MF Procedures

[Lurch]

This has been bugging me for a while, and finally thought I'll ask.

I understand when flying a visual approach we can join and fly the circuit on the opposite side as long as we conform to existing traffic.

My understanding is when VFR you have to fly your circuit on the proper side, ie left hand circuits, if you join from the other side you are in contravention of the CARs.

Now what has been bugging me for years is when I cancel the IFR advise I'm going to cross midfield and join the left downwind, Radio comes up and asks if I want to do a right hand downwind.

Is this legal and if so what makes it legal? What really makes me wonder is Radio always says "Report final" I'm wondering if they are just turning a blind eye and as far as they are concerned we aren't joining right downwind but joining final.

Lurch

[Colonel Sanders]

Is this legal

No. Doing an right circuit on a left traffic runway is a
contravention of CAR 602.96, regardless if it is a ATF
or MF.

You never, ever do a right circuit. You never, ever
fly (or report) a right downwind or right base.

However there is nothing prohibiting you from joining
a straight-in final from the dead side. Get it? Your
FSS dude is trying to help you.

I can draw a picture if this isn't clear.

[Lurch]

That has been my exact thinking and why they only say report final.

[Heliian]

I believe there are some allowances for right hand circuits, with enough digging, maybe in a TC publication somewhere you could find it. It sounds like radio is telling you it's o.k. and as long as there is no conflicting traffic I don't see why it would be an issue.

You can't just go left hand on a right circuit or right on a left on your own, that'll lead to infractions or worse.

[ahramin]

Can't find it but I had a letter here from TC enforcement explaining that you must conform to or avoid the circuit and further stating that when joining final from the dead side you are avoiding the circuit.

Now if you cut someone off doing that you are obviously not avoiding the circuit and I would hope enforcement would have a chat with you.

I see way more traffic than most of the people I fly with and I don't see it all by a long shot. I highly recommend conforming to the circuit as much as possible.

[Colonel Sanders]

I had a letter here from TC enforcement

Are you collecting the whole set, too?

[CpnCrunch]

Can't find it but I had a letter here from TC enforcement explaining that you must conform to or avoid the circuit and further stating that when joining final from the dead side you are avoiding the circuit.

I can see that when you're on the dead-side you're not actually in the circuit so you can turn whatever way you like. However your base-to-final turn is potentially in the circuit, so according to the CAR that the Colonel posted above you could be in violation if your turn is in the opposite direction to the normal circuit.

[oldtimer]

Normal procedure in Kamloops is for day VFR circuits on Rwy 26,22 and 04 to be flown right hand which puts circuit traffic on the north side of the airport but for IFR traffic, the circle to land is flown on the south side of the airport, (right hand for RWY08). I think this is done to seperate the (usually) faster IFR traffic descending from the (usually) slower circuit traffic climbing out. IMHO. But now, if you are inbound IFR, request and are cleard a visual, which side to you fly the circuit on and does it make a difference if you cancel the IFR prior to entering the circuit?

[Colonel Sanders]

you could be in violation if your turn is in the opposite direction to the normal circuit

Not if you join straight-in final, and any turns
are performed outside the circuit.

[digits_]

you could be in violation if your turn is in the opposite direction to the normal circuit

Not if you join straight-in final, and any turns
are performed outside the circuit.

So basically you make your right hand downwind one turn radius longer than the left hand downwind, and you are legally ok ?

[Big Pistons Forever]

you could be in violation if your turn is in the opposite direction to the normal circuit

Not if you join straight-in final, and any turns
are performed outside the circuit.

The turn would have to be outside the ATF/MF

[Colonel Sanders]

I love the CARs

[Beefitarian]

When you turn right to join final how far away are you so it counts as joining straight-in?

[ahramin]

It needs to be far enough away that you are a avoiding the circuit. If someone else is on the downwind and turns base farther out than you, you'd have a tough time claiming you avoided the circuit. Easy answer: only join from the dead side when there are NO other aircraft in the circuit. If someone else is on the downwind, conform to the circuit and follow them.

