Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

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flyinthebug
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by flyinthebug »

J31 wrote:Looks like they lost their single pilot IFR ops spec.
That's how I read it as well. All IFR flights must be 2 crew.

We had the same Ops spec at another airline on that same field in the mid 90s. I did a full IFR ride SPIFR in a PA31-350 and because of the two crew requirement, the inspector wrote right on my PPC...IFR 2 crew, VFR single pilot. I still have the card as I thought it was likely unique. I later came to find out that was not as unique as I thought and some others had the same exact statement written on their PPC cards.
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Jack In The Box
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by Jack In The Box »

stef wrote:"Since the accident, NAV CANADA has published an approved instrument approach procedure for the North Spirit Lake airport. For its part, Keystone Air Service has: revised its operations manual to better reflect operational requirements in icing conditions; implemented a multi-crew policy which applies to all instrument flights; amended its flight training record-keeping procedures to make it easier and more efficient to prove that all required training has been completed; and revised its operational flight plan form to include the calculated landing weight and centre of gravity."

Hmmm. Multi crew will help I suppose. Not dispatching a rookie in a snow storm would be better still.

Ya great, now they dispatch TWO rookies :evil:
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by razorblade »

"There was no indication that either the pilot or the operator had developed an improvised instrument approach to CKQ3."
B*llshit. How else was he so far below the AMA of 7200 without an IFR approach, and perfectly on the centreline in the middle on a garbage-weather day?
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vstrom
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by vstrom »

Just saw the CTV Winnipeg news and they had interviewed a George R. as an aviation consultant.

Wasn't he the CP at Keystone during the past few accidents?

Why is this company still around?
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switchflicker
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by switchflicker »

I missed the news, what were they interviewing Geo about?

Thanks

Sw
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77W
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by 77W »

Not trying to defame the operator in any way. Anyone else find it odd that Keystone seems to have only 1 "incident" on wikipedia, and they don't exist on aviation-safety? I ended up discovering this when I was trying to read up on previous accidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Air_Service
http://aviation-safety.net/database/ope ... y.php?id=C

Corporate image cleansing? Can't really find much on google from the previous incidents I know of.
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goldeneagle
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by goldeneagle »

razorblade wrote:
"There was no indication that either the pilot or the operator had developed an improvised instrument approach to CKQ3."
B*llshit. How else was he so far below the AMA of 7200 without an IFR approach, and perfectly on the centreline in the middle on a garbage-weather day?
It's assumed everywhere, a let down was done in cloud. But, from my admittedly short reads, it seems the flight departed in decent conditions, and the bad weather was on the arrival end. Is there anything definitive anywhere about a descent at destination, or is it possible that the flight was running at treetops for that last however many miles to arrive there ? I've never flown that area, but google terrain maps look pretty flat to me.

The report does talk about a descent in the vicinity of destination, but, I didn't see anything about how this was concluded, and no mention of how / why a low level .. run in was not considered as the arrival vector. While certainly not a pleasant or comfortable trip, google maps terrain view suggests, with a 300 foot ceiling, it's emminently do-able from a hundred or so miles back.
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Doc
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by Doc »

goldeneagle wrote:While certainly not a pleasant or comfortable trip, google maps terrain view suggests, with a 300 foot ceiling, it's emminently do-able from a hundred or so miles back.

"Eminently do-able". From a hundred or so miles back? With a 300 foot ceiling? With passengers? In snow? In a Navajo? Sounds like a Tombstone move to me.
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cncpc
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by cncpc »

goldeneagle wrote:
razorblade wrote:
"There was no indication that either the pilot or the operator had developed an improvised instrument approach to CKQ3."
B*llshit. How else was he so far below the AMA of 7200 without an IFR approach, and perfectly on the centreline in the middle on a garbage-weather day?
It's assumed everywhere, a let down was done in cloud. But, from my admittedly short reads, it seems the flight departed in decent conditions, and the bad weather was on the arrival end. Is there anything definitive anywhere about a descent at destination, or is it possible that the flight was running at treetops for that last however many miles to arrive there ? I've never flown that area, but google terrain maps look pretty flat to me.

