Blue Spruce Route?

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cookies
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Blue Spruce Route?

Post by cookies »

So I hear that this route is used for aircrafts that dont have the capability to fly directly over the Atlantic, but is that the only reason? Like if one was to fly to Israel, wouldnt it be quicker to fly directly towards Israel over the Atlantic, or is it safer to just fly in the arc since it goes over more land masses? Is flying over the Atlantic distance wise longer, quicker, shorter?
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BusDriver
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by BusDriver »

Blue spruce routes have VHF coverage all the way across depending on altitude, and radar coverage longer than you may think. Atlantic tracks change daily depending on wind and weather, typically the fastest routing is what they plan. Think tailwinds!
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Roar
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by Roar »

Cookies. Remember the earth is a sphere so flying to Israel from anywhere in Canada in a straight line does take one quite far north, it's only an "Arc" on a flat map.
I have flown numerous trip to Europe and Asia from Calgary in various aircraft from Navajos to Falcons and the route is very nearly the same with the exception of one A/C has to stop a lot and the other doesn't, so as Bus Driver said the Blue Spruce route is for aircraft that need fuel stops and don't have HF radios.
Interestingly enough in a Navajo from Calgary to Europe the longest over water leg is from Churchill to Iqaluit.
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x15
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by x15 »

The north Atlantic is comprised of MNPS airpspace (Minimum Navigation Performance Specification) To operate in this airspace you need many things. Government approval, 2 Long Range Navigation systems, HF radio, survival gear, training etc...

2 Long range navigation systems can be INS, IRS, GNSS and they need to be independent. The blue spruce routes via iceland are in some cases VHF all the way. But they also only require 1 LRNS. OR some depending on altitude you could use short range nav (VOR/DME/NDB)

The north atlantic is a non radar environment. Lateral separation is typically 1 degree of latitude between aircraft. Longitudinally (in trail) aircraft are separated by time. Approximately 10 minutes or 80NM between aircraft. This is accomplished using what is known as the Mach technique. You cross the oceanic entry point at cleared speed and altitude and you need to maintain that speed within .01 mach. Because the aircraft are all experiencing similar winds the separation between aircraft will be maintained.

This unfortunately has led to saturation over the NA. So in an effort to increase capacity aircraft require new avionics (ADS-C and CPDLC) or Automatic dependent surveillance Contract and Controller pilot Data Link Communication. ADS-C uses satellite to interface with the aircraft LRNS to determine a position and then sends it to ATC so they can generate a radar like return with no ground infrastructure. This is currently in place on the two fastest NAT tracks between North America and Europe. It will be the entire NAT track system starting next year. If not equipped you will need to take a random route (not fastest route) or the blue spruce routes (assuming the NAT is not over top of the blue spruce)

So it is faster to go direct along the arc. However some aircraft can't go direct (I for instance) I can make it from toronto to the UK and then I need to get fuel. But a 777 out of YYZ can go basically anywhere and they would take the best wind route across the ocean. Even if it is longer distance wise they will go where the wind is (east) or where it is not (west) in order to save time.
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JAHinYYC
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by JAHinYYC »

A north Atlantic crossing (me flying) is on my bucket list.

Just bought a Twin Comanche and am trying to assess whether this is doable with standard 84gal tanks or whether the tip tanks are a necessity beyond the granny gas factor.

I've been trying to conceptualize routing with 100LL availability and four hour legs at 160kts out of YYC.

The longest stretch seemed to be from Narsarsuaq to Ireland which had me running out of juice before I could land with legal reserves in Ireland.

Is there a website which discusses flight planning for this type of trip?

Better yet, something that discussed the westbound flight home against the winds? :shock:
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Two words: Max Conrad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Conrad ... ld_records
26 December 1964 PA-30 Twin Comanche C-1e Distance 12,678.83 km (7,878.26 mi) Cape Town - St Petersburg FL
Get a removable fuselage tank.
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YVRtoYYZ
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by YVRtoYYZ »

Also used by acft that aren't ETOPS certified or where ETOPS 120 acft have no suitable ETOPS ALTN station (usually wx) and must fly within 60 mins of land.
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Roar
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by Roar »

JAHinYYC, have a look at this routing Iqaluit-SondreStrom Fjord-Rekyavik-Prestwick
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CID
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by CID »

This fellow did the NAT crossing in a Twin Comanche years ago:

http://passages.winnipegfreepress.com/p ... id-109917/

It might be worth getting a copy of his book.
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cookies
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by cookies »

Thank you guys for the informative replies.

For anyone who has flown both routes... anything you can share on the differences or similarities between the two. Which do you prefer more?
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pelmet
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by pelmet »

x15 wrote: So in an effort to increase capacity aircraft require new avionics (ADS-C and CPDLC) or Automatic dependent surveillance Contract and Controller pilot Data Link Communication. ADS-C uses satellite to interface with the aircraft LRNS to determine a position and then sends it to ATC so they can generate a radar like return with no ground infrastructure. This is currently in place on the two fastest NAT tracks between North America and Europe. It will be the entire NAT track system starting next year. If not equipped you will need to take a random route (not fastest route) or the blue spruce routes (assuming the NAT is not over top of the blue spruce)
Just to add to this. CPDLC and ADS-C are not only oceanic stuff. We routinely communicate with Winnipeg, Edmonton and Vancouver Centre with these two pieces of equipment on flights within North America.

Blue Spruce routes. Never used them but the last company I flew with had TC authorization in an ops spec to use them for one aircraft type.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by Trapper »

This manual might whet your appetite. I have flown the route Goose Bay - Narsassuaq - Reykavik - Glasgow a couple of times in a SE aircraft. The only time to fly thos route instead of the azores is from May to September due to weather.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publicat ... %202004.pd
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by Trapper »

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Roar
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Re: Blue Spruce Route?

Post by Roar »

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