June 5th, 9:00pm...

[Tom H]

Tonight…

As we sit comfortably socializing or working, meeting with friends or family, maybe just watching TV we should take a moment to thinks about 70 years ago right now.

In the pre dawn hundreds of ships carrying tens of thousand of young soldiers were approaching the coast of Normandy France. In a few short hours thousands will have been killed and thousands more wounded.

D-Day was about to begin…Gold, Juno, Omaha, Sword and Utah beaches were about to become the foothold to take back Europe after nearly a full five years of NAZI occupation. Shortly the sky would be filled with hundreds of aircraft providing support, air cover and strike operations, carrying men to the front lines, sweeping NAZI aircraft from the skies and striking any attempt to bring supplies or reinforcements forward to the NAZI front lines.

The first step in returning Europe to freedom was beginning and that freedom would come from the sacrifices of young soldiers in their teens and twenties for the most part.

How different the world we be today if it was not for those young people…take a moment to remember them and how they changed the world.

It’s the least we can do.


In my highly biased personal opinion

[doorhandle27]

It's amazing how long ago this was now, also amazing that there won't be many left to tell the story soon.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/d-day-landing- ... er-1450286


Interesting pics of the various beaches of Normandy and the local area.

[wan2fly99]

So sad that now all these young kids don't even remember. The don't have not even 1/10th the maturity of those brave young men who gave there lives up people these young want all now generation with there pants down to there knee's.

They were the greatest generation

[davecessna]

So sad that now all these young kids don't even remember. The don't have not even 1/10th the maturity of those brave young men who gave there lives up people these young want all now generation with there pants down to there knee's.

They were the greatest generation

The high schools in my area still make a strong point of teaching the history. My grandfather was a navigator on a Lancaster and was the man who made a point of nurturing my love of aviation. Every damn airshow in the northeast (back when they existed).

Also, I would probably say mid thigh, down by the knees and you are risking the full moon. I'll also remind you that among the ideas our brave ancestors fought was mass stereotyping.

[I_Drive_Planes]

So sad that now all these young kids don't even remember. The don't have not even 1/10th the maturity of those brave young men who gave there lives up people these young want all now generation with there pants down to there knee's.

They were the greatest generation

The idea that today's young people are any different than those of yesterday is complete and utter bunk.



There are plenty of young men and women in uniform, of the same age as those who jumped in to Normandy, serving with honour and distinction all over the world as we speak. Young people everywhere (even those who wear their pants lower than some aged fashionistas would deem appropriate) are accomplishing things, making lives for and educating themselves as they have since the dawn of time. This idea that the youth of today will accomplish less/are weaker/are dumber/are less respectful etc. etc. is an old one (there are even writings from ancient Rome complaining that the next generation of Centurions isn't nearly as tough as the previous generation!) that simply won't die even though it is proved wrong time and time again.

[Tom H]

So sad that now all these young kids don't even remember. The don't have not even 1/10th the maturity of those brave young men who gave there lives up people these young want all now generation with there pants down to there knee's.

They were the greatest generation

The idea that today's young people are any different than those of yesterday is complete and utter bunk.



There are plenty of young men and women in uniform, of the same age as those who jumped in to Normandy, serving with honour and distinction all over the world as we speak. Young people everywhere (even those who wear their pants lower than some aged fashionistas would deem appropriate) are accomplishing things, making lives for and educating themselves as they have since the dawn of time. This idea that the youth of today will accomplish less/are weaker/are dumber/are less respectful etc. etc. is an old one (there are even writings from ancient Rome complaining that the next generation of Centurions isn't nearly as tough as the previous generation!) that simply won't die even though it is proved wrong time and time again.

Speaking specifically to Canada....

But I am going to disagree with you I_Drive_Planes

Yes there are lots of great kids out there, got a couple myself and yes they are not that much different than when I was that age...but they are different and it's mostly OUR fault.

Depending on where you are and what school system the kids are in they know little of Canada's history and scarily they know more about the USA.

The the largest extent we have not taught our history for coming on (2) generations, so how would they know?

We don't speak of those that made tremendous sacrifices, unless it is in a "politically correct" field.

Military/Commercial/Societal we, again to the largest extent, do not promote/celebrate or teach our own history. French revolution...sure, middle ages of Europe...yep.

Vimy Ridge, Battle of Britain, Battle of the Atlantic...rarely mentioned if at all. Insulin...created here, what young person knows?

But it is not the fault of the kids...as a society we don't act like we are proud of our history or our accomplishments, we don't tell them, show them.

