"Solo" Flight Time definition

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Panama Jack
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"Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Panama Jack »

I was just doing a little bit of research of the definition of "Solo Flight Time" in CAR 400.1, on what I thought would be a very cut and dry definition (ie. the sole-occupant of the aircraft). My reading of the definition, though, left me with some doubt:
"solo flight time" means, with respect to the flight time necessary to acquire a permit, licence or rating,
(amended 2003/06/01; no previous version)

(a) in the case of a pilot, the flight time during which the pilot is the sole flight crew member, and

(b) in the case of a student pilot permit holder, the flight time during which the holder is the sole occupant of an aircraft while under the direction and supervision of the holder of an instructor rating for the appropriate category of aircraft; (temps de vol en solo)


In the case of the student pilot, it is indeed very clear and the definition is as expected.

The surprise comes with definition (a). It seems to suggest that if the applicant who is already a licence or permit holder, then there there can be more than one occupant on board the aircraft and the pilot can still log it as "solo." I am curious to know whether Transport Canada interprets the presence of a person who has an Instructor Rating on board the aircraft which is type certificated for one pilot, and who is simply "riding along" as a passenger and not acting in the capacity of an instructor, complies with definition (a)?
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KK7
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by KK7 »

The definition in (a) above would apply to someone who is working towards something like their commercial licence. It isn't uncommon for someone to bring along another pilot on their commercial cross country to fly the return portion. This counts as "solo" time since it is flight time necessary to acquire a permit.

From what I understand of your question, you're asking if it can still count as "solo" if the passenger has an instructor rating? I don't know what TC's interpretation of it would be, but the student logging "solo" time would still be the PIC, unlike when receiving proper instruction where the instructor is PIC and the student logs it as "dual".
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iflyforpie
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by iflyforpie »

Tough to say.

I know that during my CPL buildup (already holding a PPL, so under (a), not (b), I'd go flying with other PPL holders--switching legs--and logged it as solo for my PIC requirement.

If that person has an instructor rating or even a CPL and time on type, it sort of gets into a grey area. It seems to follow the letter but not the spirit of the reg. The decision making process is much different at 150TT by yourself or with a passenger vs with a much more experienced pilot right next to you.
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Masters Off
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Masters Off »

Actually, I disagree. It's not grey at all.

Just like any other flight; before 'manipulation of the controls', the determination of who is PIC, SIC, Dual, Instructor, Co-pilot, or another other crew member is made.
This is backed by things such as the signing of the flight-schools log before flying or the journey log by PIC after the flight.

When gliding, even as an instructor, I often take people on mentoring flights. Before flight, it is determined that the other person is responsible for all parameters of the flight, including emergencies. I will assist if asked. They log P1, I am a passenger, and I often suggest and demonstrate different aspects of advanced soaring. It is not, in my opinion, an instructional flight. I am not teaching anything for the pursuit of a licence. They could just as easily go up on their own and practice, instead I'm just assisting them. I'm making it easier to understand some of the more specific, advanced topics.
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akoch
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by akoch »

Say you are working on the Night Rating, going solo practice. I would think one can't take a passenger along, despite having a PPL license and cleared to go "solo". All until the rating is compete and signed off. Am I correct?
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tonyhunt
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by tonyhunt »

akoch wrote:Say you are working on the Night Rating, going solo practice. I would think one can't take a passenger along, despite having a PPL license and cleared to go "solo". All until the rating is compete and signed off. Am I correct?
Until your night rating is granted, you cannot exercise the priviledges of the PPL "at night", i.e. carry passengers.
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Yup - same for float rating, multi-engine endorsement, etc.
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akoch
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by akoch »

Thanks guys. It is common sense as well.
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Bede
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Bede »

Masters Off is bang on.

TC is OK with RPP pilots having a flight instructor along for the solo x-country for the PPL. It must be clear though that the instructor is a passenger only as Masters Off said. I believe floats are different though- you don't have the authority yet to bring a passenger along yet, so you're on your own.
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Uplander
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Uplander »

I disagree with Bede.

The last time I spoke with TC at the YUL office, they do NOT authorize pilots to log solo hours when on duty instructors are on board the aircraft.