The report does talk about a descent in the vicinity of destination, but, I didn't see anything about how this was concluded, and no mention of how / why a low level .. run in was not considered as the arrival vector. While certainly not a pleasant or comfortable trip, google maps terrain view suggests, with a 300 foot ceiling, it's emminently do-able from a hundred or so miles back.
I believe the surviving passenger said something about being in clouds circling waiting for the snowplow to finish.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by Strobes »

77W wrote:Not trying to defame the operator in any way. Anyone else find it odd that Keystone seems to have only 1 "incident" on wikipedia, and they don't exist on aviation-safety? I ended up discovering this when I was trying to read up on previous accidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Air_Service
http://aviation-safety.net/database/ope ... y.php?id=C

Corporate image cleansing? Can't really find much on google from the previous incidents I know of.
Tried fixing the wikipedia article, website won't accept my submission... wierd...
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by Rookie50 »

goldeneagle wrote:
razorblade wrote:
"There was no indication that either the pilot or the operator had developed an improvised instrument approach to CKQ3."
B*llshit. How else was he so far below the AMA of 7200 without an IFR approach, and perfectly on the centreline in the middle on a garbage-weather day?
It's assumed everywhere, a let down was done in cloud. But, from my admittedly short reads, it seems the flight departed in decent conditions, and the bad weather was on the arrival end. Is there anything definitive anywhere about a descent at destination, or is it possible that the flight was running at treetops for that last however many miles to arrive there ? I've never flown that area, but google terrain maps look pretty flat to me.

The report does talk about a descent in the vicinity of destination, but, I didn't see anything about how this was concluded, and no mention of how / why a low level .. run in was not considered as the arrival vector. While certainly not a pleasant or comfortable trip, google maps terrain view suggests, with a 300 foot ceiling, it's emminently do-able from a hundred or so miles back.

I'm only assuming you are not a pilot. Please tell us this is so.
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flyinthebug
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by flyinthebug »

Strobes wrote:
77W wrote:Not trying to defame the operator in any way. Anyone else find it odd that Keystone seems to have only 1 "incident" on wikipedia, and they don't exist on aviation-safety? I ended up discovering this when I was trying to read up on previous accidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Air_Service
http://aviation-safety.net/database/ope ... y.php?id=C

Corporate image cleansing? Can't really find much on google from the previous incidents I know of.
Tried fixing the wikipedia article, website won't accept my submission... wierd...
Wow! I just tried to edit it on wiki as well and wouldnt accept mine either?? Keystone must have some friends in VERY high places if they can block wiki. Even the mighty US0fA wasn't able to do that? I also find it VERY odd that they somehow have had these accidents all but removed from history? Did they make some sort of settlement after the last crashes that allowed them to "cover up" their accident history? I don't even know if that's possible?? Hmmmmm interesting.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by JigglyBus »

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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by CpnCrunch »

flyinthebug wrote:
Strobes wrote:
77W wrote:Not trying to defame the operator in any way. Anyone else find it odd that Keystone seems to have only 1 "incident" on wikipedia, and they don't exist on aviation-safety? I ended up discovering this when I was trying to read up on previous accidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Air_Service
http://aviation-safety.net/database/ope ... y.php?id=C

Corporate image cleansing? Can't really find much on google from the previous incidents I know of.
Tried fixing the wikipedia article, website won't accept my submission... wierd...
Wow! I just tried to edit it on wiki as well and wouldnt accept mine either?? Keystone must have some friends in VERY high places if they can block wiki. Even the mighty US0fA wasn't able to do that? I also find it VERY odd that they somehow have had these accidents all but removed from history? Did they make some sort of settlement after the last crashes that allowed them to "cover up" their accident history? I don't even know if that's possible?? Hmmmmm interesting.
Well it looks like one of your entries got into the article. Occasionally wikipedia can be slow to show your changes on the actual page (but if you try to edit the page you'll see your change there). It doesn't look like there has been any censhorship - I think just nobody has bothered adding that info to the article until now.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by CpnCrunch »

goldeneagle wrote: It's assumed everywhere, a let down was done in cloud. But, from my admittedly short reads, it seems the flight departed in decent conditions, and the bad weather was on the arrival end. Is there anything definitive anywhere about a descent at destination, or is it possible that the flight was running at treetops for that last however many miles to arrive there ? I've never flown that area, but google terrain maps look pretty flat to me.

The report does talk about a descent in the vicinity of destination, but, I didn't see anything about how this was concluded, and no mention of how / why a low level .. run in was not considered as the arrival vector. While certainly not a pleasant or comfortable trip, google maps terrain view suggests, with a 300 foot ceiling, it's emminently do-able from a hundred or so miles back.
According to the report, ceilings were about 150-200ft AGL at the time of the accident, so it seems pretty certain that he either descended over 1500 feet below minimums, or the ice brought him down (but if so, why no emergency call?)

Here is an interesting titbit from the report:

"During a line indoctrination flight, the occurrence pilot conducted a missed approach at the destination airport due to low cloud. The pilot was advised by the supervising pilot that senior management would not be pleased with the decision to conduct a missed approach."

