Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
Seneca has some serious systemic problems
Could be, but they have paper, so I'm not sure many people care.
Maybe not many, but if a few typed words on the internet changed maybe even one potential student's mind about how or where they should learn to fly, then all those furious keystrokes were not in vain.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Cat Driver »

the airplane will tell you, just allow it to weathervane into the wind and crab down final until correcting to a slip short final.
Considering an airplane in flight is not directly attached to a stationary object maybe the use of the word " weathervane " could cause some misunderstanding among some newcomers to aviation?
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Brown Bear
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Brown Bear »

pdw wrote:I don't buy the statements that all winds/crosswinds for landing can be 'seen and/or felt' accurately without indication, .. esp if you are that new student or a newer instructor teaching the new student.

As Doc would say, "Go flip burgers..."
:bear: :bear:
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by sky's the limit »

Brown Bear wrote:
pdw wrote:I don't buy the statements that all winds/crosswinds for landing can be 'seen and/or felt' accurately without indication, .. esp if you are that new student or a newer instructor teaching the new student.

As Doc would say, "Go flip burgers..."
:bear: :bear:


ANY, and ALL aircraft will tell the pilot EXACTLY what the wind is doing directionally, vertically, and the strength of both components. You simply have to know how to fly it in order to read it properly - it is THE basis of good mountain flying technique, which is critical in our work. Whether FW or RW, the aircraft can and will tell you everything you need to know about the environment in order to assess a potential landing place, runway, gravel bar, mountain top, or anything else you can imagine.

One from a number of years ago - SO fortunate for the last second wind check by the controller... Not sure how it would have turned out otherwise.


IMG_0277copy.jpg
IMG_0277copy.jpg (164.55 KiB) Viewed 3051 times
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pto
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by pto »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:This has to be the stupidest fu.kin thread ever to have been seen on the internet.
I disagree. I think Seneca has some serious systemic problems in how they are running their program. Most of the posts make what in my opinion are valid points on why this "accident" is anything but. In addition I would suggest that for those contemplating going to this college, this thread represents information they might wish to consider.....
Agreed.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by 126.7_STFU »

As of this year, the military seems to have a raging hardon for Seneca grads. As discussed in another thread, there is an entry plan tailored specifically for them because it will help cut CF training costs! So, are they doing something right ... or have they invested too much coin into a propaganda machine that would make gobbels jealous?
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by pdw »

sky's the limit wrote:ANY, and ALL aircraft will tell the pilot EXACTLY what the wind is doing directionally, vertically, and the strength of both components. You simply have to know how to fly it in order to read it properly - it is THE basis of good mountain flying technique, which is critical in our work. Whether FW or RW, the aircraft can and will tell you everything you need to know about the environment in order to assess a potential landing place, runway, gravel bar, mountain top, or anything else you can imagine.
Nice landing pic. I'd be glad if I could get that good at flipping a burger on the spot.

It's a good visual to see the chopper touched-down on the precise location. 1000 times less area required. Nearing touchdown it is moving very slowly to arrest at landing, already very close for the final 30 seconds of approach.

The fixed wing is traveling a mile or two on final to get to its safe touchdown point in that time. A double shear in its landing process can be transitioned rapidly (like when clearing trees on final to the 2K grass strip with an old fashioned windsock meandering in the far distance), eg: where IAS rises abruptly and then falls abruptly or visa-versa on the chosen decent angle. Can't see the helicopter ever having a lift-interruption in that way. The rpms (relativewinds to the rotary wing) are always under control ... aren't they?. (I'm not a helicopter pilot)
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by old_man »

pdw wrote:
It's a good visual to see the chopper touched-down on the precise location. 1000 times less area required. Nearing touchdown it is moving very slowly to arrest at landing, already very close for the final 30 seconds of approach.

