Beef Supreme's fantasy war bird camp.

[jump154]

OK My five:

1. Spitfire
2. Mosquito
3. English Electric Lightning
4. Lancaster
5. JU-52

added bonus.. the training aircraft to get you there (yep, I'm cheating)

[Mostly Harmless]

In addition to the wonderful aircraft already mentioned, I would have to add in a P-38 Lightning and a A-26.

[cgzro]

So how is this going to be organised, and how can I get my Cadets in line

We have some meetings comming up and Ill post more when I know but likely there will be an east , central and west tour that will visit all over Canada and no doubt they will reach out to the various air cadet administrators directly as plans firm up.

[iflyforpie]

It is worth noting that the BCATP was much more effective at killing Allied pilots and destroying aircraft than the Axis powers were.

One of the more moronic statements I have seen on this Forum

Well, I am sorry that you think so and in reflection, perhaps I shouldn't have worded it that way. On further inspection, it was non-operational losses that exceeded combat losses, which included operational squadrons as well as the BCATP.

I got the information from the book 'Behind the Glory' which is about the setting up and running of the BCATP in Canada. They were lamenting the lack of citations and decorations for instructors even though the work they were doing was as dangerous if not more dangerous than doing fighter sweeps over the Western Front with almost total air superiority. Many instructors who never saw combat never got the same recognition as their students for their contribution to the war effort. That is what I meant by my statement.

As amazing as the BCATP was, it was the puppy mill of puppy mills. Pilots who just got their wings were immediately sent to instructor courses and then on to teaching students in Tiger Moths, Cornells, Harvards, and Ansons, and the attrition rates were huge.

[iflyforpie]

For my five aircraft.

1) DH Tiger Moth
2) Nanchang CJ-6
3) Spitfire
4) P-38
5) Mig 17

[MikeGolfEcho]

OK My five:

1. Spitfire
2. Mosquito
3. English Electric Lightning
4. Lancaster
5. JU-52

added bonus.. the training aircraft to get you there (yep, I'm cheating)

This is my list too... although I REALLY like the F4U Corsair and the Vampire because they look cool and make cool noises

Changed my mind, switch the JU-52 for a JU-87 Stuka.

[cgzro]

They were lamenting the lack of citations and decorations for instructors

One of the goals of Vintage Wings/Yellow Wings program is actually to highlight that aspect and we have picked a number of such individuals to commemorate. If you see the Vintage Wings / Yellow Wings planes have a look at the side. Each aircraft has a dedication and a story behind it researched by our historians. Its a small bit of recognition but none the less a concrete way to say thank you.

Oh while we are placing a/c orders here please add a Hawker Tempest V to the list

[Shiny Side Up]

As amazing as the BCATP was, it was the puppy mill of puppy mills. Pilots who just got their wings were immediately sent to instructor courses and then on to teaching students in Tiger Moths, Cornells, Harvards, and Ansons, and the attrition rates were huge.

Indeed. If there were such loss rates today in flight training in Canada there would be a huge public outcry. For some reason the stories I always found particularly depressing were the guys who came back after surviving a combat tour to an instructor position who then were killed training some new guy.

Hmmm, if I was going to choose 5 planes to have a training camp with, I'd go with a Tiger Moth for initial stuff and biplane fun. A Chipmunk for a little bit of aerobatic fun - with the Canadian bubble canopy of course. No school could be complete without a Harvard, though to be authentic we'd have to find one made by CC&F. In that theme we'd have to complete the group with a CC&F made Hurricane, and a native born CF-100 as our jet trainer.

[Beefitarian]

CC&F harvards are not to tough to find.

http://www.controller.com/list/list.asp ... Y&setype=1

Hurricanes, a bit.

[Colonel Sanders]

My five might surprise you:

1) Tiger Moth
2) Chipmunk
3) Harvard
4) Harvard (you can do formation with two)
5) TF-51 Mustang (true dual control)

Operated off hard grass. The above are aircraft that you
could actually learn to fly - get dual on - as opposed for
just going for a ride. The Mustang would be a natural
progression from the Harvard - both are North American
designs.

If you just want to go for a ride:

1) MiG-21US
2) F-104D w/J79-GE-19
3) F-4F
4) SU-27UBK
5) MiG-29UB-12

Or something like that. Go supersonic. Go Mach 2.
Pull G until you pass out and you bleed out your bum.
Operated off a 15,000 foot paved runway with a cable.

