French in Radio
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Re: French in Radio
There must be a mods convention or they are on a bike rallye as they have locked threads for a lot less shyte...
Re: French in Radio
I'm actually still finding value in this thread. Conflicting opinions are fine, and most people seem to be at least not descending into personal attacks.
This is an issue which tests our basic values, and it turns out that people have different values. Also turns out, it's pretty much impossible to change them. That doesn't mean we can't talk about our differences, it just means it's not very reasonable to expect other people to change their opinions.
A person once said to me that he didn't voice his opinion to try to change other people's minds, he voiced it to let others know that they weren't alone. I'm thinking this is one of those threads.
Fly safe, everyone.
This is an issue which tests our basic values, and it turns out that people have different values. Also turns out, it's pretty much impossible to change them. That doesn't mean we can't talk about our differences, it just means it's not very reasonable to expect other people to change their opinions.
A person once said to me that he didn't voice his opinion to try to change other people's minds, he voiced it to let others know that they weren't alone. I'm thinking this is one of those threads.
Fly safe, everyone.
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Re: French in Radio
A. Perhaps some of the pilots on the radio don't speak english. I'm not aware of any requirement for a pilot to speak English if he's only flying in a French speaking (or Chinese/Russian/Spanish) environment.cpt.sam wrote: WHY SHOULD A CONTROLLER NOT REVERT TO ENGLISH WHEN ENGLISH ONLY A/C ARE IN THE AIRSPACE?
B. Why should you get special treatment? ATC around the world is required to provide service in English (at international airports) to those who need it. They are not required to make English the only language, or even the primary language spoken.
Try flying to some smaller (non-international) airports around the world. English won't even be an option. ATC there doesn't know how to speak English, and most likely most of the pilots flying in the vicinity won't speak English either (unless they also fly internationally). The fact that you can even get English service at small airports in Quebec is a huge advantage you won't get anywhere else in the world. Can French pilots gets French service in Western Canada?
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Re: French in Radio
One language of communication is key to prevent accidents.
Re: French in Radio
Perhaps. The reality however is that people speak different languages today across the globe. And we won't see a single language that is understood by all in our lifetimes. And if and when it does happen chances are it won't be English anyway.bushhopper wrote:One language of communication is key to prevent accidents.
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Re: French in Radio
bushhopper wrote:One language of communication is key to prevent accidents.
And only one religion (or none at all) would prevent all the wars in this world.
English only even for aviation around this planet is wishful thinking at best. Leave your little aviation world and travel around the globe and you will see that "English" in aviation is not available everywhere.
It's like QNH and QFE. Although you can get QNH almost everywhere now be prepared to have your conversion chart handy just in case.
Re: French in Radio
In the early days of this policy I was concerned. I wondered how it would affect safety and predicted some serious accidents where failure to comprehend what the controller was saying to other pilots would be a problem. Time has proven me wrong and experience has helped me understand why.
Although English is the primary ATC language globally, several countries offer ATC services in their native language(s). This isn't anything new and in the early days of aviation it was very common. Back then why would a Russian controller (for example) care if some dude who only spoke and understood English wasn't able to enter Russian controlled airspace? And vice-versa.
Today I realize that it's much more important that the controller and the pilots understand each other than for others to understand each instruction and comment made. There are several accidents on the record where a contributing factor was the inability of the flight crew to comprehend instructions from ATC. Very few (if any) are on record that were caused by pilots misunderstanding a conversation between ATC and another aircraft. In fact this may even prevent pilots from acting on information not directed to them.
There are plenty of topics that are worthy of discussion that involve aviation and the language issue in Canada. ATC offered in French just isn't one of them. Statistically, and in practice it's not unique or of any importance to safety.
Although English is the primary ATC language globally, several countries offer ATC services in their native language(s). This isn't anything new and in the early days of aviation it was very common. Back then why would a Russian controller (for example) care if some dude who only spoke and understood English wasn't able to enter Russian controlled airspace? And vice-versa.
Today I realize that it's much more important that the controller and the pilots understand each other than for others to understand each instruction and comment made. There are several accidents on the record where a contributing factor was the inability of the flight crew to comprehend instructions from ATC. Very few (if any) are on record that were caused by pilots misunderstanding a conversation between ATC and another aircraft. In fact this may even prevent pilots from acting on information not directed to them.
There are plenty of topics that are worthy of discussion that involve aviation and the language issue in Canada. ATC offered in French just isn't one of them. Statistically, and in practice it's not unique or of any importance to safety.
Re: French in Radio
I do indeed intend to learn some frenchTeePeeCreeper wrote:Not every aviator in Canada speaks English and even if they did, it is THEIR RIGHT to speak in their native tongue.cpt.sam wrote:
Fact is all Pilots in Canada can speak English. Why do they choose to speak French?
we all speak English, that's exactly right.
I'm not against the frenchman speaking their language when it is safe, but having long gargled conversations over a position report and requiring a translation is moronic.
The amount of disrespect you have shown in this thread and others towards your French Canadian breathen is frankly sickening to say the least.
How about showing French Canadian aviators a little bit of respect? (RE: Francophones not "Frenchmen") If you can't at the very least do that, perhaps an attempt at keeping your bigoted views to yourself may be of better use for the rest of us?
As for your pitiful attempt at voicing a non existent threat (re: French on the radio) how about trying to make an effort at learning just enough of Canada's other official language as to alleviate your concerns of trading paint with another aircraft?
All the best mon ami petit cul, (That means "Friend" see... Learning French isn't that hard!)
TPC

