Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

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Raymond Hall
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Raymond Hall »

teacher wrote:In my opinion than I would hve to say if you retired prior to the law changing than you stay retired. If you hit the age after the law changed than you could stay.
What many fail to consider was that the mandatory retirement exemption in the Canadian Human Rights Act, now repealed, was never absolute. Since its introduction in 1978 it was always conditional on age 60 being "the normal age of retirement for individuals working in positions similar." In other words, there was never any guarantee or legitimate expectation that mandatory retirement would always be available, even if the exemption was never repealed.

That conditional factor is the basis for the argument for reinstatement. If age 60 wasn't the normal age of retirement, the termination was not justified, absent other grounds.

The Federal Court's decision says that the Tribunal must reconsider the comparator group question on the basis of the functional components of the Air Canada pilot's job. I can think of literally dozens of functional characteristics of the jobs of other airline pilots in Canada that are similar to those of the Air Canada pilot's job, but I can't come up of dozens of characteristics where the functional characteristics differ. Its not a slam dunk, but in my view, the things are different this time 'round.

The evidence before the Tribunal was that Air Canada pilots accounted for fewer than 30% of airline pilots in Canada, not the majority. So it will be interesting to see how the Tribunal responds to the requirement to reconsider the comparator group question when that question arrives back on its doorstep.
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777longhaul
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by 777longhaul »

Gravol

your post:

When I read these threads all I think about is inherent selfishness.

I believe one of the greatest issues of our time is the inability of young people to find well paying secure jobs in their respective fields. Mature or not, if some of these guys want to keep working, go fly for some regional op who compensates a fraction of your current position. This isn't about age. It's about scoring a comfortable seat and eventually making some of the best compensation in the country. There are many mature, experienced, and qualified / capable young pilots ready to move on.

There are more factors to this than what meet the eye and we're all bias for our own subjective reasons. Some people for sure want to keep working - so keep working. You don't need to be in that role to stay active in the industry. Retiring is a part of life. Some positions require it for a variety of reasons.The golden days have and always will be limited. If the age was increased to 65, 70, it would still be a problem for those turning 64 and 69.

============================================

The inherent selfishness, are only the ones that are putting the jack-boots to the age 60 pilots, so they can get into the force retired seats, while they are still warm. It is NO more selfish, one way or the other. It is equal. Any pilot can stay as long as they are qualified, able, and willing to stay, they ALL have a choice now. That is not selfish.

I tried the Regionals. Got one email response from a Chief Pilot. He politely, advised me, that I was to old. The others did not respond.

YOU are correct when you say, "Retiring is a part of life." And only the pilot, should decide when she/he is ready, they have a choice, now, and it is a good thing for everyone.
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777longhaul
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by 777longhaul »

yycflyguy wrote:
Rockie wrote:The majority of pilots at Air Canada would never have the opportunity for a full pension if mandatory age 60 retirement had remained by virtue of their age when hired. They forget that.

None of the pilots being hired now will be able to retire at age 60 unless their DB pension fund is reinstated.
That is a weak argument now Rockie.

It was a plausible excuse 3 years ago but the "miraculous" turn around in the bond and investment market that eliminated a $3.7 Billion dollar pension shortfall in less than a year shows how the corporation manipulated both the unions and the Federal Government into buying into the "Great Pension Crisis". It's not a Ponzi scheme.

Now the corporation saves on age 60+pilots delaying their pension, New Hire DC program, exorbitant penalties on those who do want out early (or in some cases, wanting out at 60 without the YOS) and the missed opportunity by the pilots to realize some of those savings in the form of salary improvements to pay into a DC program. Executive bonuses will be in excess of what a New Hire can expect from their DC plan.
========================================end

yycflyguy

acpa blew it.

You are totally correct, when you state that AC manipulated the union (acpa) and the Federal Government about the pension and other issues.

acpa lost over 300 million in savings, on the age 60 rule change, that could have been applied to the entire contract issue. It would have helped the junior, and mid level pilots in many many ways.

Do not forget, it is only acpa, at AC, that is refusing to accept the age 60 rule, prior to the Federal Governments rule change. ALL the other unions at AC accepted the age issue, and took back anyone who wanted to return to work at AC, ONLY acpa has fought it, and still is. Why would that be? Does acpa, and its lawyers, know, that everyone else was wrong?