As a result they don't know and if you don't know why would you care?

Look at what we as a society spend on Arts, Culture and Multiculturalism, then compare that to what we spend on Museums featuring Canadian History (other than Natural History) both as Municipal, Provincial and Federal Government's as well as publicly through charitable donations.

There is no comparison individually Arts, Culture and Multiculturalism receives many times more than
Canadian History (other than Natural History).

So yes

So sad that now all these young kids don't even remember.

is true for the most part...but don't blame the kids or in most cases the parents.

They were not taught so how could they remember?

How do I know?

(2) kids, one just graduated with a double major in history/poli sci and guess what? Even in the University it wasn't taught. One in elementary school and its is not taught there now or when my oldest was in elementary.

I also deal with a few thousand kids each year in our facility...so I see it first hand daily.

There is a great book "Who killed Canadian History?' by a former history Prof. It pretty much nails it.

So in the end it's Not For Profit Museums that try our best to bring that history to the young people and their parents. On a shoestring, understaffed and struggling.

We do it by spreading the passion, the exciting stories and accomplishments the best we can with what we have to work with, while being envious of the dollars injected into Arts, Culture and Multiculturalism as they are fashionable.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[cncpc]

tha is a great post, Tom

[rt777]

I graduated high school about 4 years ago, and all throughout, learning about Canada's efforts in WWII was always a priority. I still remember learning about D-Day, Vimy Ridge and The Battle of Normandy. I was always interested in history/social studies myself, but many classmates hated it, and could not wrap around their head why they had to learn about the past. They thought it was a waste of time (which is very wrong in my opinion)

Last semester I took a few University classes in Political Science/International Relations, and there was plenty of Canada based history as well. I wouldn't say it's dying, but there is a lot of "the arts, multiculturalism, etc" thrown into todays society as well.

[Tom H]

I graduated high school about 4 years ago, and all throughout, learning about Canada's efforts in WWII was always a priority. I still remember learning about D-Day, Vimy Ridge and The Battle of Normandy. I was always interested in history/social studies myself, but many classmates hated it, and could not wrap around their head why they had to learn about the past. They thought it was a waste of time (which is very wrong in my opinion)

Last semester I took a few University classes in Political Science/International Relations, and there was plenty of Canada based history as well. I wouldn't say it's dying, but there is a lot of "the arts, multiculturalism, etc" thrown into todays society as well.

Always interesting to compare notes...as I said:

Depending on where you are and what school system the kids are in

Some are better than others and some teachers are better than others.

4 years ago my eldest was also in high school and very avid about Canadian History. Took history courses at the 10-20-30 level.

The only time the Wars of the 20th Century were covered was the backside of grade 12 with a little over (1) class week on the First World War and about the same on the Second World War up to date.

and all throughout, learning about Canada's efforts in WWII was always a priority. I still remember learning about D-Day, Vimy Ridge and The Battle of Normandy.

Sounds to me you did the same as my eldest, with a passion for the history and the period, dug it up for themselves and researched it.

University was a similar experience, but with a focus on the classics (my kids choice) it wasn't as frustrating.

I was always interested in history/social studies myself, but many classmates hated it, and could not wrap around their head why they had to learn about the past. They thought it was a waste of time

Not surprised in the least, if you don't start learning about it till in high school you've got other priorities (the fairer sex, work, cars, electronics and games, social (party) activities etc.)

But if your history is presented at a much younger age, as is done with art and music in the school systems, then you have the opportunity to appreciate your history.

The latest generation is now (3) generations away from some of the biggest world changing events of history (Military/Civil/Societal), as a real late boomer my parents were part of it and I learned first hand. Gen X it was their grand parents/aunts/uncles but still first hand (but much more limited) and past that...what is presented is third hand or more. Presented, very often, out of contest with little focus and (from my experience with both a 22 year old through the system and now a 9 year old in the system) in a very limited fashion at a high level, little detail and with other influences thrown in. In the 9 year old's case nothing so far in school.

And yes Canada is the exception...Australia, Britain, most of Europe and the United States celebrate, promote as well as teach their history and you can see it in events such as this past June 6th and on many other occasions.

As I recently discovered the US Marines teach their history to every new recruit to instill passion, loyalty and Esprit d Corp. From what I hear from recently retired RCAF friends/acquaintances as well as those few I know still serving I don't believe we can say the same.

When they tell me of the traditions slipping away (right down to the Squadron level), the Esprit d Corp not what it was in the past I am not the least bit surprised.

