Flight Training around the GTA

[Ivan42]

Hi everyone,

After saving up and debating for a few years, I've finally decided to take the plunge and get my Rec Pilot License and then hopefully, once I have some more money, work my way up to a PPL.

I love aviation and have followed it since I was a kid, so the feeling of finally being able to learn how to pilot - and hopefully one day - fly on my own is incredible. I'm sure many of you have felt the same.

I live in Toronto so Island Air is ideal, being a 30 minute commute via public transit; however, I'm willing to take a few days off work every now and then to attend other schools if there's a significant difference in experience and if other schools are much better than Island Air.

I took a tour of the flight school and had mixed feelings about it. I don't mind that the facilities are a bit sketchy since the three main factors for myself are the instructors, the planes and the ground school. The planes seem very good and the trainers were friendly. I have no comparison to make though and I have no idea how the school rates. YTZ is also a bit busy as well and I'm not sure how that plays into learning...

Does anyone here have experience, or has heard about, the pros and cons of the school? If you know of any instructors there please let me know, especially ones that have a keen interest in training.

This is massively important to me, especially the quality of instruction. I've scheduled another familiarisation flight in Waterloo and will try to get to Buttonville when I can. If there's a big difference in quality between the schools, I'm willing to sacrifice, take a few days off and commute.

Apologies for the long post...and thanks for any advice and/or assistance that you can provide, it's hugely appreciated.

[DaveC]

I'd suggest Buttonville or Oshawa. It's going to take you 0.4-0.5 just to get to the practice area from CYTZ. If you're on a budget you want to get the best bang for your buck.

[Ivan42]

I'd suggest Buttonville or Oshawa. It's going to take you 0.4-0.5 just to get to the practice area from CYTZ. If you're on a budget you want to get the best bang for your buck.

Thanks for the reply! Are there any other considerations between Buttonville and the Island other than money? I have the TC minimum + 20% saved up.

I've been thinking about Buttonville and will schedule a tour there for next week.

[DaveC]

Time - the more time you throw at it, the faster you'll finish. TC minimums are NOT realistic, so be sure to continue saving.

[Duffman]

TC minimums are NOT realistic

What's your reasoning behind that? I did my PPL in 45 hours, other people at the school I trained at did also. Is it common place for a student to take longer?

[Ivan42]

Time - the more time you throw at it, the faster you'll finish. TC minimums are NOT realistic, so be sure to continue saving.

Fair point - it's a bummer that you have to pay for transit to the training area with Island Air.

Cost wise, yeah, I'm estimating 2 to 3 hours additional dual and 2 hours additional solo; however, the folks I talked to at Island Air seemed confident that the Rec License could be completed at around the minimums. I hope it doesn't balloon too far off that mark. For the PPL, they said 60 hours was the average which is consistent with what I've read elsewhere.

[172sMatt]

I just started my ground training (again...different thread) at Brmpton flight center. The ground school as been very very good so far. Planes are good, instructors are great. Brampton is uncontrolled air space and it may bit easier to get out in a timely matter, so you may save a few dollars by not having to worry about ATC. It used to take me a few points to get out of waterloo to head to the training area. Good luck!

[Ivan42]

Thanks for the reply's guys!

One additional question - do instructor ratings matter? What's the difference between a Class 4 or a Class 2 for instance? Does that indicate experience? If so, should I request a Class 1 or 2 when signing up for training?

[xysn]

One additional question - do instructor ratings matter? What's the difference between a Class 4 or a Class 2 for instance? Does that indicate experience? If so, should I request a Class 1 or 2 when signing up for training?

A Class 1 does have more flight experience but might not be a better *teacher* ... I'd say personality / chemistry / ability to teach / let you learn is a bigger factor than their rating. In any case there are fewer 1s than there are 4s so it's unlikely you'll be able to get a 1 all the time anyway.

What's your reasoning behind that? I did my PPL in 45 hours, other people at the school I trained at did also. Is it common place for a student to take longer?

Depends really on the type of student. If you fly several times times a week as part of an intense program and pay attention / study you'll finish with fewer hours. If you're a weekend warrior with a day job it'll probably take longer. Even where you trained matters - as it was pointed out previously getting to the practice area could take 0.4 - over 20 flights that's 8 hours right there.

[Colonel Sanders]

do instructor ratings matter?

A class 1/2 instructor has more experience instructing, than
a class 3/4 instructor.

Is experience important to you when hiring a plumber,
electrician, lawyer or doctor?

[AOW]

Yes it is a bit of a commute from YTZ to the practice area, however a good instructor would make use of this time for some training value. That being said, you still won't see many students finishing anywhere close to minimums at YTZ.

You have to question how much your time is worth. For some the advantage of training out of YTZ outweighs the cost of extra training time, and possibly more expensive aircraft. Others will drive for 3 hours to save $5.

There are some schools where you are in the practice area immediately after takeoff, and there is no other traffic, so there are no delays involved, but at the same time if you never have to deal with another aircraft (or several) trying to use the same airport/airspace, then you aren't going to feel comfortable the first time it comes up.... Same idea flying out of an uncontrolled airport--it can be much easier, but you may not feel comfortable flying into a controlled airport.