The Federal Government, finally followed what all the Provincial Governments did a long time ago, they abolished the age discrimination issue, at the Federal Level. They abolished it, because it was discriminatory. So.....the only way to apply an age discriminatory enforcement, back then, was to qualify for a BFOR, and establish the Normal Age of Retirement. If....you could not qualify for the BFOR, and NAR, then you could not discriminate against anyone, group, etc. But they did, and now the courts will decide if that was legal.
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SilvrSurfr
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by SilvrSurfr »

777longhaul wrote:
YOU are correct when you say, "Retiring is a part of life." And only the pilot, should decide when she/he is ready, they have a choice, now, and it is a good thing for everyone.
777,

I believe at this point we have all heard the argument that this is about rights, and choice. Currently we have pilots staying past 60, and as you suggest may have pilots over 60 return to the list. So be it, but please spare us all the assertion that it's "a good thing for everyone". You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and you have a right to fight what you believe is injustice against you. I also fully realise that it may be good for you and others who have now reached the top of the ladder. However, your "extended" stay there is costing those below you a significant amount. I don't mean this to be argumentative or disrespectful, it is simply my opinion. We will all have to accept the judgement of those hearing the case, so be it. I'm just tired of hearing how good this is for me, when the evidence clearly shows the opposite.

Silver Surfer
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Transonic
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Transonic »

In my humble opinion, the best and easiest solution is to abolish seniority based schedule bidding and progress to socialized bidding. You will not have this “problem” if the most senior captain works the same schedule as the most junior FO. The current system has made it too sweet to leave if given the choice. Further, it will be less attractive for the former retirees to return thus mitigating the severity of the possible damages to be paid by AC/ACPA.
The lifestyle component will very much be alive in the ability to bid different aircraft types via seniority. Perhaps the recent experience with Rouge will sway the junior vote.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Yes blowing up the current top-heavy seniority system would make it a lot less attractive for those "contemplating" a return if they are allowed to....

Don't you just love the statements about how all the other unions have accepted "it" an d moved on....

Nice try but you're comparing apples and tunafish...

None of those other unions have pays scales tied to their specific work....they fight over their shift schedules and that's about it....once they reach their 12 year (or whatever it is) pay scale...

flight attendants, customer service, airports, rampies, flt dxers, all get paid the same once they max out their pay scales...so they only fight over schedules....

So it's no wonder they don't care about over 65 workers.
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MackTheKnife
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by MackTheKnife »

Transonic wrote:In my humble opinion, the best and easiest solution is to abolish seniority based schedule bidding and progress to socialized bidding. You will not have this “problem” if the most senior captain works the same schedule as the most junior FO. The current system has made it too sweet to leave if given the choice. Further, it will be less attractive for the former retirees to return thus mitigating the severity of the possible damages to be paid by AC/ACPA.
The lifestyle component will very much be alive in the ability to bid different aircraft types via seniority. Perhaps the recent experience with Rouge will sway the junior vote.
First you blow up the contract with FOS, then you trash the pension with defined contribution, literally stomp on wages via Rouge and now the only thing left to throw away are the few gems of working conditions left that seniority allows. .????

When are you going to learn that cutting off your nose to spite your face doesn't work?
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Rockie »

SilvrSurfr wrote: However, your "extended" stay there is costing those below you a significant amount.
How do you figure that? While the trip to the top may take a little longer everybody will still eventually get there and spend as much time at the top as they would have if this change had not occurred. They will be able to earn good employment income for a longer period of time (more money) and for most pilots they will be able to contribute longer to the pension fund resulting in increased retirement income.

Rather than costing anybody anything it is giving everybody the opportunity to earn more over the course of their career and most the ability to earn more after they retire. We also have the ability to even the income earning out to make it more equitable for those at the bottom which we should be doing anyway now that the DB is gone for all new hires.

If you earn less it's because you choose to by retiring before you need to.
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by bluemic »

Question for Raymond.

Does the recent dissolution of AC's law firm - Heenan Blaikie - have any effect on the current FP60 legal proceedings? Or do the lawyers for AC just continue on under the letterhead of whatever new firm they've snuggled up to?

mic
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Raymond Hall
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Raymond Hall »

bluemic wrote:Does the recent dissolution of AC's law firm - Heenan Blaikie - have any effect on the current FP60 legal proceedings?
You and I and everyone else is entitled to choose whoever we wish to represent us in our legal proceedings. The name on the shingle is irrelevant to the underlying causes of action. I have no doubt that Air Canada will have no problem obtaining excellent representation from the same or other lawyers, regardless of the fate of HB. They also have the ability to use their in-house counsel. In fact, the current head of their Employment Law section appeared at the Tribunal on behalf of Air Canada on days when outside counsel had a scheduling conflict; he is presently the President of the Canadian Bar Association.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Stu Pidasso »

I find it sad the number of our Retirees who are under the delusion that they are returning. Who gets to return, only the signatories to the FP60 claim or any Pilot under 71 years of age?