[Colonel Sanders]

Are the dimensions of the circuit specified in the CARs
or even the AIM?

Would you fly the same circuit in a jet as you would
in a cub? If not, why?

Is even the circuit height specified in the CARs?

In a jet, I fly 1500 AGL as per the flight manual.
In the Pitts, I fly 1000 AGL.
In the Maule, I fly 500 AGL.

Anyone want to drop a dime on me to Enforcement
(again) for flying the circuit at different altitudes?

[Rookie50]

Straight in is common and accepted at an MF place like CYSN -- although when I've gone in there the circuit has always been clear. MF's are a funny bird actually.

[Rowdy Burns]

As a bit of an aside, are IFR aircraft required to report "down and clear"? For those unfamiliar with that phrase it's used to satisfy 602.101 (e).

Here is the VFR rules:

MF Reporting Procedures on Arrival

602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;

(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;

(d) when on final approach; and

(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.


Here are the IFR rules:

Reporting Procedures for IFR Aircraft When Approaching or Landing at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome


602.104 (1) This section applies to persons operating IFR aircraft when approaching or landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome, whether or not the aerodrome lies within an MF area.

(2) The pilot-in-command of an IFR aircraft who intends to conduct an approach to or a landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome shall report

(a) the pilot-in-command's intentions regarding the operation of the aircraft

(i) five minutes before the estimated time of commencing the approach procedure, stating the estimated time of landing,

(ii) when commencing a circling manoeuvre, and

(iii) as soon as practicable after initiating a missed approach procedure; and

(b) the aircraft's position

(i) when passing the fix outbound, where the pilot-in-command intends to conduct a procedure turn or, if no procedure turn is intended, when the aircraft first intercepts the final approach course,

(ii) when passing the final approach fix or three minutes before the estimated time of landing where no final approach fix exists, and

(iii) on final approach.


Just wondering if I carried this over from the VFR world into IFR. I don't think I'm the only guy out there who does this - seems like alot of folks will broadcast their taxi intentions after leaving the runway. But just curious what the proper thing is to do.

[triplese7en]

As a bit of an aside, are IFR aircraft required to report "down and clear"?

Yes, you should. It really should be included in the CARs. It makes sense that you should, right?

Now what has been bugging me for years is when I cancel the IFR advise I'm going to cross midfield and join the left downwind, Radio comes up and asks if I want to do a right hand downwind.

That is common. To be clear, the CARs don't allow you to do that.

However, also consider that the CARs don't allow you to fly in an MF unless the station knows about you (either by radio or by prior permission). So the FSS guy knows about all the traffic in the area, how is it any different than when tower tells you to join a right hand downwind when the CFS clearly indicates that circuits are left hand for a particular runway? Are you now to reject the tower's clearance to join a right hand downwind because the runway is established as a left hand circuit in the CFS? The CARs say that you shall follow the circuit direction as indicated in the CFS. What are you going to do?

I'm a by-the-book kind of guy (more so than about 95% of the pilots at my company) but I will admit I think it's safe to join opposite to the circuit pattern at an MF with an associated AAS (Aerodrome Advisory Service) or RemoteAAS, or at a towered airport. If it's at an ATF, then no question you should join the circuit as indicated in the CARs and if you plan to do a straight-in landing (which is legal) then you should join final outside the ATF.

What really makes me wonder is Radio always says "Report final"

That is also common. If you're flying into a MF area that doesn't have a ground station established then you are to make all the required calls as per the CARs. When an AAS or RAAS is associated with the MF (usually provided by an FSS) then there is a person who is monitoring the traffic in the area and providing advisory info for arriving and departing aircraft. When it's not busy, the guy really doesn't want to hear all your calls. Give him your initial call and then he might say "report final". So report final and if you want to save yourself a call, say "call you down and clear" in that call as well. The FSS guy will reply "roger". Sometimes if it's completely dead, I'm close (~20 miles) and I've gotten the advisory from the FSS, I'll just state the runway I'll be landing on and tell him I'll report "down and clear". I don't do this unless I'm familiar with how the particular FSS runs the show at the airport but in the end it saves everyone a lot of time.

