Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

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cdnpilot77
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Colonel Sanders wrote:Does this mean that we have to take Justin Beiber
and Celine Dion back?

I can't speak for Celine but the courts down there don't like egg throwing from mature adults apparently, we just might HAVE to take him back when he gets deported!
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Colonel Sanders »

the courts down there don't like egg throwing from mature adults
I suppose that's as good a defense as any.
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B52
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by B52 »

I recall being a foreign pilot getting my first work permit in Canada.
I had to take a jobs that NO other Canadian pilot would accept
and was a virtual slave. Despite that I quit the underbelly operators
and ended up in worse operations.

I did not have a choice until I became a landed immigrant.

I recall being treated like dirt by Immigration officials,
of Air Traffic Controllers who refused to communicate because I had a rather strong
accent from another English speaking commonwealth country.

I also recall how operators would force me to pay for my own instrument renewal
when their own aircraft were so unairworthy that inspectors refused to fly in them.

Now, I am optimistic that those operators are no longer in existence now but
I doubt that the industry is entirely free of them.

If you add up the total number of commercial pilots flying in Canada
the number flying with fresh foreign accents is really quite low.

When I listen to ATC, these days the odds of hearing "fresh" foreign accents is rather unlikely.

There are however a higher number of people like myself whose accents while still noticeable
no longer sound as though they just got off the boat.

By the same token, lots of Canadian pilots seek adventure overseas and everyone needs
to remember that one day, they could one day suddenly encounter personal circumstances
that force them to seek employment in another country and encounter the
anti foreign worker mentality.


I have no doubt that many foreign pilots in Canada don't to exactly want to be here
and everyone needs to show some empathy instead of bitching about foreign pilots.

Those who bitch about foreign pilots might well be on the receiving end in another country in the future
and just as likely to run into those who don't like foreign pilots stealing their jobs.

..
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by GRK »

Hmmmm… the difference between a Canadian Pilot working overseas and a foreign one working in Canada is day versus night. The Canadians working overseas are needed as the country(s) they work in almost ALWAYS need them, they are available and very well qualified, the locals either aren't qualified yet or don't want the job. The foreign pilots in Canada ( the ones without landed imm status) are stealing work from qualified pilots who can't get work in their own country because of a corrupt policy and a few sleazy operators who take full advantage of that! Lots of back and forth between many posters on this but it's clear that Canada has the pilots and resources to put it's own citizens to work but refuses to do so. See how it's different?
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by digits_ »

GRK wrote:Hmmmm… the difference between a Canadian Pilot working overseas and a foreign one working in Canada is day versus night. The Canadians working overseas are needed as the country(s) they work in almost ALWAYS need them, they are available and very well qualified, the locals either aren't qualified yet or don't want the job. The foreign pilots in Canada ( the ones without landed imm status) are stealing work from qualified pilots who can't get work in their own country because of a corrupt policy and a few sleazy operators who take full advantage of that! Lots of back and forth between many posters on this but it's clear that Canada has the pilots and resources to put it's own citizens to work but refuses to do so. See how it's different?
No, it's exactly the same. I assume you are referring to certain Asian and African operators that hire Canadians ? Apparently the Asian/African operators are convinced it's easier/cheaper to hire foreign pilots instead of training people from their own country.

Which is exactly the same thing Gilles is fighting against.


Morally, you should choose: either allow a global exchange of pilots, or keep every pilot inside his own country. Which option do you want ?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

B52 wrote:I recall being a foreign pilot getting my first work permit in Canada
..
This is not directed against foreign pilots and never has been. For starters, I am an immigrant from Haiti. This is not about foreign pilots who come to seek work and establish themselves in Canada.

This is about Canadian employers who go to the Government of Canada and claim that they cannot find a qualified applicant in this country in order to favor a foreign pilot over a Canadian one. Any excuse to overlook Canadians is accepted.

Some claim lack of a type rating.
Some claim lack of fighter experience.
Some require a degree in test flying from the test flying University.
Others require fluent Mandarin as language requirement.

