The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
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- YYZSaabGuy
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The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
I can't be the only one who finds this just unbelievable: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201 ... lanes.html. From the story: "The program to buy new search planes was launched formally in 2002...[and]...was funded to the tune of about $1.3 billion in 2004. The first of about 15 planes was to be delivered by 2006. But more than six years later, the government has been unable to even get a bid out to tender. Sources tell CBC News that MacKay's first briefing as defence minister was about the fixed-wing search-and-rescue program. In fact, MacKay is now the sixth defence minister to have overseen the department with the fixed-wing program underway."
So...ten years and six defence ministers later, and we don't even have a tender process in place. What does this say about:
1. The credibility of the incumbent Minister of Defence and his ability to steer big-ticket programs through his own government and the civil service?
2. DND's procurement practices and its abilitiy to work with other departments, suppliers and the market in general?
3. How much longer we're going to require the RCAF to work with obsolete equipment?
4. How much longer we're going to have to continue to rely on a SAR capability that isn't up to the task?
And, most importantly, how do we fix it?
So...ten years and six defence ministers later, and we don't even have a tender process in place. What does this say about:
1. The credibility of the incumbent Minister of Defence and his ability to steer big-ticket programs through his own government and the civil service?
2. DND's procurement practices and its abilitiy to work with other departments, suppliers and the market in general?
3. How much longer we're going to require the RCAF to work with obsolete equipment?
4. How much longer we're going to have to continue to rely on a SAR capability that isn't up to the task?
And, most importantly, how do we fix it?
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Name me the Colonel or General who is the Head of the SAR in Canada ?
There isn't one.
SAR is a sidekick appended to a multitude of Squadrons throughout Canada, squadrons whose primary job is something else.
The SARTECHs and SAR pilots all belong to different squadrons and the SAR pilots are often the black sheep of their group who are doing something different from all the others in their base, a non-military task.
Put a Colonel in charge, put all "his aircraft" (Edit: and all SAR assets) under his command and things will move.
SAR is now worse than an orphan for at least orphans had parents at one time in their life. SAR is like a test tube baby that no one claims as their own.
Second: DND has to stop the practice of trying to fix bids by custom-writing specifications in order to favor the aircraft they favor. They did it for the C-130-J, the C-17 and CH-47F, and got away with it, because in those three cases they used our troops which were in harm's way as a backdrop to give these purchases a sense of urgency: these were urgently needed for the war in Afghanistan to save lives, was what was implied, so everyone looked the other way.
In the case of the C-17, the specifications, as written in the SOR that led to the purchase of the aircraft, were "cut-and-paste" straight out of the Boeing C-17 manual. Nothing has ever been more flagrant.
They tried to do it again with the F35 and the FWSAR and got caught. The context was not the same. No troops were in harm's way that required people to look the other way.
DND must write Specs that allow a fair competition and trust that those down the pipeline will pick the best machine. Who is to sat that the C-27J will not win an open bid ? Who is to say the F-35 will not also win in a fair contest? Chances are the best machine will turn out to be those that DND wanted in the first place. But bid-rigging is not the way to go. They must stop taking everyone for imbeciles and allow the system to work the way it was meant to be: legally.
There isn't one.
SAR is a sidekick appended to a multitude of Squadrons throughout Canada, squadrons whose primary job is something else.
The SARTECHs and SAR pilots all belong to different squadrons and the SAR pilots are often the black sheep of their group who are doing something different from all the others in their base, a non-military task.
Put a Colonel in charge, put all "his aircraft" (Edit: and all SAR assets) under his command and things will move.
SAR is now worse than an orphan for at least orphans had parents at one time in their life. SAR is like a test tube baby that no one claims as their own.
Second: DND has to stop the practice of trying to fix bids by custom-writing specifications in order to favor the aircraft they favor. They did it for the C-130-J, the C-17 and CH-47F, and got away with it, because in those three cases they used our troops which were in harm's way as a backdrop to give these purchases a sense of urgency: these were urgently needed for the war in Afghanistan to save lives, was what was implied, so everyone looked the other way.
In the case of the C-17, the specifications, as written in the SOR that led to the purchase of the aircraft, were "cut-and-paste" straight out of the Boeing C-17 manual. Nothing has ever been more flagrant.