If it is any Pilot who was "force retired" (gotta luv that line) in the last 10 years, how many is that? I don't have the data handy, but for argument sake let's say 800 - 1000.

The resulting training and downbid would cripple the corporation. You (slim chance) may see some token compensation, but I wouldn't rush out to re-write the ATP exams any time soon.
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777longhaul
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by 777longhaul »

Stu
Do yourself, and others a favor, read the guidelines that have been posted here, and on other forums, and is available in the CHRC and CHRT publications, and numerous other official government sites.

A person, who is discriminated against, as per the LEGAL guidelines, has ONE YEAR to file an application with the CHRC, FROM the date that they were discriminated against.

The CHRC decides.....if the case has any traction on numerous tests, and then says yes or no to the application. From there, it goes to the CHRT and so on.

I doubt, you are an AC pilot. You would know this very important rule.

Your statements are totally bs.

Look at the FP60 website, or the Federal Government websites and get informed. Right now, there are just over 200 pilots who have applied, and been accepted by the CHRC. Over 60% of that group, are now over 65 years of age. Due the math, the re-instatement numbers are low, if.....there is any re-instatement, who knows. It will drag on and on in court, and the issue will someday, be decided by the courts.

Have a look around you, West Jet, Jazz both have abolished the age 60 rule, a long time ago, they seem to be doing very well. Other airlines around the world, have done it also.
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Have a look around you, West Jet, Jazz both have abolished the age 60 rule, a long time ago, they seem to be doing very well. Other airlines around the world, have done it also

Nobody is coming back longhaul - rules change, goal posts move, simply a fact of life. At the above mentioned Airlines, did anyone come back from "Forced Retirement" for a victory lap?

Not to the best of my knowledge.

We too are bumbling along since the age change, although it has severely hurt many Pilots long term planning. Namely the loss of the ability to retire at 60 without 25 years of service.

My G.A.F.F. has diminished to zero on this issue longhaul. I had one look at your beloved website years ago and had a difficult time controlling my gag reflex.

Looking at individuals that were Widebody Captains in their thirties.
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Dockjock
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Dockjock »

Raymond Hall if I understand you correctly, you are arguing that the current no age limit for AC pilots is only a partial victory. You want to go back to the beginning and recalculate what the normal age would have been, excluding AC pilots who were contractually required to retire at 60. So "normal" but not including AC pilots, who were forced, because of a discriminatory contract, into being not normal. AC pilots were not normal from 1978-2012, by that criteria.

During that period, did AC pilots earn normal or not normal pay rates, ie. were they paid above, at, or below the industry average? Is it possible that they actually earned the highest wages in the country, on average, in that period? Would you say that over that period, and every period, that the pilot retirement age, WAWCON, and pension plan are linked- influenced by each other in innumerable ways, representative of the trade offs inherent in dozens of negotiations large and small, spanning over several decades- or did they each spawn independently?
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Fanblade »

Rockie wrote:
SilvrSurfr wrote: However, your "extended" stay there is costing those below you a significant amount.
How do you figure that? While the trip to the top may take a little longer everybody will still eventually get there and spend as much time at the top as they would have if this change had not occurred. They will be able to earn good employment income for a longer period of time (more money) and for most pilots they will be able to contribute longer to the pension fund resulting in increased retirement income.

Rather than costing anybody anything it is giving everybody the opportunity to earn more over the course of their career and most the ability to earn more after they retire. We also have the ability to even the income earning out to make it more equitable for those at the bottom which we should be doing anyway now that the DB is gone for all new hires.

If you earn less it's because you choose to by retiring before you need to.
Rockie,

Opinions are fair game but you need to keep it factual. What you have stated above about career earnings is completely false. It allows people to work longer but not nessisarily make more.

For illustrative purposes only.

