Ottawa small plane crash. No injuries.

[Colonel Sanders]

Ok but anybody know "why" she aborted?

I'll email you, Peter. You will cry when you find out why a
perfectly good airplane is now a wreck.

Needless to say, it had nothing to do with a bird strike,
regardless what the "experts" here claim

Nothing at all is tough about smith falls or rockcliffe. Lots of room for light aircraft.

Exactly! All of the accidents I can recall at both are 100%
pilot error. Last week a Cessna XL had no problem operating
off the 4000 feet at CYSH, which I also use for the L39's:

http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/L39_grin.wmv

They should put up a sign at Smiths Falls (Miramar), "LOCALS ONLY"

You're welcome to come here and do this with us -
as wing, naturally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVXWiIrTZlg4

[woodzi]

Lay off the bird strikes.

I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I only asked that we show the pilot a little respect - especially when we had no idea what happened.

I am done here.

[Colonel Sanders]

Woodzi wrote:

Maybe she hit a bird and decided to abort? There a lot of things that might have happened that were not pilot error, and even if it was "the pilot walked away uninjured" so she did something right.

Taking that one piece at a time:

Maybe she hit a bird and decided to abort?

Nope

There a lot of things that might have happened that were not pilot error

Can't think of a single one

even if it was "the pilot walked away uninjured"

The tank-like construction of the Mooney could be thanked for that.

so she did something right

I'm grasping but coming up empty.


If pilots spent half the time developing skill that they spent on
creating excuses, everyone would fly like Bob Hoover.

[Beefitarian]

even if it was "the pilot walked away uninjured"

The tank-like construction of the Mooney could be thanked for that.

so she did something right

I'm grasping but coming up empty.

Bought a Mooney!

[Colonel Sanders]

Bought a Mooney!

and I guess that's why I'm p1ssed about this. What
did that perfectly good airplane do, to deserve to be
treated like that?

Imagine walking down the street, and you see someone
kicking their dog. The reaction from the crowd here might
be, "I'm sure glad he didn't hurt his foot! Good job!"

My reaction might be a little different.

[coreydotcom]

Honest question: Any reason we can't find out what happened CS?

I have about 18-20h, so I am in no position to judge anyone, but I don't plan on dying soon so I have a keen interest in accident causes so I can try and avoid the same pilot errors?

If it is a stupid error, what's the point in not saying? I guess people are too sensitive on here? When I do something stupid in the plane, my instructor says stuff like "do that alone, and i'll speak at your funeral", or "that was stupid".

[Rookie50]

Honest question: Any reason we can't find out what happened CS?

I have about 18-20h, so I am in no position to judge anyone, but I don't plan on dying soon so I have a keen interest in accident causes so I can try and avoid the same pilot errors?

If it is a stupid error, what's the point in not saying? I guess people are too sensitive on here? When I do something stupid in the plane, my instructor says stuff like "do that alone, and i'll speak at your funeral", or "that was stupid".

At 20 hr tt, to have a keen interest in accident causes is unusually wise -- I had that interest then and still have it at 500 hrs. I also realize from experience, that if I slacked off my routine, I am quite capable of many kinds of fatal stupidity, and am less complacent now than at 100 hrs. I study accidents to study the human behavior that leads to them, to raise my own awareness, and study my own habits.

I personally debrief every flight, and almost every flight I could have done something a bit better, or I made a tiny mistake. BTW, Anyone who says they make zero mistakes on their flights, all the time is deluded or a liar. The point is to learn from them. ( and don't make a big one!)

My advice to you is, cultivate this kind of attitude -- to study yourself, other pilots, and causes of accidents. Not guaranteed, but hopefully you will then never be an article in the news.

[Colonel Sanders]

Any reason we can't find out what happened CS?

Ok, this is public knowledge now:

Pilot did not remove engine air inlet plugs before takeoff. Pilot
aborted takeoff after noticing high engine temps during takeoff
roll.

Data point: about 10 years ago, one of the brighter student
pilots here at CYSH (NOT MINE!) decided to take off and do
some solo circuits in a 172 with the cowl plugs still in.

After he landed, mechanic examined engine and found ONE
cracked cylinder, which might have been cracked before.

That's it.

Back to the latest wreck at CYRO:

This was NOT a "good job", ok?

As always, this was 100% pilot error:

1) to not remove cowl plugs (inadequate walkaround), and
2) to discontinue the takeoff with inadequate runway remaining.

re (2) above: see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_field_takeoff

The rejected takeoff initial actions speed V1, is the fastest speed at which the pilot must take the first actions to reject the takeoff. At speeds below V1 the aircraft may be brought to a halt before the end of the runway. At V1 the pilot must continue the takeoff even if an emergency is recognized.

for some more information about rejected takeoffs.