Any excuse made up to bypass a Canadian over whatever foreign pilot the employer is keen to hire seems to be accepted.

The effort put in convincing ESDC that the Canadian pilot is not qualified is a mere formality. Just put an ad on Job bank and on AvCanada for two weeks with whatever requirements you can think of and then go tell ESDC that no qualified applicants applied. Even if a dozen Canadian Mandarin speaking, fighter qualified pilots with a PHD degree from the MIT Test Pilot Academy did apply, how would ESDC know that the employer just didn't send their Resumes in the shredder ? They have to take the employers' word for it and have no way in verifying. Their normal manner to check is to look in the ESDC computer database to see how many Mandarin-Speaking Fighter Experienced Pilots who are Holders of a Degree from a Test Pilot Pilot University are collecting Employment Insurance in Canada. Their computer will correctly indicate NONE. That gives them the green light to issue the LMO.

If one of these pilots decided to contact Gilles Hudicourt who in turn would send this guy's Resume to ESDC to show them that this one guy was Canadian and filled all the requirements but wasn't hired, all the employer has do to justify not hiring this qualified Canadian is to tell ESDC that their inquires about this candidate revealed he had a character flaw. Why else would he be un-employed with all these qualifications ? They might even interview the guy for good measure.

It's all a great scam. It we let it continue, it wont be long before more and more Canadian employers find an ever increasing excuse to hire foreign pilots to take jobs that should go to Canadians.

Let's make a stand!

Except in very limited cases, to work as a pilot in Canada, one should at the very least be a landed Immigrant. And one should hold a Canadian Licence. Not an FLVC.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:48 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Pop n Fresh »

Fluent Mandrin?

The ad posted here that turned into a big discussion, looking for guys that spoke fluent Mandrin was for a job in China. Unless you are referring to something else.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Pop n Fresh wrote:Fluent Mandrin?

The ad posted here that turned into a big discussion, looking for guys that spoke fluent Mandrin was for a job in China. Unless you are referring to something else.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.1152527
Mandarin required in worker permits for B.C. mine project
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

A few Rationales given by LMO aplicants for needing to hire foreign pilots

Canadian Helicopters Ltd :
Entire Industry lacks experience

Canadian Armed Forces :

Now here is a good one. Sunwing and Canjet claim they cannot hire Canadian experienced aircraft captains because they lack a type rating, but the RCAF uses the exact opposite claim to justify hiring this highly experienced RAF NIMROD pilot who does not have a CP-140 qualification, but has many hours doing his job of Maritime surveillance. With "Minimal Training" he can be trained on the CP-140. I would tend to agree.
Mr So and so is an Experience RAF NIMROD aircraft commander and instructor pilot. With Minimal training he be employed as a CP-140 Aurora aircraft commander where his experience will be used to train RCAF long range patrol crews.
Sunwing's President once said that accepting an application from a Airbus pilot (or NIMROD) pilot on a B737NG (or CP-140 Aurora) was like receiving an application from heart surgeon when one actually needed a brain surgeon.

Just to show you. Whatever one writes on this LMO application as an excuse to justify a foreign pilot can and most likely will be accepted......
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Pop n Fresh »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.1152527
Mandarin required in worker permits for B.C. mine project
That calls for an updated Yakov Smirnoff. "Canada, what a country!"
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by GRK »

Digits:

With all due respect, I think you miss the point. The Middle East, China, most of Asia, Africa and a few other places have almost NO local expertise to fly their own equipment. None…nada…zip…and are forced to supply foreign validated pilots to ensure their carriers are able to even operate, expand and make money. There are very few QUALIFIED local pilots as the training infrastructure simply doesn't have the ability to train them well enough to hop into any seat in a heavy jet right away. These Canadian (and many other country's pilots) are not stealing anything. The local boys and girls do eventually get there, but it's a long process. The FLVC issue in Canada is entirely different. Canada has unemployed QUALIFIED pilots available to work, but they are being scammed out of work by a loophole in the system that both the regulator and the Harper government have chosen to overlook and by all accounts (thank you Gilles) a few Airlines as well. It is illegal and highly unfair to those who are willing and able to work. To say it is the same is plainly wrong and you should take a stand yourself. Morally? I know where I stand on this issue…been there and where I work now (been away from Canada for 10 years) is great example of how the system can be good for both locals and foreign pilots. (no it's not EK) Please think carefully before you make a statement that the two issues are the same. Clearly they are not.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by lilflyboy262 »