Let's say there was this chipmunk company. They paid 1 nut in level one. Two nuts in level 2, Three nuts in level 3 and so on until level 10. The career nut earnings for the average chipmunk was 55 nuts. After level 10 the chipmunks retired and continued to collect 5 nuts per year. The average chipmunk ( 20 years) made 105 nuts in a life time.

One day a squirrel broke into the nut storage and made off with half the stored nuts for pensioners. As a result the retirement age needed to be changed to 15.

As a result.

The level 1 chipmunks remained at level 1 for 6 years before proceeding to level 2. After 10 years they had made 20 nuts. After 15 years of work 60 nuts. After 5 years of retirement they had received 85 nuts in a lifetime. A 20% reduction in life time nuts for 5 extra years of work.

The level 5 chipmunks remained at level 5 for six years before proceeding to level 6. After 10 years they had made 40 nuts. After 15 years of work 80 nuts. After 5 years of retirement they had received 105 nuts in a lifetime. These chipmunks worked 5 years longer for for the same life time nuts.

The level 10 chipmunks remained at level 10 for five more years before retiring. After 10 years they had made 85 nuts. After 15 years of work 135 nuts. After 5 years of retirement 160 nuts.

So what happened and why? The pool of nuts being distributed remained stagnent. The only thing that took place was redistribution of the nuts.

What happens to the new hire chipmunk after retirement resumes? He moves up a level every year and a half now since everyone works 15 years rather than 10. After 15 years of work he will earn 67.5 nuts. After 5 years of retirement 92.5 life time nuts.

So why did the new hire chipmunks life time nuts also decrease? Delayed career nut earnings.

So who really benefits beside the squirl? Only the chipmunks at the top. Everyone else will work longer for the same or less nuts over a lifetime. Moreover the change is permanent. All chipmunks from here on out will work longer for less over a lifetime.

This is reality. Making claims to the contrary only exemplifies a lack of the financial understanding of the change.
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote:
Rockie,

Opinions are fair game but you need to keep it factual. What you have stated above about career earnings is completely false. It allows people to work longer but not nessisarily make more.

For illustrative purposes only.

Let's say there was this chipmunk company. They paid 1 nut in level one. Two nuts in level 2, Three nuts in level 3 and so on until level 10. The career nut earnings for the average chipmunk was 55 nuts. After level 10 the chipmunks retired and continued to collect 5 nuts per year. The average chipmunk ( 20 years) made 105 nuts in a life time.

One day a squirrel broke into the nut storage and made off with half the stored nuts for pensioners. As a result the retirement age needed to be changed to 15.

As a result.

The level 1 chipmunks remained at level 1 for 6 years before proceeding to level 2. After 10 years they had made 20 nuts. After 15 years of work 60 nuts. After 5 years of retirement they had received 85 nuts in a lifetime. A 20% reduction in life time nuts for 5 extra years of work.

The level 5 chipmunks remained at level 5 for six years before proceeding to level 6. After 10 years they had made 40 nuts. After 15 years of work 80 nuts. After 5 years of retirement they had received 105 nuts in a lifetime. These chipmunks worked 5 years longer for for the same life time nuts.

The level 10 chipmunks remained at level 10 for five more years before retiring. After 10 years they had made 85 nuts. After 15 years of work 135 nuts. After 5 years of retirement 160 nuts.

So what happened and why? The pool of nuts being distributed remained stagnent. The only thing that took place was redistribution of the nuts.

What happens to the new hire chipmunk after retirement resumes? He moves up a level every year and a half now since everyone works 15 years rather than 10. After 15 years of work he will earn 67.5 nuts. After 5 years of retirement 92.5 life time nuts.

So why did the new hire chipmunks life time nuts also decrease? Delayed career nut earnings.

So who really benefits beside the squirl? Only the chipmunks at the top. Everyone else will work longer for the same or less nuts over a lifetime. Moreover the change is permanent. All chipmunks from here on out will work longer for less over a lifetime.

This is reality. Making claims to the contrary only exemplifies a lack of the financial understanding of the change.
If you believe that you are in the majority amongst the active members of your bargaining unit, then there is nothing stopping you from advocating a change in your pay system that mitigates your illustrated example. However, whatever you propose cannot be based on age such that it contravenes the revised law of the land.

There are lots of examples of non-equipment based pay out there in the industry if you look.

