Flight Training Frequency

[CpnCrunch]

For the time being you'll get a hit and run comment from me regarding the prettiest of clouds, the cb.

I don't spend enough time around them, the planes I fly could likely shed it's wings if I make a mistake getting to close, so I'll keep my interactions with them simple and just maintain a couple of miles of separation.

A few miles is probably a little close, but I guess it depends on how big the cloud is. Large Cbs they recommend you stay 20 miles away from.

Anyway, VFR flying it's very easy (at least in Alberta where there don't tend to be many clouds except cumulus in summer) - just stay away from anything scary looking. The scarier it looks, the further away you stay from it!

[Bede]

SSU,

It sounds a bit like you are part of the problem. Contracts ideally work only when you have two fully informed and knowledgeable parties. In many cases this is not the case and therefore governments legislated protections for one party (consumers) to protect them from their own ignorance). As much as I'm a capitalist, I have come to agree with this legislation.

The fact is that many flight schools sells their students on a vision of this industry that is fiction ("you'll be flying for Air Canada in 3 years", "Your PPL will take 45 hours") and that is wrong.

[YYZSaabGuy]

SSU,

It sounds a bit like you are part of the problem. Contracts ideally work only when you have two fully informed and knowledgeable parties. In many cases this is not the case and therefore governments legislated protections for one party (consumers) to protect them from their own ignorance). As much as I'm a capitalist, I have come to agree with this legislation.

The fact is that many flight schools sells their students on a vision of this industry that is fiction ("you'll be flying for Air Canada in 3 years", "Your PPL will take 45 hours") and that is wrong.

Gotta disagree with you on that one, Bede - I think SSU nailed it. There is more information generally available now, and more ways to access it, than ever before. There is no excuse for being less than fully informed and knowledgeable when it comes to making a significant investment of funds in a license.

The last thing we need, IMHO, is more government legislation to "protect" us from our own stupidity, because it's a never-ending ride.

[LousyFisherman]

Gotta disagree with you on that one, Bede - I think SSU nailed it. There is more information generally available now, and more ways to access it, than ever before. There is no excuse for being less than fully informed and knowledgeable when it comes to making a significant investment of funds in a license.
Snip.....

I really wish you would tell people where this reliable information that a non-pilot can base their decision on is.
At age 48 I made my decision based on the information given to me by the flight schools. In 50% of the cases the information was a deliberate lie. ("Just about everyone passes in 65 hours", in my time there no-one received their PPL in less than 85 hours) As a pilot it is very obvious what the correct decision should have been. As a non-pilot I did not know enough to make a wise decision. And I got lucky, I received relatively good training, even if they did milk me for an extra 15-20 hours before I caught on.

What's funny is even now with my knowledge, the place to do it is SSU's school but that is an hour drive each way for me so I am still unsure of what the best choice would have been?

YMMV
LF

[Colonel Sanders]

the information given to me by the flight schools ...

In 50% of the cases the information was a deliberate lie.

they did milk me for an extra 15-20 hours

The irony is that the FTU regulatory infrastructure is
there "for the public", we are told, with considerable
harrumphing

An FTU OC is all too often a licence to simply f__k
the public, just like the milk marketing board's
"quotas", etc. Nothing to do with safety, or even
any value to the taxpayer. Merely another special
interest group getting their way.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Gotta disagree with you on that one, Bede - I think SSU nailed it. There is more information generally available now, and more ways to access it, than ever before. There is no excuse for being less than fully informed and knowledgeable when it comes to making a significant investment of funds in a license.

I really wish you would tell people where this reliable information that a non-pilot can base their decision on is. YMMV LF

LF, I sympathize with your experience. However: training duration has been exhaustively discussed on AvCanada and it's not that hard to find it.
I believe it's also been addressed on PPrune. Both are in the public domain and internet-accessible to anyone with an interest.
Prospective students are invariably encouraged to visit multiple FTUs to discuss program content and duration as well as assess for "fit" and personality.
While there, it's not that hard to chat up other students/pilots and pump them for information. I suppose you could also check out the Better Business Bureau
for an FTU's complaint history, for what that's worth.