The fixed wing is traveling a mile or two on final to get to its safe touchdown point in that time. A double shear in its landing process can be transitioned rapidly (like when clearing trees on final to the 2K grass strip with an old fashioned windsock meandering in the far distance), eg: where IAS rises abruptly and then falls abruptly or visa-versa on the chosen decent angle. Can't see the helicopter ever having a lift-interruption in that way. The rpms (relativewinds to the rotary wing) are always under control ... aren't they?. (I'm not a helicopter pilot)
I'll flat out say it. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Expand your mind. Start thinking that winds (especially in mountains) not only flow horizontally but vertically as well. They also change minute to minute and vary greatly from location to location. In an approach like STL's things can go bad in the last 5 seconds, let alone 30 seconds, if the exact winds aren't 'felt out' ahead of time.

If you'll notice in STL's photo there were no wind socks, no wunderground weather stations, and no 'experts' such as yourself give last second wind corrections nor giving advice about how to deal with that tripple wind shear inverse on shore flow pattern.

It is up to the pilot to figure out the winds and deal with them.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by JigglyBus »

I still can't decide if this person has brought trolling to a new level, or he actually believes the words that he's writing.

Landing a cessna on a 2k strip is harder than landing a helicopter on the spot in the picture????????

I can't believe that I'm responding to this...... I'm pretty sure the joke is on me.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by pdw »

Jiggly Bus wrote: Landing a cessna on a 2K strip is harder ...
No. Not usually ... unless maybe going in over trees to target the threshold of a rolling field where an occluded front might be still lingering ... behind a larger LO (intensified) well to the east.


old_man wrote:... things can go bad in the last 5 seconds, let alone 30 seconds ...
That is also possible in the fixed wing "in 5 seconds", here in that context of those "30 seconds" of late approach, (the surprise shear event with no prior warning).
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by trey kule »

pdw..

Occluded fronts? Intensified LOs..yeah , those are considerations when you are landing.....you are a seneca grad right?
:smt040

I know our pre landing briefings always go something like this.

PF. There is a an occluded front just beyond the airport, and an intensified LO nearby. The field length is 2000 feet.
The runway is rolling. We will plan a straight in approach using short field technique to insure safe decelaration in our 172. Approach speed 65 kts. Special consideration for winds in the last 30 and 5 seconds of the approach due to the briefed weather. We will be landing in 15 minutes so use the abbreviated pre landing checklist. Questions?

PNF. Is an intensified lo something like a red bull mixed with diet cola?

PF. Affirmative.
Flaps to 30
Pre landing checklist

If you are not trolling, I am embarrassed for you.
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Last edited by trey kule on Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Seems to me answering pdw is just feeding a troll. I think we should all just ignore his poor misguided attempts to talk pilot talk until he goes away.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Cat Driver »

I find his/her posts to be entertaining.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by ftp »

Doc wrote:Not going to pretend to point fingers in the direction of "why" Seneca is having way more than an acceptable number of deaths/accidents/incidents, BUT if the commercial aviation world had an operation with this dismal a safety record there would be a TC investigation. Nobody's perfect, but I can think of way too many Seneca incidents. They are indeed a "puppy mill" and a very dangerous one at that. I realize TC is making like an ostrich these days, but C'MON MAN! These "gifts" to aviation are an embarrassment to the industry. They're making Keystone look pretty good?
I don't know where they're getting their instructors, but it's time to shop elsewhere.
Wow, Doc I've never met you and hope I never do. Good and bad products can come out of all schools, the 5% rule applies there, the same as anywhere else. Your generalizations make you look like a bitter man.

Sanders - They are being cheap on their instructors? Is that based on anything? When I was a student there, the least qualified, seasonal contract instructor was a class 2. I was an instructor at another school and Seneca offered me close to what I was making for the whole year to come back and work Monday-Friday with 4 ppl students as a summer contract. I didn't want to work there because it was such a good job that there was no upward movement, as no one was leaving. They probably pay double the pathetic industry average for instructors.