On that note, I always thought that Guelph would be the ultimate training location... uncontrolled and not too busy so there are few delays, and you will be comfortable at an uncontrolled airport; meanwhile just a few miles away you have YKF for controlled airport practice, plenty of traffic, etc. I am speaking purely theoretically, I have no actual knowledge of any school or schools in Guelph.

As was mentioned earlier, the instructor is the key to effective training: make sure that you can work with them, and that they will be able to work with you. Will his/her schedule work with yours? And will your personalities handle sharing a small cockpit for a couple of hours at a time.

Yes, class IV instructors are the least experienced, however they are probably also the most motivated. I have met awesome class IVs and some very mediocre class Is (at least when it came to ab initio instruction... probably a case of more interest in more advanced training, and so could care less about their PPL students)... If you decide to do your training in Smith Falls (a great little airport, by the way, but a little inconvenient from downtown Toronto), I understand that there is a pretty good class 1 available there!

With respect to RPP vs PPL, don't plan on trying to do an RPP at YTZ. By the time that you meet the requirements for RPP, you probably already meet most of the PPL requirements, so keep that in mind when it comes to cost projection. Some of the other schools around may be able to get you to RPP standards in a more reasonable timeframe. Be sure to ask to see their RPP sylabus, and keep track of your progress in relation to it, so there is no surprise when your $$$ start running out and your instructor announces, "great job, you're half-way through the programme!"

Good luck!

[Dagwood]

I have the TC minimum + 20% saved up.

Whatever you do...

DO NOT PUT YOUR MONEY ON ACCOUNT AT A FLIGHT SCHOOL.

Rather, pay as you go. With money on account, there is a risk of not getting it back if you decide to switch flight schools, or the current flight school closes it's doors.

Also, paying as you go keeps the billing more accountable. ("Why was I charged for 1.0 ground time today? I thought it was more like 20 minutes... ")

[bauhaus_concept]

If you're in the east end of the GTA try doing your Ground School at Buttonville and your in-flight training at Oshawa. I just finished my ground school at Buttonville because it wasn't too far from where I live via car. Oshawa offers way more competitive pricing for in-flight training and they're a little closer to the training area than Buttonville.

I haven't done anything past visit Toronto Island's flight school but the prices there were insanely inflated and I could imagine the commute to/from the training area would be quite high compared to other alternatives in the GTA.

[Ivan42]

Thanks for the tips!!
I'll carry on with my gameplan for now and try to visit as many training schools as I can, some of the advice here is really useful. I was originally planning on paying in blocks but will avoid that now.

And thanks, AOW, I have a lot more questions to ask the schools...I'll visit Waterloo and Buttonville and look into Guelph. And I'll re-visit YTZ to get a clearer idea of what's involved and if/how they'll be able to suit.

[Ivan42]

If you're in the east end of the GTA try doing your Ground School at Buttonville and your in-flight training at Oshawa. I just finished my ground school at Buttonville because it wasn't too far from where I live via car. Oshawa offers way more competitive pricing for in-flight training and they're a little closer to the training area than Buttonville.

I haven't done anything past visit Toronto Island's flight school but the prices there were insanely inflated and I could imagine the commute to/from the training area would be quite high compared to other alternatives in the GTA.

Do you have any suggestions for instructors/people I could speak to/people you trust at Oshawa? I'll definitely look into it

[MIQ]

TC minimums are NOT realistic, so be sure to continue saving.

While I understand what you're generally trying to say, I have to disagree with that. Yes, on an average it takes people more time to finish their license but that has more to do with their personal schedules and effort they put into it as opposed to it just being generally not realistic. I finished my PPL with 47 hours (at YTZ) and so did a few other people that I know (below or around 50 hours). I would say that if you'll be able to manage to go flying at least twice a week and always show up prepared to your lessons, you should be able to finish your license close to the published minimums. If you decide to go once a week, take two weeks off, and then go again one time and keep doing that, then you will be more realistically looking at +70hrs. Also speaking about showing up prepared, make sure you don't get ripped off in ground briefings / waste money there. Yes you will want to go over the the planned exercises for the upcoming lessons with your instructor, but the less you know about what you're going to do, the more time has to spend your instructor explaining it to you. If you're on track and read ahead in 'From The Ground Up' and the 'Flight Training Manual', you'll be able to save quite some time in ground briefings. Also for the ground school, you can do your PPL ground school online (http://www.pilottraining.ca/) which can save you a buck or two, especially in commuting and time, unless you really like a classroom setting.
For the flight school, I find Island Air very expensive (even for Toronto) and you can get a better deal at one of the other schools. I'm currently training towards my Multi IFR at a small airport outside of Toronto and don't miss the Island Airport setting at all. The airport itself is very scenic but in my opinion it is not the best for training purposes. If I was you, I would also check out Brampton (http://www.bramptonflightcentre.com/), Buttonville (http://www.torontoairways.com/), Markham (http://www.canadianflyers.com/) and Burlington (http://www.spectrumairways.com/).
Another tip at the end, whatever school you choose and you don't feel happy/comfortable with your instructor, ask to get a different instructor! You're a paying customer at the school and have the right to fly with a person, that you feel comfortable with. A good/bad instructor can have a big influence on your training and learning results. Plus you don't want to share that tiny plane with a person you don't get along with
Good luck choosing the right school and have fun on you journey in becoming a pilot, it's a great experience!