I don't claim to have done any of that when working through my own license, by the way: I was far more interested in completing the program than
I was in the cost, and yes, that makes me a lousy consumer. But, being a hardened cynic by nature, I also took the duration and cost data provided by FTU with a
huge grain of salt. For those who care about cost, and are willing to spend the time doing some digging, it's really not that hard to suss out the reality vs. what
certain FTUs might claim. And no, I don't think that excuses the FTUs; I just don't think it's a big enough issue that it requires consumer protection legislation.

Caveat emptor and all that.

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't think that excuses the FTUs; I just don't think it's a big enough issue that it requires consumer protection legislation

Hold on a second - the irony is dripping here.

The FTU's ARE the consumer protection, by legislation!

[YYZSaabGuy]

I don't think that excuses the FTUs; I just don't think it's a big enough issue that it requires consumer protection legislation

The FTU's ARE the consumer protection, by legislation!

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. CARS 425 addresses flight training program requirements, instructor qualifications, aircraft requirements, and PTRs.
Where is consumer protection legislated to FTUs?

[Colonel Sanders]

CAR 406/426 details the requirement for an
FTU OC which "protects" the public, esp wrt
ab initio training - the "unwashed masses".

Note that in the USA, the day a CPL gets his
instructor rating, he can give dual instruction
on HIS OWN aircraft, something that is NOT
permitted in Canada, thanks to the lobbying
efforts of ATAC.

However, TC recognizes the value of this
training via the IPL, which demonstrates that
the FTU OC mechanism is NOT about safety
for the public, as we are told, but is merely
an economic barrier to entry which is clearly
abused by the OC holders. Like any other
special interest group, who's objective is to
screw the consumer for their own profit.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

I think LousyF and YYZ have equally valid reactions to how PPL requirements are presented to the average PPL hopeful. Is there information on the internet to be had regarding training time ? Probably, although you would likely have to dig for it. And even then, what have you got ? Are you likely to find info specific to your area ? A specific FTU ? Probably not.

And even if you did find a pantload of "honest" information out there...should you believe it ? Maybe THIS guy or THAT guy took 83 hours, but I certainly won't ( you'd tell yourself ).

My experience was more like that of YYZ, in that I had a wallet full of money and an airport 5 minutes away from my house where I have watched hundreds of planes fly over me, taunting me, beguiling me, during the 10 years I've lived here. THAT is where I was going to learn to fly and it didn't matter what line they fed me....45 hours or 90 hours....I was simply going to do whatever it took.

Now here's the rub, and the Colonel et al will likely enjoy this point very much ~ perhaps the biggest problem is that too many FTUs are simply not equipped/capable of turning out PPL graduates in only 45 hours ! During my PPL, my instructor was signing off on a young guy who I believe was only at around 45 or 50 hours, BUT, his old man owned a plane and this young guy had likely been flying it for several years. So if the only 45-hour wunderkind are those who are lucky enough to have flown the family Cessna ( or whatever ) since they were tall enough to reach the rudder pedals, then what friggin' hope was there for the rest of us ?

[Colonel Sanders]

too many FTUs are simply not equipped/capable of turning out PPL graduates in only 45 hours !

Good point. I would strongly agree that efficiency
is simply not a concern of any FTU, or TC, or flight
instructor that I am aware of.

This upsets me greatly.

Recently I checked a young man out on the Pitts
in the precise 5.0 minimum hours required by his
insurance. I take great pride in that.

Back in the mid 90's, when the rec permit first
came out, I got a guy through his rec permit in
25.3 hours, and he had no previous aviation
background. Note that there really isn't that
much difference between the rec permit and
the PPL - just steep turns, hood and nav
departure, which I could easily teach to PPL
flight test standards in another 5 hours or so.

You either take pride in your craft, or you don't.

I'm afraid that all too often these days, instructors
are merely hamburger in the cockpit, marking time
until they can fly a clapped-out Navajo in BootPhoque,
Manitoba, which is their dream job

You give me a young person with aptitude and
motivation, and I will train them to flight test guide
standard (and beyond) in the minimum flight time.

You give me a young person with aptitude and
motivation, and some time, and I will train them
to be amongst the finest pilots in Canada.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRZF36QOEIs

You either take pride in your craft, or you don't.

And no one does.