That doesn't change the fact that french speaking crews intentionally reduce english situational awareness.
I have said several times in this thread that I AM NOT AGAINST FRENCH PILOTS.
I am against the arrogance they display quite often.
I dont know, perhaps it's just the one company that I share airspace with, I haven't had any trouble anywhere else.
Just at YWK.
No I'm not aiming to be malicious.
I can't find a translation for mon ami petit cul
my little friend...but what is cul?
OH OK
THANKS GOOGLE TRANSLATE
Wow, your cool now!
Last edited by cpt.sam on Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: French in Radio
What an excellent post!Sulako wrote:I'm actually still finding value in this thread. Conflicting opinions are fine, and most people seem to be at least not descending into personal attacks.
This is an issue which tests our basic values, and it turns out that people have different values. Also turns out, it's pretty much impossible to change them. That doesn't mean we can't talk about our differences, it just means it's not very reasonable to expect other people to change their opinions.
A person once said to me that he didn't voice his opinion to try to change other people's minds, he voiced it to let others know that they weren't alone. I'm thinking this is one of those threads.
Fly safe, everyone.

If problems are not voiced, no one knows there is an issue.
And for english only pilots, like myself, there certainly is an issue.
The francophone dudes got it good. NOT sarcasm!

If your operating a commercial airplane, you know english.... for sure!
So, perhaps if Canada is going to continue to permit this language barrier....perhaps basic french comms should be covered in CPL g/s?
It wouldn't help with the gargling and hummmms and haghghs, but any help would be step in the right direction!
Sam
Re: French in Radio
I am not referring to an airport in Quebec!Joe Blow Schmo wrote:A. Perhaps some of the pilots on the radio don't speak english. I'm not aware of any requirement for a pilot to speak English if he's only flying in a French speaking (or Chinese/Russian/Spanish) environment.cpt.sam wrote: WHY SHOULD A CONTROLLER NOT REVERT TO ENGLISH WHEN ENGLISH ONLY A/C ARE IN THE AIRSPACE?
B. Why should you get special treatment? ATC around the world is required to provide service in English (at international airports) to those who need it. They are not required to make English the only language, or even the primary language spoken.
Try flying to some smaller (non-international) airports around the world. English won't even be an option. ATC there doesn't know how to speak English, and most likely most of the pilots flying in the vicinity won't speak English either (unless they also fly internationally). The fact that you can even get English service at small airports in Quebec is a huge advantage you won't get anywhere else in the world. Can French pilots gets French service in Western Canada?