[Colonel Sanders]

What are you going to do?

Join a straight-in final, outside the circuit.

I never, ever fly a right downwind or base
but sometimes I join a straight-in final from
the dead side - outside the circuit

[triplese7en]

What are you going to do?

Join a straight-in final, outside the circuit.

I never, ever fly a right downwind or base
but sometimes I join a straight-in final from
the dead side - outside the circuit

Me too. But seriously, you're going to reject the clearance when ATC clears you to do a right hand circuit on a left hand runway? I'm pretty sure they'd tell you to land and exit the runway or leave the area haha.

[photofly]

how is it any different than when tower tells you to join a right hand downwind when the CFS clearly indicates that circuits are left hand for a particular runway?

Precisely because of car 602.96(c) (my emphasis):

(c) make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement or where otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit;

A tower is the appropriate ATC unit, and they can authorize you to make turns other than to the left etc etc. At an untowered airport there's no appropriate ATC unit. That's the difference.

Are you now to reject the tower's clearance to join a right hand downwind because the runway is established as a left hand circuit in the CFS? The CARs say that you shall follow the circuit direction as indicated in the CFS.

Except where authorized by the tower.

What are you going to do?

What the tower tells you.

[crazy_aviator]

As an interesting note FSS/CARS/ unicom are an ADVISORY ( FSS does have a mandate to seperate IFR-IFR and IFR-VFR )station. These days, FSS is directing traffic to RH circuits in a LH pattern and will gladly advise runway change to other A/C IF you decide to change it to say, a 10 kt tailwind runway ! I believe the KEY here is traffic SEPERATION.

[triplese7en]

photofly... Thanks for providing that distinction! I read that too quickly.

I do believe it's technically not following the CARs when you accept the suggestion from the FSS at an MF to join a right hand circuit on a left-circuit runway, however, can you think of any reasons why it's unsafe to do so? I haven't been able to think of any.

[photofly]

photofly... Thanks for providing that distinction! I read that too quickly.

Me too, on first reading.

I do believe it's technically not following the CARs when you accept the suggestion from the FSS at an MF to join a right hand circuit on a left-circuit runway, however, can you think of any reasons why it's unsafe to do so? I haven't been able to think of any.

I like CS's suggestion of joining a long final. It seems to satisfy everyone's requirements.

[triplese7en]

I like CS's suggestion of joining a long final. It seems to satisfy everyone's requirements.

For the most part, I think that's great. But I'm thinking of a particular airport and a direction I regularly approach that airport at which seem to make joining a right downwind the safer option.

We can just say the runway is 09/27 at the MF and I'm approach to land on runway 09 from the south east. It is easiest for me to join a right hand downwind for 09 and continue the circuit to land. However, the CARs seem to indicate that I'm required to cross overhead the circuit and join the left downwind. I could deviate to the north so that I approach the MF area from the east and then join a left downwind but that would end up costing more fuel.

There is traffic coming from the north east that's planning on joining a left downwind for 09. If I cross over I believe I have a higher risk of having a collision with him than I do by staying on the south side of the airport and joining the right downwind like the FSS suggested (although we are in radio contact so this point doesn't have a ton of weight to it). If we were going to be turning final at the same time then we would make arrangements (usually one airplane volunteers to slow up or extend). The key here is the FSS guy knows everyone who is flying in the MF area or approaching to land or departing it. Everyone has radios unless an airplane has gotten permission to enter the MF without one—the FSS guy would know about him as well. I don't see how it's unsafe to join the right downwind in this case.

What are your thoughts?