A community or society's history is it's foundation. As with a house (or any other building) you want the foundation you are building on to be strong and stable. Because, like a house (or any other building) if the foundation is not strong the community/society, like a house (or any other building) will fall before it's time.

Our history is the foundation we have built on, it is what ties us to the past while allowing us to learn from it and push to the future...it is our identity.

And while I am a supporter of multiculturalism, what happens to the Canadian identity when the cultural of others is put before it? What happens loyalty to Canada, the pride in being Canadian when we lose that identity?

No I don't think we should carry it to the extreme some of our neighbors to the south do, but we can do one heck of a lot better.

In my highly biased personal opinion as a very Proud Canadian

(Sorry for the rant but it is an important topic to me)

[azimuthaviation]

No I don't think we should carry it to the extreme some of our neighbors to the south do

You wont find it mentioned anywhere in the American media but this month is the fifty year anniversary of the Freedom Summer movement. In the south, Mississippi in particular barriers and threats were in place against the black population to suppress voting to the extent that only 8% of blacks were able to vote in federal elections. The most fundamental freedom in American, the right to vote and pick your leaders was deprived to 92% of the black population that made up a third of some of these states. 50 years ago brave students from the north came down there, with no protection, without arms, with no government support, and registered blacks and escorted them to voting booths, much to the ire of the local authority down there. Many of the freedom summer volunteers came back in body bags,with injuries. Martyrs were falling and their murderers were being protected by the law. Yet they stayed there, in constant danger, many were killed and wounded, threatened, beaten, shot. And they stayed. Today voting is far more free in the USA than it was before these people came to Mississippi and forced that right to be defended. So when Americans mention those "brave young people who died for the freedoms we take for granted today" spare a thought for those that died directly for the fight for constitutional freedoms that evil people tried to take away.

Over the course of the ten-week project:
four civil rights workers were killed
at least three Mississippi blacks were murdered because of their support for the civil rights movement
four people were critically wounded
80 Freedom Summer workers were beaten
1,062 people were arrested (out-of-state volunteers and locals)
37 churches were bombed or burned
30 Black homes or businesses were bombed or burned

[Tom H]

No I don't think we should carry it to the extreme some of our neighbors to the south do

You wont find it mentioned anywhere in the American media but this month is the fifty year anniversary of the Freedom Summer movement. In the south, Mississippi in particular barriers and threats were in place against the black population to suppress voting to the extent that only 8% of blacks were able to vote in federal elections. The most fundamental freedom in American, the right to vote and pick your leaders was deprived to 92% of the black population that made up a third of some of these states. 50 years ago brave students from the north came down there, with no protection, without arms, with no government support, and registered blacks and escorted them to voting booths, much to the ire of the local authority down there. Many of the freedom summer volunteers came back in body bags,with injuries. Martyrs were falling and their murderers were being protected by the law. Yet they stayed there, in constant danger, many were killed and wounded, threatened, beaten, shot. And they stayed. Today voting is far more free in the USA than it was before these people came to Mississippi and forced that right to be defended. So when Americans mention those "brave young people who died for the freedoms we take for granted today" spare a thought for those that died directly for the fight for constitutional freedoms that evil people tried to take away.

Over the course of the ten-week project:
four civil rights workers were killed
at least three Mississippi blacks were murdered because of their support for the civil rights movement
four people were critically wounded
80 Freedom Summer workers were beaten
1,062 people were arrested (out-of-state volunteers and locals)
37 churches were bombed or burned
30 Black homes or businesses were bombed or burned

Good post

And it helps make my point...

We must teach all sides of history, the good, the bad and the political, if we are to learn from it and become stronger.

You also help make this point...

No I don't think we should carry it to the extreme some of our neighbors to the south do

While I quite like our neighbor they do have a habit of showing their history is a too jingoistic manner for me, but that said its better than not teaching it at all, as happens in some countries on some surprising topics.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[Canoehead]

Great posts Tom H.

[beechnut]

For my twin boys Graduation gift my wife and I spent them to France ,Belgium and Holland for a 11 days Battlefields Tour.
The Grand parents were very proud of them for wanting to do such a trip. They got to tour Juno, Sword ,Omaha Beaches ,Vimy Ridge and many other place. They still talk about it often.

Beechnut

[Tom H]

For my twin boys Graduation gift my wife and I spent them to France ,Belgium and Holland for a 11 days Battlefields Tour.
The Grand parents were very proud of them for wanting to do such a trip. They got to tour Juno, Sword ,Omaha Beaches ,Vimy Ridge and many other place. They still talk about it often.