CYWK is in Labrador.... but is controlled by montreal acc
I guess because the borders around Wabush really stick out into Quebec.... idk

Re: French in Radio
I wouldn't go that far hopper.bushhopper wrote:One language of communication is key to prevent accidents.
I am not trying to start a force to abolish french on the radio.
But it would be nice to see some airmanship from french speaking crews / controllers when they know english crews are in the airspace.
It's simple and decent.
The real kicker is all the gargling and hummmms....It's as if some of them aren't naturally french

That is not a stab! It's a statement. An observation.

Re: French in Radio
Nice post.CID wrote:In the early days of this policy I was concerned. I wondered how it would affect safety and predicted some serious accidents where failure to comprehend what the controller was saying to other pilots would be a problem. Time has proven me wrong and experience has helped me understand why.
Although English is the primary ATC language globally, several countries offer ATC services in their native language(s). This isn't anything new and in the early days of aviation it was very common. Back then why would a Russian controller (for example) care if some dude who only spoke and understood English wasn't able to enter Russian controlled airspace? And vice-versa.
Today I realize that it's much more important that the controller and the pilots understand each other than for others to understand each instruction and comment made. There are several accidents on the record where a contributing factor was the inability of the flight crew to comprehend instructions from ATC. Very few (if any) are on record that were caused by pilots misunderstanding a conversation between ATC and another aircraft. In fact this may even prevent pilots from acting on information not directed to them.
There are plenty of topics that are worthy of discussion that involve aviation and the language issue in Canada. ATC offered in French just isn't one of them. Statistically, and in practice it's not unique or of any importance to safety.
You obviously have experience with language barriers.
However, to discount this as a non-issue, is ignorant.
I can not imagine anyone would be comfortable having an a/c take off in their direction in IMC ( i think they took vfr departure ) and have to wait for an extended conversation in a language you don't understand to get a position of the conflicting a/c.
YES, if it was all radar controlled then it would be an non issue. But, when you see the idiotic stuff some crews do in YWK, it makes you more aware of the possible risks associated therewith.
If these crews would just have the decency to state position / alt in english, it would take 4 or 5 seconds.
I doubt you see that arrogance and disrespect all over the world...? Or maybe you do

Sam
Re: French in Radio
Dude....your're from NFLD and you're complaining about not undertstanding a language?cpt.sam wrote:I can't get any more East dude!AuxBatOn wrote:You haven't been out east, have you?
Unless maybe hibernia?
Lord tunderin Jeesus.
I miss the granite planet. Finest people in Canada. I've seen the CBC put English subtitles when interviewing bay wops. Um...wait a minute. Are you a townie or a bay wop?
Maybe those pilots are aren't speaking French, they're speaking Canadian English.