[RyanHealy29]

I'm afraid that all too often these days, instructors
are merely hamburger in the cockpit, marking time
until they can fly a clapped-out Navajo in BootPhoque,
Manitoba, which is their dream job

You give me a young person with aptitude and
motivation, and I will train them to flight test guide
standard (and beyond) in the minimum flight time.

You give me a young person with aptitude and
motivation, and some time, and I will train them
to be amongst the finest pilots in Canada.
.

Alright THIS is what I want in a flight instructor! (The positive part not the hamburger part). I have a meeting set up with the CFI at the flight centre I'm taking my ground school at right now (Waterloo Wellignton) to try and get some advice/recommendations on choosing an instructor for my in-plane stuff. So the million dollar question (for me at least) is how do I go about ensuring I get hooked up with the best instructor possible and not with one of these cockpit hamburgers the Colonel speaks of?

[white_knuckle_flyer]

I have a meeting set up with the CFI at the flight centre I'm taking my ground school at right now (Waterloo Wellignton) to try and get some advice/recommendations on choosing an instructor for my in-plane stuff. So the million dollar question (for me at least) is how do I go about ensuring I get hooked up with the best instructor possible and not with one of these cockpit hamburgers the Colonel speaks of?

Well, it's more like a $10,000 question, but I get your point !

As the Colonel's post illustrates, you may have to be satisfied with the instructor who is least hamburger-like. As soon as you go to an FTU, you have probably already moved in the "hamburger" direction, simply because it is in the best interest of the school and the instructors at the school to keep you learning for as long as possible ~ but not so long that it becomes obvious that you are not progressing sufficiently. If I knew someone like CS who lived reasonably close and who had no financial motivation to keep me past TC minimum, then I would have been all over it. I get the feeling there are simply not many of those people.

[Alberta_Canada]

My training frequency has been ridiculously low. I have just under 50 Hrs TT since 2008 (yikes!).....but that was because I had dozens of cancellations (spent 4 months booking my dual cross-country every Saturday and was cancelled every time for weather or mechanical snags), and then I moved cities to change careers and didn't have the spare funds until recently when I finished saving up a downpayment and bought a house, finished buying 25,000 dollars worth of tools and finished my auto apprenticeship. I've been through 5 instructors during that time all ranging from AWESOME to "oh please can I pay you another 170 dollars to show me how great you are at programming the GPS?". My solo cross country is now finished (Its funny because I kept myself from pulling the easy card and turning on that stupid GPS), and all that is left is 1 more hour of instrument and a couple more buildup hours of solo cross-country (and of course the written exam). I'm happy I put the training on hold during that time because I have now positioned my personal and professional life in a manner that leaves me with the financial stability to blast through the rest of my training and into a plane too (when the right one comes along.....which is going to be awesome!!!).

[Colonel Sanders]

how do I go about ensuring I get hooked up with the best instructor possible

Difficult question to answer. Need to define "best instructor"
which is really three qualities, IMHO:

1) has above-average flying skills and knowledge
2) is an effective teacher
3) has high standards for himself and his students

Just because someone is a great stick (eg #1) doesn't
mean they're necessarily a great teacher (#2) which is
a completely unrelated skill.

These days, as soon as someone approaches a mediocre
level of competence at flight instruction - from learning on
the job, as they progress from a class 4 to a 3, to a 2, to
a 1 - they move onto the right seat of a twin somewhere.

As a shot in the dark, ask a prospective flight instructor to
teach you this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US9je8STwjo



If they cannot do it themselves, well, they fail on #1 and
#3. If they can't explain in very simple terms how to do
it, well, they fail on #2.

99% of flight instructors just won't care. They're hamburger
in the right seat.

[YYZSaabGuy]

CAR 406/426 details the requirement for an
FTU OC which "protects" the public, esp wrt
ab initio training - the "unwashed masses".

Not quite. CAR 406/426 deals with FTU certification requirements, QA programs, personnel licensing requirements, PRMs, records
keeping, aircraft registration and equipment requirements, dispatch procedures, manuals and record-keeping, and the like. CAR 406/426
does not include anything in the way of legislated consumer protection to guard against FTUs padding hourly training requirements, understating
estimated time to completion of training, or doing any of the other things they're accused of doing on this thread. At least, not that I
can find.