They tried to do it again with the F35 and the FWSAR and got caught. The context was not the same. No troops were in harm's way that required people to look the other way.
DND must write Specs that allow a fair competition and trust that those down the pipeline will pick the best machine. Who is to sat that the C-27J will not win an open bid ? Who is to say the F-35 will not also win in a fair contest? Chances are the best machine will turn out to be those that DND wanted in the first place. But bid-rigging is not the way to go. They must stop taking everyone for imbeciles and allow the system to work the way it was meant to be: legally.
Last edited by yultoto on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
G'day
"SAR pilots are often the black sheep of their group who are doing something different from all the others in their base, a non-military task"
You are joking right???
Cheers...Chris
Operations Officer
North Bay Air Search and Rescue
"SAR pilots are often the black sheep of their group who are doing something different from all the others in their base, a non-military task"
You are joking right???
Cheers...Chris
Operations Officer
North Bay Air Search and Rescue
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Yultoto spot on comments!
SAR is the ugly step child of the RCAF, being at a MAG base your comments ring loud and clear.
SAR is the ugly step child of the RCAF, being at a MAG base your comments ring loud and clear.
Last edited by fireman1867 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Maybe a solution is to hand the majority of search and rescue to the Canadian Coast Guard like is done south of the border.
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
The main issue with the Coast Guard is that they would fall under TC regulations for ops unless legislation were changed, overtime would also be problematic.
Our wx limits are extremely low for FW operations.
Our wx limits are extremely low for FW operations.
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
1.3 billion is a lot of moola. And SAR is important. But sometimes the airplanes they use seem a bit wasteful. I think a fleet of twin otters on wheels, and a few on amphibs would be the way to go. Set up a central office (An atco trailer would work) with a number equivalent to 911, and have them manned 24 hours. Have a couple of twin otters based in each province and territory.
In the event the SAR activities get busy in one area, there would be ample cheap airplanes to come in from other areas to assist in the operation.
10 provinces and 3 territories = 26 twin otters. $5,000,000 each = $130,000,000. Plus the crew quarters and offices for each location. Very likely under $300,000,000 total. Problem solved. Probably a little simple but why make things difficult?
In the event the SAR activities get busy in one area, there would be ample cheap airplanes to come in from other areas to assist in the operation.
10 provinces and 3 territories = 26 twin otters. $5,000,000 each = $130,000,000. Plus the crew quarters and offices for each location. Very likely under $300,000,000 total. Problem solved. Probably a little simple but why make things difficult?

Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Glad to know I am one of the black sheep - oh wait maybe I'm not. SAR crews are not type-cast in one role - we move around from platform to platform every 3-4 years. Fly a Buffalo then fly a C-17 - the sky is literally the limit.
I've had SAR Wing Commanders and MAG ones - the coast bases are not type specific either. Greenwood may have more grey planes than yellow - but it is still very much just like any other RCAF base (minus the suck).
Commander 1 CAD would be the General in charge of SAR - just as he is currently the commander of fighters, Air mobility, tactical airlift etc. The only time when SAR goes around him is when we launch on a major search - then we have a chain of command that goes straight to the CDS.
I share MND's frustration - I personally wish that the CF could procure what it wants without any civilian oversight - how do we all think that would make the tax payer feel?
Twin Otters are great platforms for searching small swathes of landscape - absolutely useless for anything else. The Buff is bordering on the same restrictions. FWSAR must be able to sprint fast and high - how is that for a simple statement of requirements?
I truly hope an "almost made in Canada" solution is obtained - whether it be Discovery Air/AIRBUS or ALENIA/???? - let's get some metal bending.
I've had SAR Wing Commanders and MAG ones - the coast bases are not type specific either. Greenwood may have more grey planes than yellow - but it is still very much just like any other RCAF base (minus the suck).
Commander 1 CAD would be the General in charge of SAR - just as he is currently the commander of fighters, Air mobility, tactical airlift etc. The only time when SAR goes around him is when we launch on a major search - then we have a chain of command that goes straight to the CDS.