Good luck.
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Dockjock
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Dockjock »

That nut example is awesome and mostly correct. However the time for that argument is long past, and we are currently in year 11, so to speak, whereby the top chipmunks are collecting their first bonus year of nuts while everyone else hangs out in their former position for a while longer. Not that I'm happy about it, but the reality is this is the new normal; age discrimination is illegal and the contract is now in compliance.
However, for some squirrels that's not nearly good enough. The poor, downtrodden squirrels who missed the cutoff want to come back and grab their bonus nuts too, or preferably, just have them shipped direct. Either way, I'm sure, is fine by them. The reality they they, in fact, already received their nuts spread out throughout their careers is lost. They've eaten those nuts; never even realized how good they were. They weren't informed that the extra nuts they got 10, 15, 20 years ago, wouldn't have actually been received had not the former year 10 squirrels taken retirement when they did.
Such is life, I guess.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Raymond Hall »

Dockjock wrote:Raymond Hall if I understand you correctly, you are arguing that the current no age limit for AC pilots is only a partial victory.
There is no "victory" that I see. I and the 200+ others who have financed this litigation against both the employer and the union are now no better off than we were on the day we were forced out, save for the cards in our hands. Not so for those who financed the union's legal fight via increased union dues, in order to delay the inevitable. They may consider that a victory, but that has to be viewed in context--the ball game isn't over yet. We are in the bottom of the 8th inning, the bases are loaded and there is a huge one-sided wager riding on the final score. If we lose, we simply lose a valiant fight and the status quo remains unchanged. If those who oppose this lose...well, that is an entirely different story. The chickens will indeed come home to roost.

I find it amusing that many refuse to inculcate into their psyches various facts. On the previous page I pointed out that mandatory retirement in Canada and at Air Canada was never guaranteed--that income expectations based upon continued forced retirements were unfounded. There was no "contract" that pilots accepted, implied or otherwise, on being hired, that required them to retire at age 60, because the future retirements and the corresponding income expectations were always conditional on satisfying the requirements of the narrow exemption in the legislation that permitted mandatory retirement at the "normal age of retirement for individuals performing similar work."

Sometime between the year 1957, when mandatory retirement was introduced for Air Canada pilots unilaterally by the employer, not by agreement with the pilots, and the year 2005 when the majority of these complaints started pouring in, the "normal age" moved off age 60. That is a fact. So at some point, age 60 was then the exception, not the norm, and termination of employment on the basis of age contravened the law. Those terminated on the basis of a statutory provision that didn't apply then gained the legal right to object to the discriminatory practice that was improperly imposed upon them, and to seek redress. There is no magic to that.

Much as many would like to believe that the issue here should be focused on income distribution, career expectations and the like--it isn't. There was never any guarantee to any expectation, especially in an industry as volatile as the airline industry. It's about law, pure and simple--the law of discrimination on the basis of age, and ultimately the law of liability and the law of remedy.

That is the message that I have been relentlessly putting forward since 2006. The patent irony of all this is that the employer recently described in its financial statements some remarkable numbers posted as gains from the repeal of mandatory retirement--gains that could have been shared and used to offset any adverse consequences of the change, per my suggestions from 2006 through 2012. Lost. They were never seriously considered because emotion triumphed over logic and politics triumphed over reason.

But even more remarkable is the fact that the message about the underlying issue is apparently still falling on deaf ears.
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Rockie »

Fanblade wrote:Let's say there was this chipmunk company.
Your chipmunks will get just as much time at the top as they would have before the change. They will also get to spend more time working for a salary that is higher than they will get for a pension, and for most their pension will be higher too thanks to more time contributing.

Lots more nuts for your chipmunks if they choose to stick around to collect them.

Your logic is false.
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Fanblade »

Rockie wrote:
Fanblade wrote:Let's say there was this chipmunk company.
Your chipmunks will get just as much time at the top as they would have before the change. They will also get to spend more time working for a salary that is higher than they will get for a pension, and for most their pension will be higher too thanks to more time contributing.

Lots more nuts for your chipmunks if they choose to stick around to collect them.

Your logic is false.
Rockie,

The post 60 debate aside, because I have no desire to enter that debate. Its done.

My response to you was simply triggered because you are posting claims that mathematically are false.

Yes my analogy is simplistic. It was meant that way. And yes there will always be exceptions. Hired later in life comes to mind.

Denial is your best defense? Isn't that what you have accused your adversaries of?