I'm open to being corrected on this if you can point me to the relevant sections/subsections.

[Cat Driver]

Becoming a top notch teacher in aviation is the highest calling any pilot can strive for.

As the Colonel said there are three qualities one must have to excell as a teacher.....

....few ever attain that level of skill...

...those that do can make a very good living specalizing in teaching aviation.

......and as the Colomel said......the PPL can be taught in less hours than TC's 45 hour minimum.

[RyanHealy29]

So if such people do in fact exist, but they likely aren't at flight schools, how would one go about finding them to instruct for a PPL? I'm in the GTA (Mississauga), and right now I'm driving to Waterloo to do my groundschool there and was planning on doing my flight training there. The school seems to have an excellent reputation and they have DA-20s which is what I'd hoped to do my training on, but would I be better off searching for one of these mythical non-hamburger instructors in my local area and bypassing the flight school altogether?

[Colonel Sanders]

CAR 406/426 does not include anything in the way of legislated consumer protection

You are missing the forest for the trees. A better question to
ask is, "Why does CAR 406/426 (FTU OC) exist?"

The rhetoric that will be fed to you in response can be summarized
as, "To protect the public".

This is a very suspicious answer, but let's accept this rhetoric at
face value and respond to it:

"Sure, but an amazing number of FTU OC holders use the certificate
to screw the public!"

Which brings us to irony. To protect the public, it must be screwed.

Amazingly, . and I are seemingly the only people on Canada
that seem to recognize that there is problem.

Combine that with the fact that in the USA there is no FTU OC
requirement, and TC accepts FAA certificates at face value under
the IPL, well ... that's just the cherry on top.

CAR 406/426 FTU OC does not exist for the public safety. That
is empty rhetoric. It is an economic barrier to entry, which is a
result of successful lobbying, and is used by the certificate holder
to commit fraud in the majority of cases. Here are some more
egregious, repeated abuses of the FTU OC:

http://phoenixaviationacademy.com/

And everyone is happy with this arrangement, except for a couple
of grumpy old guys.

[LousyFisherman]

LF, I sympathize with your experience. However: training duration has been exhaustively discussed on AvCanada and it's not that hard to find it.
Snip ......
Caveat emptor and all that.

I have to disagree. Please review this thread http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =3&t=90480and tell me which school you would choose in the Calgary area. Feel free to review any other threads on the subject. There is no real information in any of them. I understand your belief but that is based on your knowledge as a pilot. When choosing a program an ab-initio trainee does not have, and cannot find the knowledge required to make a proper decision Emptor indeed. Just look at the number of "Which is the best school?". If the required information is readily available then why are so many people asking the same questions over and over?

Remember, I got lucky, I got relatively good training, I received 20 hours of crosswind landings (not the milking I refer to) in up to 30 knot winds, and I am fairly aggressive so the school in question got relatively little milk out of me.

YMMV
LF

[Cat Driver]

Amazingly, . and I are seemingly the only people on Canada
that seem to recognize that there is problem.

We recognize it because we have first hand experience in how TCCA works when you have the audacity to question why they do not follow the very laws they are supposed to uphold.

So for that we have been denied the right to earn a living in Canada even though we hold the certificates to do so.

I must be a very poor teacher because they refused to accept my training, they even steered them to teachers they would approve.

Mind you I am happy not to have to deal with them on any level anymore....

When I decided to go off shore to earn a living it was nice not having to deal with people lower than common street criminals.

[trey kule]

Ok. I have been around the block a few times, but I have to wonder about how a new wannabe aviator assesses a flight school.
I have heard flight school instructor so artfully dodge questions, that I think that some of them should be Senators.

Ask lots of questions? Like what, for instance? And what are the proper answers, and how do you verify the proper answers are correct?

Do you think you are ever going to have a potential instructor tell you that they are not very good at their job, and the school is terrible? That it is going to take 90 hours to get your ppl , and that you are going to pay for all sorts of pre solo, pre x country, and pre flight tests check rides, because you have a class 4 instructor who is having you pay extra to allow him to move up.
If you have been around there are questions, but they would make little sense I think, to the average new ppl student. And,quite frankly, if I posted them , it would just be a learning experience for the sleazy.