I share MND's frustration - I personally wish that the CF could procure what it wants without any civilian oversight - how do we all think that would make the tax payer feel?
Twin Otters are great platforms for searching small swathes of landscape - absolutely useless for anything else. The Buff is bordering on the same restrictions. FWSAR must be able to sprint fast and high - how is that for a simple statement of requirements?
I truly hope an "almost made in Canada" solution is obtained - whether it be Discovery Air/AIRBUS or ALENIA/???? - let's get some metal bending.
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
They "got away with it" because transports and helicopters aren't "sexy" enough in the public and media eyes. No one cares about slow, limbering aircraft that don't kill people. All three were much needed and great - sole sourced - purchases that the RCAF required.yultoto wrote:Second: DND has to stop the practice of trying to fix bids by custom-writing specifications in order to favor the aircraft they favor. They did it for the C-130-J, the C-17 and CH-47F, and got away with it,
- SheriffPatGarrett
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Spot on...if you are in heaven...But bid-rigging is not the way to go. They must stop taking everyone for imbeciles and allow the system to work the way it was meant to be: legally.
In real life on planet earth, since the dawn of age, military procurement have always been synonym with political expediency.
Remember Diefenbaker having a caterpillar drive over the Avro Arrow after winning elections...for a good laff,
read about military aviation in Italy in WW II, going from world's number one to a sad joke in only a few years...think
of King Philip of Macedonia sinking the Athenian fleet by simply buying Athenian senators and having them cut the navy's budget...
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Sometimes I wish we had more dreams in our eyes. Canada, as the second largest country on the planet, and one with a very busy aviation sector, is prime land to innovate in the sector of SAR. We have all the talent, resources, and will to develop an in-house expertise, and solution. The Brits have out-sourced SAR, the US has given it to the Coast Guard, but we, Canadians, should use this opportunity to lead the way, once again, and be the best.
We can develop new generation ELT's, planes, and organizations, that can easily improve accuracy and effectiveness. Technology is here now.
One of the difficulties I saw doing searches, was the vast area we had to scan, because the signal did not exist, or the flight plan was not precise.
Because of its inherent vastness, Canada should lead the way into innovation in that sector, and not wait for ICAO, or other organizations to dictate to us what is mandated.
Our SAR people are doing a great job, at all levels, considering the resources available. It is true that for the military, SAR duties are secondary. I was involved in searches with small private planes only, because the Trenton Hercs were simply not available.
We can develop new generation ELT's, planes, and organizations, that can easily improve accuracy and effectiveness. Technology is here now.
One of the difficulties I saw doing searches, was the vast area we had to scan, because the signal did not exist, or the flight plan was not precise.
Because of its inherent vastness, Canada should lead the way into innovation in that sector, and not wait for ICAO, or other organizations to dictate to us what is mandated.
Our SAR people are doing a great job, at all levels, considering the resources available. It is true that for the military, SAR duties are secondary. I was involved in searches with small private planes only, because the Trenton Hercs were simply not available.
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Excellent post Expat - I agree 100%.
While this is true for every aircraft in the RCAF fleet - those aircraft assigned to SAR squadrons (Cormorant, Grif, Herc and Buffalo) are primary SAR assets - their job is to conduct RW/FWSAR within NSS response timeframes (30 mins / 2 hours). The Buff does not actively conduct transport missions - this is usually a third line of tasking, the first two being SAR and SAR Backup.Expat wrote: It is true that for the military, SAR duties are secondary.
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
"SAR is the ugly step child of the RCAF, being at a MAG base your comments ring loud and clear everything from funding to support are controlled by a commander who has little or no interesting our ask and provides lip service to it."
Are you a 'Tusker' at ZX?
Cheers...Chris
Are you a 'Tusker' at ZX?
Cheers...Chris
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
If the aircraft is only tasked with SAR and the aft ramp is no longer mandatory what do you airforce folks think of using the Dash 8-400? I'm sure the aft ramp is easier to jump from however I read that they can install wind shields for the side exits and floor hatches to airdrop larger items. Not ideal I'm sure but when it comes to high and fast it leaves the c-295 100 knots behind it and made in Canada.