[Cat Driver]

At V1 the pilot must continue the takeoff even if an emergency is recognized.

This statement is not entirely true.

If you have far more runway ahead of you than you require to come to a complete stop on the runway and you see a problem that may become truly unsafe in the air common sense dictates you reject the take off even if you are at V1.

I would rather be sitting stopped on a runway in an airplane than be flying one that had a problem that might require an off airport landing.

[burhead1]

Any reason we can't find out what happened CS?

Ok, this is public knowledge now:

Pilot did not remove engine air inlet plugs before takeoff. Pilot
aborted takeoff after noticing high engine temps during takeoff
roll.

Data point: about 10 years ago, one of the brighter student
pilots here at CYSH (NOT MINE!) decided to take off and do
some solo circuits in a 172 with the cowl plugs still in.

After he landed, mechanic examined engine and found ONE
cracked cylinder, which might have been cracked before.

That's it.

Back to the latest wreck at CYRO:

This was NOT a "good job", ok?

As always, this was 100% pilot error:

1) to not remove cowl plugs (inadequate walkaround), and
2) to discontinue the takeoff with inadequate runway remaining.

re (2) above: see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_field_takeoff

The rejected takeoff initial actions speed V1, is the fastest speed at which the pilot must take the first actions to reject the takeoff. At speeds below V1 the aircraft may be brought to a halt before the end of the runway. At V1 the pilot must continue the takeoff even if an emergency is recognized.

for some more information about rejected takeoffs.

Were you taking to her about your Pitts stories while she was trying to do he walk-around?

[old_man]

To give an example about what Cat is talking about.
Remember this guy? Well it happened just after being airborne and the pilot put it back down on the ground. Sometimes can be even better to eat a little bit of grass and some fencing than getting airborne. That and V1 really only refers to engine out scenarios...not all emergencies.

[cgzro]

The other thing that is possible here, and I'm only speculating, is that the runup was done very very quickly so the climbing CHT was not observed until into the take-off run. A normal runup from cold which takes 5 minutes or so would likely have shown an abnormal CHT climb rate well before take-off.

As they say, accidents take 2-3 mistakes to happen. Very unfortunate, glad she walked away unharmed of course.

Peter

[Rookie50]

I was curious why this wouldn't have shown then, in the run-up.

[pelmet]

It is not uncommon for a walkaround to be done and then go somewhere else for a while, perhaps to get a passenger, take a leak or talk to FSS. It is a good idea just before getting into the plane to go, to take one last look around.

Just a general review....chocks are gone, tiedowns removed, access doors closed, towbar removed, no one drove into a wingtip while I was gone, oil was good, fuel was good and checked, flight plan filed, stuff for your unique aircraft or airport requirements.

It probably would have caught this.

[jpilot77]

Once saw a Jetstream 31 ingest it's cowl plug on engine start. Apparently the Copilot didn't take his out and the Captain didn't notice. Nice smoke show, and they had to replace the engine.

[pelmet]

At V1 the pilot must continue the takeoff even if an emergency is recognized.

This statement is not entirely true.

If you have far more runway ahead of you than you require to come to a complete stop on the runway and you see a problem that may become truly unsafe in the air common sense dictates you reject the take off even if you are at V1.

I would rather be sitting stopped on a runway in an airplane than be flying one that had a problem that might require an off airport landing.

Off subject really but V1 does not apply to light aircraft like this. Some sort of reject or continue point or speed can be chosen by the pilot based on some performance charts or experience, specific conditions, and a particular runway which you can of course call V1 if you like but in officialdom, if you happen to care about that, it is something different.

As stated, if an aircraft is considered to be unsafe or unable to fly, it is considered to be appropriate to reject above V1.

Unless of course it is less safe to reject as in these two locations that I have been to. One is a regularly used offstrip site, the second an actual airport. A high speed rejected takeoff could be problematic. Ahhh....the good old days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gzp6BtiF7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_xTWpxW3Gs

[Colonel Sanders]

Of course, V1 (balanced field) applies to multi-engine aircraft.

Duh.

I included that link to just get the newbies thinking.

Here's a scenario for you: Taking off at CYRO in your M20J
and at 3000 feet down the 3,300 foot runway you glance over
and notice that the oil pressure is zero.

What to do? I understand that everyone here would pull
the throttle - try to save the engine - and crash off the end of
the runway, and expect a "Great Job!" from AvCan.