Last edited by bmc on Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: French in Radio
Cpt.Sam, I work for Pascan, and I agree... It's Non-Radar / Controlled Airspace, so you gain situational awareness by listening to instructions directed to other aircraft.
I suggested we all switch to English going in and out of YWK in the past... I'll try that again.
Bon vols.
Benoit Dufresne
I suggested we all switch to English going in and out of YWK in the past... I'll try that again.
Bon vols.
Benoit Dufresne
Re: French in Radio
WOW.Benwa wrote:Cpt.Sam, I work for Pascan, and I agree... It's Non-Radar / Controlled Airspace, so you gain situational awareness by listening to instructions directed to other aircraft.
I suggested we all switch to English going in and out of YWK in the past... I'll try that again.
Bon vols.
Benoit Dufresne
just WOW
I may have had the blinders on myself... I did not expect a Pascan pilot to suggest that.
That is big of you!
Merci
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Re: French in Radio
The one thing I find very interesting in this -- the guys who have the "english" only attitude usually are the guys who English is their first language -- travel the world and listen to a French speaking controller speaking to a Spanish speaking pilot in English and any other mix you would like to throw in there -- the understanding is limited and confusing at times -- but they get through it -- as do we in Canada between English and French speaking areas -- the trick -- embrace it -- work with it instead of falling back on to this English only crap -- the world is a big place and we are just a little pimple on it's ass -- this is like trying to push a chain
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Re: French in Radio
But on the contrary, to be the devils advocate, only Quebec Pilots embrace bilingualism in Canadian aviation. All other provinces would support 1 language.
I highly doubt German, or Italian pilots would embrace french in international aviation. English is the easiest language to learn, hence why it is so popular. Spanish second most popular language, so if anything we should be learning Spanish not french? China has to many versions of its own language, people from the west can't understand the east and north vs south. If we are suppose to continue globalization, which is the natural next step in our evolution as a society we need to embrace 1 language, the easiest language, most functional language. Otherwise we will be stuck drinking wine and eating cheese while we are trying to catch fish in Quebec
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If you are religious or open minded enough to read the bible, God punished us with giving us so many languages. To make it more difficult for us as a society to continue our evolution in a sense. Natural progression is to end up again with 1 language world wide.
I highly doubt German, or Italian pilots would embrace french in international aviation. English is the easiest language to learn, hence why it is so popular. Spanish second most popular language, so if anything we should be learning Spanish not french? China has to many versions of its own language, people from the west can't understand the east and north vs south. If we are suppose to continue globalization, which is the natural next step in our evolution as a society we need to embrace 1 language, the easiest language, most functional language. Otherwise we will be stuck drinking wine and eating cheese while we are trying to catch fish in Quebec

If you are religious or open minded enough to read the bible, God punished us with giving us so many languages. To make it more difficult for us as a society to continue our evolution in a sense. Natural progression is to end up again with 1 language world wide.
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Re: French in Radio
That's right! English is the easiest language to speak on the planet. And not just this planet! I'll bet there are hundreds of planets scattered all over the universe where they speak English.If we are suppose to continue globalization, which is the natural next step in our evolution as a society we need to embrace 1 language, the easiest language, most functional language.