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Canada needs SAR and Coast Guard assets much more than we need stealthy (allegedly) go fast, planes. We need to show the flag at the extremes of the country more than spending billions on assets which have little more use than playing second or third fiddle in a war started by somebody else.
Buy a bunch of those fixed up P-3's the US is tired of, for patrol, get the damned S-92's already, buy a pack of Twin Otters and a proper Buffalo replacement, get enough assets so we can actually patrol the remoter parts of the coasts...including permanent stations in the Arctic.
Put the f-35 on the 'what were we thinking?' pile and move on to something reasonably priced...but that's another argument.
Buy a bunch of those fixed up P-3's the US is tired of, for patrol, get the damned S-92's already, buy a pack of Twin Otters and a proper Buffalo replacement, get enough assets so we can actually patrol the remoter parts of the coasts...including permanent stations in the Arctic.
Put the f-35 on the 'what were we thinking?' pile and move on to something reasonably priced...but that's another argument.
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Transfer the responsibility of SAR to the private sector and have a competetive bidding process. One could even have a separate fixed wing operator and a rotory operator. We would have had a solution to these problems (no arctic coverage, limited bases etc.) 8 years ago and would already on a refined second contract.YYZSaabGuy wrote: And, most importantly, how do we fix it?
Even if there was some kind of joint program where the military keeps SAR responsibilities however contracts out to the more isolated regions would be better than what we have now.
The waste of both time and resources of government is not only mind boggling but puts peoples lives at risk by not having said resources available in a timely manner. If a private sector tender was offered the government could state which capabilities it required and allow the private sector to spend its money to provide possibilites and pick the option(s) which are most suitable.
But unlike many other countries Canada seems to have tunnel vision with regards to DND doing SAR. I am not saying they are doing it wrong but the processes involved are too weighed down by BS.
Take Care
DW
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
teacher wrote:If the aircraft is only tasked with SAR and the aft ramp is no longer mandatory what do you airforce folks think of using the Dash 8-400? I'm sure the aft ramp is easier to jump from however I read that they can install wind shields for the side exits and floor hatches to airdrop larger items. Not ideal I'm sure but when it comes to high and fast it leaves the c-295 100 knots behind it and made in Canada.
Something like this: http://www.provincialaerospace.com/Surv ... dAircraft/
Click on the Air Operable Door link
Field Aviation also has a mod for Dash's to install an Air Operable Door.
It can be done but the will to change a way of thinking has to be there.
Cheers
DW
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
BINGO!! Not only would that almost immediately solve the problem, but you would have crews onboard with actual flight experience and knowledge of the surrounding areas and terrain. Watching these Buffalo and Otter guys operate makes me shake my head to say the least. You wouldn't put a low timer in the left seat of either one of these aircraft in the civil world, but in the military it's OK. What a joke.Double Wasp wrote:Transfer the responsibility of SAR to the private sector and have a competetive bidding process

Flame away.
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Its should be fixed wing search...... the rescue part can be omitted.
"If you are in trouble anywhere in the world, an airplane can fly over and drop flowers, but a helicopter can land and save your life."
— Igor Sikorsky, 1947
"If you are in trouble anywhere in the world, an airplane can fly over and drop flowers, but a helicopter can land and save your life."
— Igor Sikorsky, 1947
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Finally a sensible post. It isn't the DND's job to save your ass.Double Wasp wrote:Transfer the responsibility of SAR to the private sector and have a competetive bidding process. One could even have a separate fixed wing operator and a rotory operator. We would have had a solution to these problems (no arctic coverage, limited bases etc.) 8 years ago and would already on a refined second contract.YYZSaabGuy wrote: And, most importantly, how do we fix it?
Even if there was some kind of joint program where the military keeps SAR responsibilities however contracts out to the more isolated regions would be better than what we have now.
The waste of both time and resources of government is not only mind boggling but puts peoples lives at risk by not having said resources available in a timely manner. If a private sector tender was offered the government could state which capabilities it required and allow the private sector to spend its money to provide possibilites and pick the option(s) which are most suitable.
But unlike many other countries Canada seems to have tunnel vision with regards to DND doing SAR. I am not saying they are doing it wrong but the processes involved are too weighed down by BS.