All schools have screw ups, both with employees and students. I couldn't agree more with you that there is a lack of leadership and experience at flight schools. But this is the wallmart world that we live in. People will fly with shitty airlines to save $5. I think the best we can hope for is good mentorship and supervision from those with experience. Do condescending a$$holes on the internet solve any of these problems?

I don't come on here much, maybe I've just taken the bait from a few tolls.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Cat Driver »

When you were there did they still leave the gear down on the Beech Barons when doing circuits so it would not wear out the gear parts ftp?
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by ftp »

Cat - Ha! I did hear about that, nope, I think I was there a few years before I read about that. If that had been the case, I agree, stupid thing to do. You should train as you fly. What is it on pistons again? Prop-Flap-Gear. Stuff like that should be ingrained in everyone at that stage and not skipped.

I've only been working in planes with gpws's for a while, but still will always glance at the gear through 500' (when in a friends homebuilt) and again when the planes talks to me.

Sure, Seneca is far far from perfect, but there are equal horror stories at most flight schools (When I instructed my pet peeve was financial abuse in the name of safety...when the real cause was instructor incompetence).

In a perfect worlds we would have privates taught in tail-draggers, with experienced instructors, and 704 level training captains doing initial multi and ifr training, and atpl's would be mandatory for a 705 fo. But again, we live in a wall mart world, so that's not the reality. I just get my back up about generalizations regarding whole groups of people being an 'embarrassment to the industry'.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Colonel Sanders »

They are being cheap on their instructors? Is that based on anything?
Well, since you asked ... the PIC of the nighttime Bonanza
fatal Seneca crash had a proud class 1 instructor rating ...

and only 7 hours actual instrument time.

He lost control of the aircraft at night, and everyone on
board died.

This recent accident with a Seneca instructor in a 172
is not exactly an impressive display of skill, either.

Free advice: get someone with a little bit more real-world
experience, and a little bit more skill and knowledge to teach -
at least, if you're going to posture as a premium school.

This might cost a little bit more, but what is your life worth?
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by ftp »

I completely agree about the experience aspect. But money is a great way to attract talent. And what school pays more?

My point is these are system wide problems, nothing unique to just one school. The MPL is another example of how the whole industry is headed in the wrong direction.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Cat Driver »

You should train as you fly. What is it on pistons again? Prop-Flap-Gear. Stuff like that should be ingrained in everyone at that stage and not skipped.
In what phase of flight is " Prop-Flap-Gear " taught?

On what type of airplane and for what reason?
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by ftp »

Cat- single pilot piston twin on final.

Sort of like looking at the stab and flap setting when taking position on a runway.


Sorry about contributing to some thread drift here....Hopefully all involved are ok, and not much more than a few eqo's are damaged.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Cat Driver »

We all do things differently I guess ftp, during normal approaches and landings I always leave the props in cruise pitch during the approach and do not move the prop levers ahead until I close the throttles for the landing...then they go full forward.

Thread drift is not really a problem as long as the drift is about flying.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by jump154 »

Cat Driver wrote:Thread drift is not really a problem as long as the drift is about flying.
The trick with Internet flying is to be able to feel the thread drift through your keyboard, and not have to rely on a Moderator giving you a last minute thread drift check before posting, a problem low time posters often have......
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by ftp »

I assume you keep the rpm back for wear/noise? No arguments from me, it's all airmanship of being nice to your equipment. In the turboprops we just set climb props until the rollout or go-around. I haven't flown or really thought about a constant speed prop in a few years...so I'm really no expert.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Cat Driver »

Yes the reason I do not increase RPM during the approach is to lessen wear on the engines and there is no increased noise from increased RPM.
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Re: Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

Post by Colonel Sanders »

these are system wide problems, nothing unique to just one school
As Brian Mulroney once famously opined, you can't suck and blow at the same time.

Seneca positions itself as a premium training facility. You argue that it
is just another flight school, with all the problems associated with all the
other flight schools.

Doesn't sound very premium to me.
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