Not me. Throttle all the way forward and fly a tight circuit with
an immediate landing on a runway. Why?

Well, it might be a gauge problem. Wouldn't be the first time
someone fed me bad information. I'd watch the oil temp, of
course, and see if climbs, confirming the loss of oil pressure.

Another reason I would keep going is that you can run a Lycoming
for an awfully long time without any oil pressure. You probably
think that after ten seconds of zero oil pressure, the bearings
are toast, but no, you'd be wrong. Lycoming builds them better
than that. Much better.

I'd be willing to wager that I could fly an entire, tight circuit
with a successful landing back on the same runway, with zero
oil pressure.

The engine might be a bit worse for wear and tear, of course,
but at least the airframe isn't trashed, the prop isn't dinged,
and no one got hurt.

That's the decision I would make. Same as if the CHT's were
high. F__k, that's nothing. I would happily fly a circuit with
CHT's all over 500F, rather than trash the airframe and
prop and risk injuring everyone inside. Lycoming builds them
better than that.

Now, you probably think I'm a pretty sh1tty pilot compared
to you, because I wouldn't pull the throttle back on an engine
running smoothly and making good power when I really
needed it.

So Be It. Lots of people here think I'm a pretty substandard
pilot compared to them. Why shouldn't you?

[GTAFI]

Of course, V1 (balanced field) applies to multi-engine aircraft.

Duh.

I included that link to just get the newbies thinking.

Here's a scenario for you: Taking off at CYRO in your M20J
and at 3000 feet down the 3,300 foot runway you glance over
and notice that the oil pressure is zero.

What to do? I understand that everyone here would pull
the throttle - try to save the engine - and crash off the end of
the runway, and expect a "Great Job!" from AvCan.

Not me. Throttle all the way forward and fly a tight circuit with
an immediate landing on a runway. Why?

Well, it might be a gauge problem. Wouldn't be the first time
someone fed me bad information. I'd watch the oil temp, of
course, and see if climbs, confirming the loss of oil pressure.

Another reason I would keep going is that you can run a Lycoming
for an awfully long time without any oil pressure. You probably
think that after ten seconds of zero oil pressure, the bearings
are toast, but no, you'd be wrong. Lycoming builds them better
than that. Much better.

I'd be willing to wager that I could fly an entire, tight circuit
with a successful landing back on the same runway, with zero
oil pressure.

The engine might be a bit worse for wear and tear, of course,
but at least the airframe isn't trashed, the prop isn't dinged,
and no one got hurt.

That's the decision I would make. Same as if the CHT's were
high. F__k, that's nothing. I would happily fly a circuit with
CHT's all over 500F, rather than trash the airframe and
prop and risk injuring everyone inside. Lycoming builds them
better than that.

Now, you probably think I'm a pretty sh1tty pilot compared
to you, because I wouldn't pull the throttle back on an engine
running smoothly and making good power when I really
needed it.

So Be It. Lots of people here think I'm a pretty substandard
pilot compared to them. Why shouldn't you?

I would do the same. By the way, I don't think anyone here thinks that you are a "substandard pilot" compared to them (unless Sir Bob Hoover signed up on this forum), then I might have to give that one to him

[cncpc]

Of course, V1 (balanced field) applies to multi-engine aircraft.

Duh.

I included that link to just get the newbies thinking.

Here's a scenario for you: Taking off at CYRO in your M20J
and at 3000 feet down the 3,300 foot runway you glance over
and notice that the oil pressure is zero.

What to do? I understand that everyone here would pull
the throttle - try to save the engine - and crash off the end of
the runway, and expect a "Great Job!" from AvCan.

Not me. Throttle all the way forward and fly a tight circuit with
an immediate landing on a runway. Why?

Well, it might be a gauge problem. Wouldn't be the first time
someone fed me bad information. I'd watch the oil temp, of
course, and see if climbs, confirming the loss of oil pressure.

Another reason I would keep going is that you can run a Lycoming
for an awfully long time without any oil pressure. You probably
think that after ten seconds of zero oil pressure, the bearings
are toast, but no, you'd be wrong. Lycoming builds them better
than that. Much better.

I'd be willing to wager that I could fly an entire, tight circuit
with a successful landing back on the same runway, with zero
oil pressure.

The engine might be a bit worse for wear and tear, of course,
but at least the airframe isn't trashed, the prop isn't dinged,
and no one got hurt.