Perhaps the Keystone management should move their operation to Russia - I hear they would fit in quite well over there.
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flyinthebug
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by flyinthebug »

CpnCrunch wrote:
flyinthebug wrote:
Wow! I just tried to edit it on wiki as well and wouldnt accept mine either?? Keystone must have some friends in VERY high places if they can block wiki. Even the mighty US0fA wasn't able to do that? I also find it VERY odd that they somehow have had these accidents all but removed from history? Did they make some sort of settlement after the last crashes that allowed them to "cover up" their accident history? I don't even know if that's possible?? Hmmmmm interesting.
Well it looks like one of your entries got into the article. Occasionally wikipedia can be slow to show your changes on the actual page (but if you try to edit the page you'll see your change there). It doesn't look like there has been any censhorship - I think just nobody has bothered adding that info to the article until now.
Looks like you are correct CpnC. I thought it was odd that wiki rejected two of our entries from two different ISP`s. In any case, after reading the link to the TSB site, I realized our conspiracy theory was put to rest lol. :oops:
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by cncpc »

There is a requirement that comments on Wikipedia be neutral in nature. This kind of eliminates opinion, and favors things that can be referenced somewhere else.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

with a 300 foot ceiling, it's emminently do-able from a hundred or so miles back.
A friend of mine flew an AD-1 Douglas Skyraider
from Iceland to Happy Valley under those conditions -
so yes, it's do-able.

Image
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flyinthebug
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by flyinthebug »

cncpc wrote:There is a requirement that comments on Wikipedia be neutral in nature. This kind of eliminates opinion, and favors things that can be referenced somewhere else.
Ill just cite the 12 links to the TSB website. Hows that cncpc? That should eliminate my "opinion".
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by Rookie50 »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
with a 300 foot ceiling, it's emminently do-able from a hundred or so miles back.
A friend of mine flew an AD-1 Douglas Skyraider
from Iceland to Happy Valley under those conditions -
so yes, it's do-able.

Image
Maybe they should put that into their SOP's then. No SPIFR. 200 foot .. running authorized though. :)
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by Indanao »

flyinthebug wrote:
cncpc wrote:There is a requirement that comments on Wikipedia be neutral in nature. This kind of eliminates opinion, and favors things that can be referenced somewhere else.
Ill just cite the 12 links to the TSB website. Hows that cncpc? That should eliminate my "opinion".
And...you can pick up Ice above 200ft IFR. So why go making derogatory Wikepedia entries, when the same conditions may have done the same to you. Just saying.
Two Pilots may not matter either. "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
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flyinthebug
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by flyinthebug »

Indanao wrote:
flyinthebug wrote:
cncpc wrote:There is a requirement that comments on Wikipedia be neutral in nature. This kind of eliminates opinion, and favors things that can be referenced somewhere else.
Ill just cite the 12 links to the TSB website. Hows that cncpc? That should eliminate my "opinion".
And...you can pick up Ice above 200ft IFR. So why go making derogatory Wikepedia entries, when the same conditions may have done the same to you. Just saying.
Two Pilots may not matter either. "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
My entries did not take, and I have not and will not be attempting to edit it again. I said that tongue in cheek to cncpc that's all.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by SKYPILOT1956 »

Keystone has evolved over almost 30 years as a per CARS, the post CARS operation.

1996 The new CARs permitted single pilot descents to CAP limits. Prior to 1996 CAP limit approaches required two qualified pilots. The was before CRM became effective. The results however produced a mentorship culture of sorts. Two pilot weather briefings, Two pilot dispatch, Two pilot redundancy.

1996 CARS gave 703 operators a green light for Single Pilot IFR. This was great. Until the pool of IFR experience dried up. Our operator experienced this the hard way.

Now, The two pilot IFR is an insurance saving measure. Insurance companies tolerate Single Pilot IFR, but the cost of this coverage is higher.

Keystone is not the same air service it was in 1996, 2001, or 2012. Mr Riopka, and Mr Iafolla have both brought the Keystone corporate culture into safe Two Pilot workplace.

Single Pilot IFR to CAP minimums has been a bad move since 1996. The industry record has proved it. What ever the reason for our operator to choose two pilot operations. KUDOS !
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by BverLuver »

Nice attempt there Cliff, what a load of BS!! The company doesn't deserve ANY kudos for needlessly KILLING 5 people in totally preventable accidents were it not for that Company culture.
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Re: Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

Post by SKYPILOT1956 »

BverLuver. The point I had was not directed to Cliff, or in the support of Cliff.

"Yes" The deaths of January 10, 2012 may well have been preventable, But the authorized 703 prescription for Single Pilot IFR was my focus.

Operation of Single Pilot IFR without CP or OPS MGR supervision, or a second pilot has always been an accident waiting to happen. The perfect storm came with both 1200 GFA charts on January 10, 2012 and the probee self dispatched the flight

BvrLuver. Remember October 6, 2005 ? A perfect storm hit the Winnipeg aviation community then too. Then too, the Single Pilot IFR flight had no management supervision either.

The company returning to two pilot IFR is a return to common sense that was abandoned in 1996 with CARS allowing Single Pilot IFR to CAP minimums
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