PS CanCar Harvards are not exactly rare. I fly an 1954
Mk IV which I am told is the lowest-time Harvard airframe
in the world. Not sure it's true, but it sounds good.

[Beefitarian]

I'd like to buy one of these. If I just won a small lottery.
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 256169.htm.

Eventually I couldn't afford to maintain the poor thing and it would rot tied down somewhere.

[Colonel Sanders]

There's a mod for them where you swap out the engine
and replace it with a 250 (?) hp Lyc 540 and a 3-blade
metal prop. Must cost a fortune, but what a towplane.

Called "superdog". Not making that up.

[Beefitarian]

Sounds perfect. Would one of those composite props be even better?

Three blade of course.

[Moose47]

"The BCATP program which trained a huge number of pilots in Canada for England used Tiger Moths, Fleet Finch, Cornells, some Stearman, Chipmunks and then Harvard."

First off, you forgot the North American Yale.

Secondy, "some Stearman" was actually 301 aircraft. They were on strength with the R.C.A.F. from March 1942 to April 1943.

Pilots graduated with their wings after completing Service Flying Training School either as a single-engine (primarily Harvards) or multi-engine pilot (Avro Anson, Cessna Crane or Airspeed Oxford). Then came more training at an Operational Training Unit in Canada or in the United Kingdom providing you were not selected to become an instructor. As well, there were Heavy Conversion Units for the bombers boys in the U.K.

Cheers...Chris

[fleet16b]

It is worth noting that the BCATP was much more effective at killing Allied pilots and destroying aircraft than the Axis powers were.

One of the more moronic statements I have seen on this Forum

Well, I am sorry that you think so and in reflection, perhaps I shouldn't have worded it that way. On further inspection, it was non-operational losses that exceeded combat losses, which included operational squadrons as well as the BCATP.

I got the information from the book 'Behind the Glory' which is about the setting up and running of the BCATP in Canada. They were lamenting the lack of citations and decorations for instructors even though the work they were doing was as dangerous if not more dangerous than doing fighter sweeps over the Western Front with almost total air superiority. Many instructors who never saw combat never got the same recognition as their students for their contribution to the war effort. That is what I meant by my statement.

As amazing as the BCATP was, it was the puppy mill of puppy mills. Pilots who just got their wings were immediately sent to instructor courses and then on to teaching students in Tiger Moths, Cornells, Harvards, and Ansons, and the attrition rates were huge.

Excuse me for being a bit defensive as my Dad was a BCATP Instructor from 1939 - 1944
The book Behind the Glory is not bad but Wings for Victory is a much better in depth look at the BCATP.
"The Plan " is also an excellent collection of first hand accounts from BCATP Personnel.
The losses for that era were considered quite acceptable as they were compared to A) losses during RFC training in Canada during WW1 and B) by the huge losses overseas at the time.
In fact the RFC Canada Training program was the basis for the BCATP.
The first BCATP personnel consisted of mostly ex WW1 instructors , civilian Instructors, mechanics RAFand RCAF personnel. Basically they took anyone with aviation experience in order to get things going.
I hate that "puppy mill " expression.
From the beginning the BCATP planned to create its own instructors in order to create aircrew in large numbers. It was so successful that by 1944 we started closing schools because of the excess number of aircrew produced.
All in all it was one of the most successful operations of the War and contributed very highly to victory.
As for the recognition thing. I was privileged to hang around many ex BCATP Instructors etc growing up. They were always very reluctant to receive any recognition or accolades due to not getting overseas.

I think that it is best summed up in the epilogue from " The Plan"

" There were several hundred killed in Canada in those years- the years of the Plan- and they're scattered from one end of the country to the other. I've been to places where you find central memorials which not only list the nanes but also commemorate the enterprise in which these men died. But there's not a place like that for the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan.
I got my wings, I got my gongs, I got my sort of belly full of war after I had done my training as many other fellows did. But these other lads got nothing except death. And it really doesn't matter whether you're pranging in a Tigermoth over Neepawa or in a Halifax over Berlin- you're just as dead . And those young fellows were all just as loyal , just as courageous, just as young and just as prepared to go and do those big and glorious deeds as those that got to go do them, but they never got the chance and they never got the rewards.
The guy that was killed later usually had a few weeks, or months or years of glory before hand - whether that made it worthwhile or not is another matter - but these kids got nothing.
They got no wings ; they got no recognition; they got no memorial, they got no gongs.
Nobody ever talks about them .........and I think they should.