Actually GRK, that is no longer the case in many of these countries.

The only way for foreign pilots who want to come into Canada with no previous experience working there is via an LMO. There is no way to tell the difference between someone who wants to live in Canada for the rest of their lives, or someone who wants to work there for 1-2yrs.
In blocking one, you block the other.
I find that incredibly rich if the person driving this thread, is also an immigrant.

After one year of working in Canada you can apply for a normal working visa which takes over 13 months to process at this current time.

Going back to the point about Canadians overseas.
I find the comments about the skill or labour levels come from pilots who have never done the expat thing.

For the application on the work permits, it is no different to what the OP talked about in a previous post.

They advertise the position with minimums that is impossible for any locals to have. Exactly what is happening in Canada. Other words, they are looking for experience.

As GRK just tried pointing out. There is no real "expertise" on type in the country. This must also be the case in Canada too?
The LMO is required to list the job to certain minimums that the applicant obviously has. They are required to then list reasons why any local applicants had there application rejected.
If no Canadians are available or want the position, then how is it stealing from a Canadian pilot?
Pilots that do not meet the minimum required need not apply. Just like any other job advert.
The job was never available to them in the first place.

To try and say on one hand that they could train suitable Canadian pilots to fill the post, rather than taking a foreign pilot, is no different to saying that in these foreign countries, they could train a local pilot to fill the spot that a Canadian pilot is taking. No different at all. Especially when the population can be as much as 3-4 times that of Canada's.

Nobody really likes having foreign workers in their country. I get that. I have been guilty of that too. But you have to remember that for most part, we are the pot calling the kettle black.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by digits_ »

GRK wrote:The Middle East, China, most of Asia, Africa and a few other places have almost NO local expertise to fly their own equipment. None…nada…zip…and are forced to supply foreign validated pilots to ensure their carriers are able to even operate, expand and make money. There are very few QUALIFIED local pilots as the training infrastructure simply doesn't have the ability to train them well enough to hop into any seat in a heavy jet right away. These Canadian (and many other country's pilots) are not stealing anything.
What would happen if no foreign pilots were allowed in Asia or Africa ? The local companies would invest in education (eg: pay money) for their local citizens. By working there as a foreigner, you are keeping this system in place that just bypassess the locals.

For the other part, lilflyboy262 explains what I mean. :prayer:
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by cdnpilot77 »

What would happen if no foreign pilots were allowed in Asia or Africa ?
Then we would have many more Canadian pilots on the market in Canada, obviously.

But why is it relevant what they do in other parts of the world? We have the ability to effect policy as Canadians in only 1 country (Canada) in the best interest of Canadians. Saying we should do something because "they do it too" is way off the mark.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

lilflyboy262 wrote: The only way for foreign pilots who want to come into Canada with no previous experience working there is via an LMO.........
......I find that incredibly rich if the person driving this thread, is also an immigrant.
An LMO is, in a formal manner :
1) A job offer to a Foreign Pilot from a Canadian employer.
2) A formal declaration by said employer to the Government of Canada that the employer has attempted to hire a qualified Canadian pilot or train one and was unable to do so for lack of a qualified Canadian pilot.
3) A petition from the employer to ESDC to allow a foreign pilot into Canada as a TFW instead of hiring a Canadian because there are no qualified Canadians to to fill the job offer the employer has.