That's the decision I would make. Same as if the CHT's were
high. F__k, that's nothing. I would happily fly a circuit with
CHT's all over 500F, rather than trash the airframe and
prop and risk injuring everyone inside. Lycoming builds them
better than that.

Now, you probably think I'm a pretty sh1tty pilot compared
to you, because I wouldn't pull the throttle back on an engine
running smoothly and making good power when I really
needed it.

So Be It. Lots of people here think I'm a pretty substandard
pilot compared to them. Why shouldn't you?

Yah, I can agree with that view. Of course, much depends on the runway left. In the scenario, it's about a football field. Decision time and its half a football field. Much more though and I'd say even you would throttle back. The risk reward equation changes considerably with 1000 feet left.

[pelmet]

Of course, V1 (balanced field) applies to multi-engine aircraft.

Duh.

I included that link to just get the newbies thinking.

Here's a scenario for you: Taking off at CYRO in your M20J
and at 3000 feet down the 3,300 foot runway you glance over
and notice that the oil pressure is zero.

What to do? I understand that everyone here would pull
the throttle - try to save the engine - and crash off the end of
the runway, and expect a "Great Job!" from AvCan.

Not me. Throttle all the way forward and fly a tight circuit with
an immediate landing on a runway. Why?

Well, it might be a gauge problem. Wouldn't be the first time
someone fed me bad information. I'd watch the oil temp, of
course, and see if climbs, confirming the loss of oil pressure.

Another reason I would keep going is that you can run a Lycoming
for an awfully long time without any oil pressure. You probably
think that after ten seconds of zero oil pressure, the bearings
are toast, but no, you'd be wrong. Lycoming builds them better
than that. Much better.

I'd be willing to wager that I could fly an entire, tight circuit
with a successful landing back on the same runway, with zero
oil pressure.

The engine might be a bit worse for wear and tear, of course,
but at least the airframe isn't trashed, the prop isn't dinged,
and no one got hurt.

That's the decision I would make. Same as if the CHT's were
high. F__k, that's nothing. I would happily fly a circuit with
CHT's all over 500F, rather than trash the airframe and
prop and risk injuring everyone inside. Lycoming builds them
better than that.

Now, you probably think I'm a pretty sh1tty pilot compared
to you, because I wouldn't pull the throttle back on an engine
running smoothly and making good power when I really
needed it.

So Be It. Lots of people here think I'm a pretty substandard
pilot compared to them. Why shouldn't you?

Sounds like reasonable advice to me Mr. Colonel.

As for the V1 thing, it actually doesn't apply to most multis smaller than 12,500 pounds so lots of twins not covered.

[5x5]

Lots of people here think I'm a pretty substandard pilot compared to them.

I very much doubt many think that. But there could be a few that think you're a substandard warm and fuzzy person.

[Flying Nutcracker]

2 questions...

1) Does the pilot involved realize/accept the mistakes?
2) Has anyone, including pilots on this forum, learned from this?

I would feel pretty embarrassed. It would be a shot to my ego, because heaven forbid I should make a mistake! Having said that, I would be the first to admit my mistake, and the first to share my learned lessons! I wouldn't need anyone on this forum telling me what I did wrong, I would tell them!

10000+ hours, not one dented airplane and not one person hurt. But several have been scared, myself included! Experienced, but not perfect!

[PilotDAR]

xx feet down a 3300 foot runway, I'm not glancing at engine instruments, unless I'm hearing terrible sounds, feeling vibrations or seeing lots of oil (and I have had all three). If the engine seems to be running as expected, I'm going to presume that it is, and continue to a suitably safe altitude before I start fiddling, second guessing, or analyzing an engine. I once started the right engine of the Aztec, and watched for the right oil pressure to come up... and waited and waited. I was about to shut it back down, when I noticed that I had left oil pressure - but the left engine was not running! Lucky thing I noticed it on the ground, and not when the oil pressure went to zero in flight, and I shut down that engine as a precaution. Yes, any well maintained aircraft engine will get you to within gliding distance from the base leg with no oil circulating in it.

If the departure path or engine condition are so uncertain that you are really worried, then a prolonged high power run up into the wind before takeoff might reassure you, though they tend to be hard on props if the surface is loose.

I agree that the pilot should fly first, and do everything else secondarily - including not "glancing over" at engine instruments during more critical phases of flight... Sudden changes to the plan or the norm are best avoided, so don't induce them.

Cowl plugs left in a GA piston aircraft? Dumb, but continue the takeoff if you're that far along that an over run is possible. You're going to make it around a quick circuit before you do any harm. Worst case is a couple of cooked cylinders - much cheaper to fix than the whole plane!