This goes against the FAA's SPIC (supervised pilot in command) concept that does allow this. In Canada SPIC is NOT recongnize nor is it authorized.

So I guess your best option would be to call your local TC inspector and ask them the question directly.
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Bede
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Bede »

Uplander,

Did you ask them to a CAR's reference to back up their opinion?
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Beefitarian »

Uplander said "on duty" wouldn't that mean you were paying the instructor? Why would be doing that if you were pilot in comand?

I'm probably off the mark as usual but seems like there might be some purpose in that wording.
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Uplander
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Uplander »

Bede wrote:Uplander,

Did you ask them to a CAR's reference to back up their opinion?
As usual the CAR's is very vague and leaves too much room for interpretation. All I know is that I have debated this issue with the YUL TC inspectors and that is what they told me.
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Uplander
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Uplander »

Beefitarian wrote:Uplander said "on duty" wouldn't that mean you were paying the instructor? Why would be doing that if you were pilot in comand?

I'm probably off the mark as usual but seems like there might be some purpose in that wording.
Once again room for interpretation. On duty does not necessarily mean that he/she is being paid...

The issue is that TC does not want flight schools putting instuctors in every aircraft when students go on solo flights because they don't trust the students ability to fly the aircraft safely.

This concept exisits in the usa under SPIC and is approved by the FAA. TC does not.
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habs.fan
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by habs.fan »

The issue is that TC does not want flight schools putting instuctors in every aircraft when students go on solo flights because they don't trust the students ability to fly the aircraft safely.
I think if the school doesn't trust the students ability to fly the aircraft safely, then TC wants the instructor to be in the plane giving instruction until it is deemed that the student can fly safely...and I hope that everyone agrees on this one! These schools are just pushing along bad pilots. They're probably the reason why I can never make a zarking position report on 126.7 because I'm hearing constant echoes of "any conflicting traffic..."
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Colonel Sanders »

TC is OK with RPP pilots having a flight instructor along for the solo x-country for the PPL
Wow. As an Authorized Person, I would never sign an
RPP or PPL off with so-called "solo" time logged like that.

The only person that ever rides along during "solo" flight of a
student pilot (whom is training for either RPP or PPL) is the
designated pilot examiner, during a flight test.

If there is another person on board the aircraft, either

1) they are a passenger - which is specifically prohibited
by their Student Pilot Permit, or

2) they are an instructor, and the student is logging dual.

I don't see any wiggle room here.

Are you guys pulling my chain? Student pilot solo with
passengers?!
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Bede
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Bede »

Col,

I never said student pilots. I said pilots holding an RPP taking an instructor along. I don't advise it, but it happened once at our club. A club member (with an RPP) bought an airplane and asked my wife (an instructor) to go along somewhere. The flight was put in the PTR as the 150NM cross country. We asked our POI and he said it was OK. The paperwork was sent to TC and a licence came back in the mail.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Colonel Sanders »

I said pilots holding an RPP taking an instructor along
Oh ok. My bad. Yes, there are some neat licensing tricks you can
do with the RPP.

Guys around here jump through a loophole en masse: See
CAR 421.22(6) Credits:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#421_22
An applicant for a Pilot Permit - Recreational - Aeroplane who holds a valid Pilot Permit - Ultra-light Aeroplane may credit all dual and solo flight time acquired in ultra-light aeroplanes towards the experience requirement.
So, they get their ultralight pilot permit, and use that time
towards their RPP, then borrow a buddy's airplane and fly
it a bit to get the flight time for the PPL. Neat trick.

Anyways, I personally think all "solo" time should be alone
in the airplane - including the 300nm CPL x/c. But that isn't
the case, if you can bring along an instructor/passenger to
coach you through it.
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Beefitarian »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
Anyways, I personally think all "solo" time should be alone
in the airplane - including the 300nm CPL x/c. But that isn't
the case, if you can bring along an instructor/passenger to
coach you through it.
I'm undecided on that.

If two pilots go together the passenger can keep their mouth shut and not help. Then again it sounds like there are guys with PPLs that need a safety net.

1- They should not be alowed because, the point of the exercise is to prove you're actually capable of getting that far from the nest alone.