[Beefitarian]

There's a mod for them where you swap out the engine
and replace it with a 250 (?) hp Lyc 540 and a 3-blade
metal prop. Must cost a fortune, but what a towplane.

Called "superdog". Not making that up.

Check this out. One Canadian variant has a 4 blade prop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L19-2.jpg

[DonutHole]

here are my five

5. p-51 < just because
4. l-39 < love the look of this jet
3. pitts s1
2. vans rv8
1. sea fury

Without the civvie stuff the list would be the same but 3 and two would go

3. t-28
2. l-19

[Shiny Side Up]

If you just want to go for a ride:

1) MiG-21US
2) F-104D w/J79-GE-19
3) F-4F
4) SU-27UBK
5) MiG-29UB-12

Well if we're going to go that far into fantasyland, might I suggest the following line up. First we'd need a pair of TF-9Js for some old school fun. We're going to cheat and get a pair of each type so we can do formation while we're at it. Moving up in time we'll add a pair of Heinemann Hotrod TA-4Js, and for the same time frame the rare birds, a pair of the few TF-8As. We should also have some international flair, so a pair of Gannet T.2s would be in order to make a lot of noise with, and for some real odd-ball flying a pair of Yak-38Us. I know, maybe not as good as a Harrier, but wierder and more exotic.

Did I mention we're going to get a carrier to operate this flying circus off of? Sail the world and stay where there's white sand beaches and drinks with umbrellas in them.

PS CanCar Harvards are not exactly rare.

Oh I know that, I was just sticking with a theme.

[Beefitarian]

Did I mention we're going to get a carrier to operate this flying circus off of? Sail the world and stay where there's white sand beaches and drinks with umbrellas in them.

Ok, what sort of motorcycles are we bringing?

[Beaver Driver]

Stearman
Harvard
Spitfire
Corsair
F7F Tigercat

If you want to fly jets, just go here....http://www.jetwarbird.com/

[Colonel Sanders]

No Sea Fury? Zounds.

Fascinating history to that aircraft. Didn't see much action -
was rather late to the party, and was quickly obsoleted
after WWII by the jets, but still had a remarkable post-WWII
combat record.

Following their retirement, approximately 46 Sea Furies were stored in a wooden Second World War hangar in Canada. Some had less than four hours total time - little more than factory test flights. As they were about to be sold to Lynn Garrison, and his associates, by Crown Assets Disposal Corporation, a fire destroyed the hangar and its contents.

Sigh.

[LousyFisherman]

From talking to an old guy when I was a kid I'll take a Hurricane over a Spitfire so...

Hurricane
Mosquito
Sopwith Camel
German WW1 Triplane
Any other WW1 flying object, not including observation balloons

and yes I know I know very little about WW1 planes but who wouldn't want the opportunity to play both sides of Snoopy and the Red Baron

LF

[Colonel Sanders]

I know very little about WW1 planes

You need to visit Old Rhinebeck, NY sometime.

PS My grandfather said WWI airplanes were junk. He
and his brother flew for the RFC. I'm not sure those
(replica) aircraft would make very good modern-day
trainers / joyride airplanes, esp in view of the intense
left-wing revisionism here with respect to WWII, when
things had gotten much, much better.

The training casualties in WWI were simply horrible. The
aircraft were junk, and nobody really know very much
about aviation back then. Everybody was learning.

http://suite101.com/article/rfc-fighter ... ne-a155561

Five months before the end of the First World War, a question was tabled in the British House of Commons, to be answered by the Secretary of State. He was asked to explain the extraordinarily high death rate of fighter pilots in training before being sent to their Royal Flying Corps squadrons in France. The figures showed that 8,000 out of a total of 14,166 pilot deaths had occurred before those pilots ever flew against the enemy. In fact the British training system was killing more pilots than the Germans.

The Secretary of State's answer was indicative of the casual and lethal methods the RFC employed up to 1917. He attempted to blame the high number of training deaths on the pilots themselves and referred to their youthful lack of discipline as the primary cause. By comparison, the German figures for fighter pilot deaths in the First War while training was about one quarter of the British. It wasn't lack of discipline, but a lack of effective training plans, good instructors and reliable airplanes which were killing off new pilots.

[misterl19]

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let me know if you have any other questions

thanks
steve noyes
owner stc sa1201sw
9788360361

www.birddogsteve.blogspot.com MisterL19@aol.com

[Meatservo]

Everytime I see someone type the words "Diemert Defender" I cheer up a little.