I did not come here with an LMO. I arrived as an ATPL-rated Landed Immigrant. And I had to look for a job. I even did fire patrols alongside kids freshly out of flight school......
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by digits_ »

cdnpilot77 wrote: But why is it relevant what they do in other parts of the world? We have the ability to effect policy as Canadians in only 1 country (Canada) in the best interest of Canadians. Saying we should do something because "they do it too" is way off the mark.
Because this thread is/was taking a turn from "it's illegal" to "it's wrong". If there are legal arguments against it, fine, use them, fight the system, that's what the laws are there for anyway...
On the other hand, if you're saying it's "wrong" or "immoral" or ... to hire temporary foreigners, then you should be honest with yourself and admit that the system that apparently lots of Canadian pilots hate, is being used by Canadian pilots themselves to work in other countries as well. If you want to stop foreign pilots to work in Canada, you should also stop Canadian pilots to work in other countries. But indeed, as you stated, that would mean ...
cdnpilot77 wrote: Then we would have many more Canadian pilots on the market in Canada, obviously.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

digits_ wrote: Because this thread is/was taking a turn from "it's illegal" to "it's wrong".
That is just the way you see it. Look at the LMO applications and look who is being hired "because there are no qualified applicants in Canada". There are over 100 applications posted here. Look through them.
Low time flight instructors.
Sightseeing pilots.
Power line or pipeline patrol pilots.
Single engine float pilots (bush).
Helicopter pilots.
Crop Dusters.
Chief pilots.
Director of Operations.
Test Pilots.
Simulator Instructors.
703, 704, and 705 line pilots.
Military pilots.

Basically, anyone who wants to hire any foreigner instead of a Canadian just has to jump through a few hoops and he gets the green light.........

Its a joke. Any excuse is valid to by-pass a Canadian in favor of any foreigner.........

There was a time at least when one needed a Canadian licence to fly commercially in Canada but not any more. Any Licence from any ICAO member country can and will be validated by TC for unrestricted commercial flying in Canada........
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by GRK »

Digit et al…
"you can't fake listening…it shows…"
Try to listen to what is being said here…the ones who understand are the ones who have the facts. I am sorry to say it appears you don't.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Colonel Sanders »

This will drive Gilles nuts:

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/ ... rial-2014/
The Alberta Federation of Labour said that 65 of its ironworkers were laid off on Tuesday.

“They called the guys into an office, told them that they were gone, and they literally walked past the replacements on the way out,” McGowan said.

He alleged the foreign workers from Croatia are making about $18 an hour — half the wage of the Canadians.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Sasquash »

to be honest, as CANADIANS, it should drive EVERYONE nuts, shouldn't it??
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Sorry. My point was that this problem is not
unique to pilots, though Gilles kind of focuses
on that.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Sasquash »

Ok, got it, you're right.

On the other hand thank God Gilles does focus on this, because the government sure as hell lost their focus on this issue...
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Colonel Sanders »

the government sure as hell lost their focus
The first thing you need to realize is that the goverment
does not serve the citizens. The citizens serve the government.

Once this concept is understood, everything starts to fall
into place.

Politicians only want to get re-elected, so that they can
continue to exercise their power, and spend the citizen's
money. To influence them, you must affect their ability
to get re-elected.

The other branch of government is the unelected but
extremely powerful bureaucracy, which even the elected
politicians have little or no influence (let alone control)
over.

Ask Tony Clements about this.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by planett »

Colonel Sanders:

I don't know the author, but "A government should be afraid of the people, and not the other way around." We have lost sight of the fact that we elect them, we outnumber them, and we can demand more of them if only we pay attention. Only when we stand up will "public service" be an honourable career again.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Dash-Ate »

All you Harperites are learning fast what zealots care about.
(Go Israel!!!????) :(

This post isn't about politics it's about people who hate our way of life. You'll see. We want peace, freedom, normal families, secure work. They want slavery, them on top of the pyramid, and to smash our beliefs and families.
Of course the devil will wrap himself in our flag, you think he's stupid?
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That'll buff right out :rolleyes:
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