Anyway. Prepare, allow yourself lots of time to do a lesson, and fly abolutely as often as possible

[Colonel Sanders]

Any time you hire any tradesperson, you should ask them
how long they have been doing this, and can I talk to some
of your previous customers.

Specifically, for a flight instructor:

- how many years have you been flying
- how many years have you been instructing
- how many thousands of hours have you been flying
- how many thousands of hours have you been instructing
- how many people have you recommended for licence
- what type of licence were they (PPL? CPL? IFR? Multi?)
- how many hours did they have when they did their flight test
- can you talk to his former students

I have posted this laundry list of interview questions
for a prospective flight instructor here many, many
times before. All you need is a 5 minute conversation.

If he's recommended two PPL's and they both took
over 100 hrs, think twice.

If he's recommended twenty PPL's and most of them
did it in 50 hrs, he's your guy.

Yes, yes, yes, occasionally you will have a very slow
(often elderly) student that takes 100 hrs to PPL.
And that's not the instructor's fault. But if all his
students take 100 hrs to PPL, that's the instructor
who is either intentionally milking, or merely ineffective
and inefficient.

[trey kule]

I am going to play the devil' advocate here.

To ask questions, the answer must be telling.
I have met a few instructors that had only a couple hundred hours instructing, about 500 hrs tt, and maybe a half dozen or so students....and they were damn fine instructors.
On the other hand. , I have met some class 1s, who through constant self promotion and huge ego have new pilots believing they are the best of the best. And they are not.
So some of the questions do not really help. Total time, last 20 students. 1000s of hours as an instructor. Maybe, but that eliminates , in my mind some good instructors.

Even a class 4. My gripe is that where they require a supervising instructor to do an additional, and from the student's standpoint unnecessary check, the school should bear the cost as a training expense.
Some do, but the majority just provide a student with some hokum that they are logging the time, or give a 10% discount. Paying for a class 1 to check and verify the work of a class four and charging the student, is in my mind, akin to fraud.

So to put it bluntly, I dont think years as an instructor,tt, etc are that good an indicator , but they are definitely a good marketing tool.

As to questions such as how long does your average student take. Well, a school that has the air cadet contract and tells you 70 hours is very different than one that caters to almost exclusively recreational ppl training and tells you 70 hours.

The truth is, it is a bit of a pig in a poke.

Personally, I think finding someone you feel comfortable with and that has no breath or body odour issues is important. Any student should quickly see if the instructor is doing most of the flying, or they are wasting time just flying around. And a great instructor is not necessarily your best buddy. Their job is to teach you. Well and efficiently. I place more emphasis on how I see an instructor after a couple of lights. Were they on time? Was the instructor prepared, or did you sit and watch them review your PTR, or worse, shoot from the hip with what you were going to do. Were they in a big rush to get in the plane. And when the Wx or some other reason caused a flight cancellation , did they try and make their income by doing some ground work that was out of sync with that part of the training.
Dont be afraid to change instructors...or flight schools. The checkout to change takes little time if the new instructor is on the ball ,and well worth it in the overall scheme of things. Anyone who tells you they have to go through all the exercises in your PTR again....run.

It is a tough call, and there are a lot of wolves in the forest. But there are some good people as well.

[Colonel Sanders]

I dont think years as an instructor,tt, etc are that good an indicator

I am sure you can find a 300TT instructor with the hands of
. Yeager and the bedside manner of Florence Nightengale
if you look hard enough.

And you can probably find a 10,000TT instructor that hates his
job, hates his life, and hates his students.

But they are probably the exception to the rule. You might
disagree with the idea that a pilot gains knowledge and skill
as he gains experience - look at any of the want ads - and
you might disagree with the class 4/3/2/1 structure.

But if you want your heart operated on, would you rather
choose the Chief Surgeon, or a 4th year medical student
that just got his MD and is starting his residency?

Your choice. I can't guarantee that everyone will gain skill
and knowledge with experience, but most of us do. I know
I'm a far better pilot and instructor than I was decades ago.

We keep having this same discussion over and over again,
year after year after year. The 200TT pilots come on and
say that they know all they ever will about aviation and
instructing, and I guess we should believe them.