Anyway post 60 is here to stay. With it comes consequences. We can do things to mitigate the consequences, or not. I would agree with Raymond that its too late. I would respond to Rudder. What do you do with those just about to reach higher paying jobs? People who have spent a couple of decades waiting for those jobs? Unless the pool of money increases any solution just becomes a different form of redistribution. Without a larger pool of money someone will always win and someone will always lose.

I think it is simply life. No one ever claimed it to be fair.

But no one wants to hear pie in the sky claims of gibberish.
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote: I would respond to Rudder. What do you do with those just about to reach higher paying jobs? People who have spent a couple of decades waiting for those jobs? Unless the pool of money increases any solution just becomes a different form of redistribution. Without a larger pool of money someone will always win and someone will always lose.

I think it is simply life. No one ever claimed it to be fair.

But no one wants to hear pie in the sky claims of gibberish.
Can't fix every perceived shortfall by revisiting the pay grid. But the choice as to how pay scales are set is in large part an edict to the MEC/Negotiating Committee from the bargaining unit. There is nothing stopping you from considering narrowing the gap between NB and WB Capt or the gap between Capt/FO/RP.

Your group makes its own decisions. If it is zero sum I would not see the employer having much resistance. May even lower training expense.
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by duranium »

Dockjock wrote:That nut example is awesome and mostly correct.
Sorry but not correct. AC did not break in and/or remove anything from your pensions. What they did was NOT contribute what they should have. Now, the pensions are solvent with what was stated recently.

So why all the whining. You should be gratefull the interest rates have picked up and erased the deficit. It appears you people are NEVER happy and you are and will always be looking for a reason to bitch and complain. With the economy barely grinding along in second gear, you cannot even be grateful to be able to live a better than decent life. More primadonnas amongts your ranks than previously thought. Give us a break.
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Rockie »

Fanblade wrote:My response to you was simply triggered because you are posting claims that mathematically are false.
If a pilot works their way through the same pay scales ending up at the same level on the seniority list but with more years service they must therefore earn more money over the course of their working career.

How is that mathematically false? How is it possible to work more years through the very same pay scales and earn less total money? Sounds like ACPA logic successfully trying to fool a bunch of pilots into supporting their agenda.
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TheStig
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by TheStig »

Rockie wrote:
Fanblade wrote:My response to you was simply triggered because you are posting claims that mathematically are false.
If a pilot works their way through the same pay scales ending up at the same level on the seniority list but with more years service they must therefore earn more money over the course of their working career.
Have you ever considered that the vast majority of pilot want to retire at sixty? The elimination of mandatory retirement has been a huge victory for a very small number of pilots, the rest of the group now either has to work longer for the same career earnings or retire at 60 after delayed career progression, the group as a whole knows this.
Rockie wrote:How is that mathematically false? How is it possible to work more years through the very same pay scales and earn less total money? Sounds like ACPA logic successfully trying to fool a bunch of pilots into supporting their agenda.
Because you're not considering the fact that we have a 'pay scale' after retirement. Fanblades' illustration exemplifies the fact under the DB plan, with mandatory retirement, once a pilot started working for AC they started earning a paycheque for the rest of their life. Effectively defined benefit for work and retirement. I would expect there to be pressure to flatten the pay tables in the future, as some will suggest this isn't cutting off your nose to spite your face, but rather, adapting to the reality that pilots simply aren't retiring at 60.
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Rockie
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Re: Fed Ct Overturns Tribunal Dismissal of Age 60 Complaints

Post by Rockie »

TheStig wrote:Have you ever considered that the vast majority of pilot want to retire at sixty?
The vast majority of pilots want the pilots above them on the seniority list to retire at sixty or earlier. Our experience since the end of mandatory retirement however is that the vast majority of pilots themselves actually want to continue working past sixty when they reach that magic age. You can't say right now that you'll be any different.
TheStig wrote:Because you're not considering the fact that we have a 'pay scale' after retirement.
Correct. And for most pilots currently here their pay scale after retirement will be improved thanks to extra years contributing if they so desire. Previously they had no such choice.
TheStig wrote:I would expect there to be pressure to flatten the pay tables in the future, as some will suggest this isn't cutting off your nose to spite your face, but rather, adapting to the reality that pilots simply aren't retiring at 60.
An obvious solution that negates the "sky is falling" doom and gloom posited by ACPA and many pilots over the end of mandatory retirement. Of course we have to adapt, the argument all along has been do we adapt before the change and get something for it or be forced to adapt after and get nothing? We chose the latter against all common sense.
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