2- People are not honest enough to do a second trip alone if they used the net.
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by the_cr »

Not to throw the discussion off track, but there was a brief period in the early 60's that a flying school in northern ontario was authorized to send instructors on duty with students to fly a solo xc. There had been many issues with students getting lost in the area of Armstrong and Sioux Lookout. I don't believe this continued for very long and I certainly would be leery about someone being signed off earning their xc time that way :rolleyes:
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Colonel Sanders »

These days, anyone with a cell phone in their GPS
has the x/c nav answers right there. Heading,
time enroute, etc. Why you would need anyone
else in the airplane mystifies me. If you don't like
flying, why are you getting your pilot licence?

To me, next to surface acro, the next best thing
you can do in an airplane is fuel the mother up
and head off on a 1000nm x/c - as the sole occupant
of the aircraft.

Bonus points for leaving the radio turned off, and
not climbing above 500 AGL. That's my favorite
way to get to/from Key West in the Pitts, which
is where the journey begins.

Here's a secret for you: If the weather is good,
and the aircraft is running well, and you have lots
of gas, flying is actually quite pleasant. And boring.

So why not get your @ss alone in an airplane
that isn't a piece of junk and fly someplace a long
way away when the weather is good? Keep an eye
on the headwind and plan your fuel stops so you're
never stressed about the fuel. Watch your groundspeed
with your GPS.

If you don't enjoy the above, find something else to do.
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Masters Off »

One thing I did notice. I've kept in touch with the Cadet program in Central Region-Ontario area. When I did my flight training there was no GPS in the aircraft. Just this past year, talking to a few of the students, they all mentioned that their solo-xc flight was simple. Get off course? no worries! There's the magic feature for that: "Direct-Enter-Enter". That really took all the fun out of scrambling to figure out your location, speed/distance/time every 15 minutes. That sure had me busy a few years back. Now they really don't think. It's too bad I wasn't there to pull the garmin's circuit breaker. Maybe then they'd have to think.

I believe in mentoring past the initial licence. I have no problem flying with a new PPL/RPL/GPL/CPL and teach them something new, or even just going along for a ride. I don't encourage being an instructor-passenger to a student pilot. Certain things have to be done solo.
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by akoch »

I think the times moved on. While it is still important to have the map reading and navigational skills, these are of lesser importance than mastery of the modern navigational aids. Scrambling and spending most of the time with the trivial task of time/distance calculation does little to make one a safer pilot, has little to do with flying as well. Otherwise why don't we advocate for doing same but without a pencil or calculator, or even a map to stay truer to the roots. While at it fly without the avionics and engine instrumentation altogether - hey that's what the real pilot is supposed to do. If we were taught one way, it does not mean it is the only way or is even a better way. It is just the way things are.
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by Masters Off »

If you like flying without the pencil, map/charts, E6B, engine instruments and avionics, I'm sorry, I won't be flying in the same sky with you. I don't think that makes you any more "true" of a pilot. I just realize that some of us didn't have the fortune of using a GPS since our first flight, and I appreciate learning without it. I enjoy the "roots" flying of hands and feet with an older model tail-wheel such as a Super-cub. I also appreciate the capability that GPS provides in the VFR and IFR world, working on things that are xc capable or for work.

I don't think training is required to have GPS for the PPL/RPL. It's nice, easier to understand than the Pilotage, Dead recogning, VOR/ADF/DME package. Beyond the PPL, absolutely. For commercial work, it can be very important. Essential for IFR. I'm sure the colonel and many of the people writing here will agree with that.
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Re: "Solo" Flight Time definition

Post by akoch »

I am also a product of the flight training here, so I learnt without the GPS using the magic-wheel, etc doing nav logs and paper charts, looking up things in CFS if need to. Do I think it makes me a safer pilot vs spending the same effort on learning in-depth the actual equipment and modern tools available? I think not. I prefer to have mu eyes outside, spending as little time as necessary on the tasks secondary to flying such as navlogs. Using the electronic aids is more practical for me.

Pilotage (sic! :)), dead reckoning are much more primitive and easier concepts to understand. And realistically everyone has them in the toolset "just in case". But to spend so much time on it....
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