Take Care
DW
- YYZSaabGuy
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Better clue in the RCAF - it looks like they missed your memo: "The Air Force shares responsibility for search and rescue in Canada by drawing support from the Canadian Coast Guard and from a vast network of civil and government organizations, volunteers and other agencies." See http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/page-eng.asp?id=17frosti wrote:Finally a sensible post. It isn't the DND's job to save your ass.
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
I was going to wait for Moose 47 and SAR_ YQQ to respond as they are currently in the RCAF and I`ve retired BUT this comment is an insult to the men and women of the RCAF who put their lives on the line to save someones ass,yours included J a C, because they/you screw up and fly beyond your/their or their aircrafts` capabilities!Just another canuck wrote:
Watching these Buffalo and Otter guys operate makes me shake my head to say the least. You wouldn't put a low timer in the left seat of either one of these aircraft in the civil world, but in the military it's OK. What a joke.![]()
Flame away.
J a C..have you ever flown SAR? Have you flown any type of military plane in the SAR role? How do you know what the experience level is in the cockpit of the Buff or Otter or C-130 or chopper, etc. that has been dispatched to find and save your butt because you screwed up! Have you ever been in that SAR cockpit? Didn`t think so.....
I flew 4 1/2 yrs on C-130`s in the SAR role. 99% of my launches were because people like you went beyond theirs` or their aircrafts` capabilities in the operation of their duties. The other 1%........mechanical falure.
Have a safe flight, but should you not,the dedicated men and women of the RCAF`s SAR community will launch , no questions asked, to save your butt.
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Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
"
BINGO!! Not only would that almost immediately solve the problem, but you would have crews onboard with actual flight experience and knowledge of the surrounding areas and terrain. Watching these Buffalo and Otter guys operate makes me shake my head to say the least. You wouldn't put a low timer in the left seat of either one of these aircraft in the civil world, but in the military it's OK. What a joke.
Flame away."
Oh dear oh dear, where do I begin? Naw, I'm just going to sit back and let you keep on making a fool of yourself as it is quite apparent you know sweet dick all about SAR or the military.
Cheers...Chris
BINGO!! Not only would that almost immediately solve the problem, but you would have crews onboard with actual flight experience and knowledge of the surrounding areas and terrain. Watching these Buffalo and Otter guys operate makes me shake my head to say the least. You wouldn't put a low timer in the left seat of either one of these aircraft in the civil world, but in the military it's OK. What a joke.
Flame away."
Oh dear oh dear, where do I begin? Naw, I'm just going to sit back and let you keep on making a fool of yourself as it is quite apparent you know sweet dick all about SAR or the military.
Cheers...Chris
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Just because it is policy doesn't mean I have to agree with it.YYZSaabGuy wrote:Better clue in the RCAF - it looks like they missed your memo: "The Air Force shares responsibility for search and rescue in Canada by drawing support from the Canadian Coast Guard and from a vast network of civil and government organizations, volunteers and other agencies." See http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/page-eng.asp?id=17frosti wrote:Finally a sensible post. It isn't the DND's job to save your ass.
Re: The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Saga Continues....
Wowfrosti wrote:Finally a sensible post. It isn't the DND's job to save your ass.Double Wasp wrote:Transfer the responsibility of SAR to the private sector and have a competetive bidding process. One could even have a separate fixed wing operator and a rotory operator. We would have had a solution to these problems (no arctic coverage, limited bases etc.) 8 years ago and would already on a refined second contract.YYZSaabGuy wrote: And, most importantly, how do we fix it?
Even if there was some kind of joint program where the military keeps SAR responsibilities however contracts out to the more isolated regions would be better than what we have now.
The waste of both time and resources of government is not only mind boggling but puts peoples lives at risk by not having said resources available in a timely manner. If a private sector tender was offered the government could state which capabilities it required and allow the private sector to spend its money to provide possibilites and pick the option(s) which are most suitable.
But unlike many other countries Canada seems to have tunnel vision with regards to DND doing SAR. I am not saying they are doing it wrong but the processes involved are too weighed down by BS.
Take Care
DW
All I can say is wow.
There is so much wrong here it is frightening.
The military is the right service to get the job done, just give them the tools and get the politics out of the way.