[JungianJugular]

I met a guy the other day who said the practice area at Brampton Flight School is 15 minutes away from the airport.

Is this true?

That's a lot of money to be paying for just to fly out over a practice area over the course of PPL training or any other license for that matter.

Spectrum, on the other hand, doesn't have such distance to fly for practice runs. Yes/No?

[YYZSaabGuy]

I met a guy the other day who said the practice area at Brampton Flight School is 15 minutes away from the airport. Is this true?

10-15 minutes is a pretty accurate estimate: BFC's practice area is a quadrangle bounded by Orangeville, Shelburne, Luther Lake and Belwood Lake. Not sure where Spectrum's practice area is, or what the transit time is, but BFC compares favourably I believe to Buttonville and Billy Bishop. Of course, as has been pointed out previously, it'd be a mistake to regard transit time as wasted time - my instructors never had a problem keeping me busy with briefings, weather discussions, pointers, and practice maneuvers (slips, etc.) as we were en route. Consider it a warm-up for the maneuvering you'll be undertaking in the practice area.

[slam525i]

Ivan, check your PM. Especially if you're interested in going to CYOO.

As for whether the class for instructor matter, yes, they should have more experience, but I've met Class 1 instructors that boast about their rating while having no fundamental knowledge of aerodynamics. I've had one tell me to always land C172s flat because it'll tail-strike. (It won't. It can't. In a stabilized condition, the critical AOA is less than the angle at which the tail strikes. It's part of the design. To tail strike a 172, you have to abruptly pull back near the ground.) He also had no idea why I lightly "ping" the prop on the walk-around.

[Colonel Sanders]

I've met Class 1 instructors that boast about their rating while having no fundamental knowledge of aerodynamics

I suspect he was an even worse class 4 instructor
when he first started instructing.

You might theorize that he started off as a skilled
class 4 instructor that continually lost knowledge
as he gained experience, but I don't really think
that's the case.

Yes, there are lots of donkeys out there that hold
all classes of instructor ratings, but for every bad
class 1 instructor, there was once a truly horrible
class 4 instructor.

Overwhelmingly, people with more experience at
doing something - anything - have more knowledge
and skill about that activity, than they had when
they first started doing it.

[coreydotcom]

For what it's worth I have dealt with a Class 3 and Class 4 and both were amazing teachers. I have no class 1 / 2's to compare them with because I only have experience with those two instructors but both were awesome (class 3 and class 4).

The class 4 was a younger guy but very very professional. He gave some portions of the ground school and was very professional in every aspect and just seemed like a guy who took his job seriously.

The class 3 was an older guy with experience in "the real world" who decided instructing would be a good retirement job. Amazing as well. I am doing my training with him (in the process of obtaining my PPL) and I really understand when he teaches me something in-flight (and on the ground).

My 2 cents.

[slam525i]

Colonel, the absolute worst part of your post, and the part that scares me the most?

You're right.

I shudder at the thought of what incompetence and misunderstandings have come from his instruction over the years. I think the point is evaluate each instructor individually, for both skill and personality match-up.

[Colonel Sanders]

what incompetence and misunderstandings have come from his instruction over the years

Over time, you get what you pay for. $8/hr doesn't get you much.

evaluate each instructor individually, for both skill and personality match-up

Good advice. However, I might point out that you are looking
for an instructor:

1) that knows enough about what he is doing, and
2) can transfer that knowledge and skills to you

Note that you don't need the instructor to be your
New Best Friend. You aren't Brian Wilson looking for
a New Pal to hang out with and write cool new songs.

Often the very best teachers are not easy on their
students, and are not always their best friends.

[Ivan42]

what incompetence and misunderstandings have come from his instruction over the years

Over time, you get what you pay for. $8/hr doesn't get you much.

evaluate each instructor individually, for both skill and personality match-up

Often the very best teachers are not easy on their
students, and are not always their best friends.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. How do you get that feel though?

So, overall, for my future familiarisation flights I should ask for Class 1 and Class 2? I mean, maybe the rating doesn't matter but I'd rather lean towards more experience than less. I guess my overall question should be: "how many students have you taught and can you give me an estimate of the average time it takes to obtain a license with you?"

[Colonel Sanders]

How do you get that feel though?

The same way you would hire a plumber or electrician.

Ask to talk to his last 3 customers. Odds are you will
have pretty much the same experience as they did.

for my future familiarisation flights I should ask for Class 1 and Class 2?

You can ask, but it is highly likely the FTU will chortle
in response. They charge you the same for a class 4
and a class 1, and pay the class 4 a fraction of what
they pay the class 1.

Which one do you think the FTU wants you to fly with?