Re: French in Radio
English isn't my first language, and yet I am a big fan of using one language. In Belgium most people speak Dutch, others French and a small group German. Yet English is the only aviation language used. Aviation is an artificial invention, with almost no links to history or cultural growth etc, so it is perfectly suited to shape it for maximum safety and efficiency. One of those things is one language. After all, aviation is (at least in Europe) mainly used to travel great distances, this almost always involves crossing borders.Liquid Charlie wrote:The one thing I find very interesting in this -- the guys who have the "english" only attitude usually are the guys who English is their first language
There are indeed countries in Europe that use their local language on smaller airfields. I think this greatly decreases safety. Europe airspace is a lot more cramped up than Canadian airspace, and thus I really want to know what is going on around me if all VFR traffic is flying in a 5 km corridor between two busy CTR's. I also want to know what is going on around me in controlled airspace. Controllers make mistakes as well (albeit not often), so the more you know, the safer you are. Just looking out doesn't always do the trick. Being able to understand that a jet is 1000 ft above you breaking out of clouds and starting its approach (so you better move), certainly helps.
I also firmly believe that every person who is able to get a pilot license, is capable of learning the basic English to execute a safe flight. If you start early with it, and use for example English textbooks and the english words for the airplane parts, we are all making a big step forward in this. Also the native speakers have to use and learn the aviation-english though. It's neat you know tens of synonyms for an airplane or a squawk and use all kinds of beautiful metaphors while speaking on the radio, but that doesn't help safety or situational awareness either.
Just my 2 cents !
Re: French in Radio
I removed a bunch of posts, and gave a troll poster a vacation. Let's try to keep this on topic, shall we? Also, let's try to play nice. If you disagree with something posted, that's fine - but personal attacks are not fine.
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Re: French in Radio
I find waiving the bible here is not appropriate. This will not make this topic go forward, but to bring it backwards centuries.
Re: French in Radio
English is my first language, I recently flew into Trois-Rivieres. Once I got clear of talking to Montreal, it was all French. But that's fine. Trois-Rivieres is uncontrolled. Look around. Pay attention. I turned on all my lights. And one of the guys running the UNICOM was bi-lingual and was doing a bit of translating for me. Not a big deal.
If you're talking to a controller in Canada, you don't need to speak French. Small airports, just keep your eyes open. And maybe brush up on a few basic basic calls in French. Really, it's a non-issue.
If you're talking to a controller in Canada, you don't need to speak French. Small airports, just keep your eyes open. And maybe brush up on a few basic basic calls in French. Really, it's a non-issue.
Re: French in Radio
I didn't say it was a "non-issue". I said there are many more worthy topics to discuss. The fact that it bothers so many people makes it an "issue". What makes it unworthy of discussion is that the same old tired reasons are dragged out with absolutely no supporting statistics. "Ignorance" would suggest that I did absolutely no research or have absolutely no experience related to the subject matter. Not so.However, to discount this as a non-issue, is ignorant.
French in Quebec airspace and mixing languages in other areas in the world is nothing new. If there was any truth to the dooms-day talk on this thread there would be plenty of statistics to support them. But alas, there are very few instances where a pilot not understanding an instruction to another airplane was cause for an accident. There are plenty of accidents that were caused by a failure for a "foreign" crew to understand the regional "English" spoken. In some cases the "foreign" crew were from the UK or North America.
Situational awareness? In controlled airspace? Maybe you should concentrate on what the controller is telling YOU and not be distracted or preoccupied with instructions to other aircraft. Again, experience and statistics make this a discussion a dead end.
Re: French in Radio
I am alive thanks to my situational awareness in controlled airspace. A Romanian controller found it a good idea to "vector" me, west of her airport and in her CTR, in marginal VFR weather straight into a mountain to avoid a jet a few miles north of the airfield and leaving the area. Thanks to the fact that everybody spoke English, I knew there was no chance of collision and thus ignored her instructions. I have no idea what would have happened if I would have been convinced there was a jet close to me. I probably would have been too afraid to alter my course. Note that I was only a fresh PPL at the time, barely 100 hours. ATC was god, it's command gospel.CID wrote: Situational awareness? In controlled airspace? Maybe you should concentrate on what the controller is telling YOU and not be distracted or preoccupied with instructions to other aircraft. Again, experience and statistics make this a discussion a dead end.
Re: French in Radio
In NON-RADAR environment, you bet I want maximum Situational Awareness. The Original Poster was referring to Wabush, Labrador. Montreal center loses us on radar below approx 17 000'. Quite often, when weather is crap, we end up being 7-8 in the hold over NANRO fix. All separated by 1000'. Whenever possible, people land Rwy36 and takeoff Rwy18 because of Taxiway positions being on the north side (to cut down on taxi time... so people can get out of the HOLD). So you get people holding and then going down the ILS and alternatively people climbing straight at you when you're in the Hold.CID wrote:Situational awareness? In controlled airspace? Maybe you should concentrate on what the controller is telling YOU and not be distracted or preoccupied with instructions to other aircraft. Again, experience and statistics make this a discussion a dead end.
Now have a look at how many CADORS per day are out there because of people not following ATC instructions, once again, understanding and knowing what the aircraft around you are doing is quite important.
Add to the fact that sometimes you'll have the same controller working all the airspace East of Quebec city, up to Schefferville... and you want them to duplicate radio calls to translate our positions ?
I've flown in South America, Europe, Middle East... so I know that it's not unique to Quebec... but the situation in Wabush is one of the worst I've seen.
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Fly Safe