Beechnut

Awesome

My eldest is over there now and in addition will be touring England with stops at the WW2 airbases her grandparents (long passed) served at.

Tom H

[200hr Wonder]

My parents are leaving on Wednesday and have tacked on several extra days to visit Normandy and Vimy Ridge specifically. It is certainly on my bucket list to get there.

[azimuthaviation]

We must teach all sides of history

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/06/10 ... known-war/

Normandy, June 1944, is 2.5 years after Germany lost the war in the Battle of Moscow. As historians have made clear, by June 1944 Germany had little left with which to fight. Whatever was left of the German military was on the Eastern Front.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Normandy, June 1944, is 2.5 years after Germany lost the war in the Battle of Moscow. As historians have made clear, by June 1944 Germany had little left with which to fight. Whatever was left of the German military was on the Eastern Front.

What utter bollocks. Not to in any way diminish the Russian contribution, but that claim will doubtless come as a surprise to the 425,000+ combined Allied and German casualties which resulted from the Battle of Normandy. http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/d-day/d-day ... asualities Let alone the tens, probably hundreds, of thousands more lost, on both sides, in the remaining campaigns leading up to V-E day.

Not that I should've expected any reporting accuracy whatsoever from a website run by the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) organization.

[azimuthaviation]

20 million Soviets died in that war, including Stalin's own son KIA on the German front. No nation on earth came close to the contribution that Soviets made against Nazi Germany as they did. If the allies continued to support Russia and did not open the second front in Europe, what would the effect have been? The Red army reaches Berlin three weeks later than they did? The Normandy invasion was timed (perfectly) to meet the Soviets in Germany so that Stalin didnt get all the spoils of the war. The Soviets too were very strategic in their campaign. If they had supported the Polish partisans against Germany, Poland would have been liberated by the partisans. Instead they stood back, waited for Germany to crush the resistance and then came in and made the claim that they "liberated" Warsaw.

[azimuthaviation]

Not that I should've expected any reporting accuracy whatsoever from a website run by the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) organization.

They dont have a dog in this race, so their reporting is a little unbiased. Plus they didnt write that article, they published it, basically retweeted it, the author may or may not even be aware of it. Its posted from that source mainly because they are the only ones who will post it.

The OP was originally talking about education, getting the story told to todays generation. You think any school or newspaper in Canada, where half the country is named after Winston Churchill is going to run an unbiased, critical assessment on Churchill and his motivations?

The way he spoke and acted towards the Africans, Indians, and Arabs in Englands colonies and territories was far worse than Hitlers actions towards the people he conquered, with some exception. The following about Churchill:

In 1919, as Colonial Secretary Churchill advocated the use of chemical weapons on the "uncooperative Arabs" in the puppet state of Iraq. "I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas," he declared. "I am strongly in favor of using poison gas against uncivilized tribes." Some year’s later, gassing human beings to death would make other men infamous.

The young Churchill charged through imperial atrocities, defending each in turn. When concentration camps were built in South Africa, for white Boers, he said they produced "the minimum of suffering". The death toll was almost 28,000, and when at least 115,000 black Africans were likewise swept into British camps, where 14,000 died, he wrote only of his "irritation that Kaffirs should be allowed to fire on white men". Later, he boasted of his experiences there: "That was before war degenerated. It was great fun galloping about."

As an MP he demanded a rolling programme of more conquests, based on his belief that "the Aryan stock is bound to triumph"

"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes…[It] would spread a lively terror."

“I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.

Talking about the triumph of the Aryan race, ruling over lesser grade human beings because they are racially inferior to you, and poison gassing those who opposed you? That describes Hitler and Churchill.

But then again "History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it" -Winston Churchill

Well you may not like the Islamic Republic of Iran, thats fine. But they are as far as I know the only people who had the decency to remove rename anything that had been named in his honour. Sir Winston Churchill street in Tehran, where the British embassy stands, was changed to Bobby Sands street. The British Embassy even took to making a side door as its main entrance so that its address would not be Bobby Sands street.

[YYZSaabGuy]

20 million Soviets died in that war, including Stalin's own son KIA on the German front. No nation on earth came close to the contribution that Soviets made against Nazi Germany as they did. If the allies continued to support Russia and did not open the second front in Europe, what would the effect have been? The Red army reaches Berlin three weeks later than they did? The Normandy invasion was timed (perfectly) to meet the Soviets in Germany so that Stalin didnt get all the spoils of the war.

I don't think it's necessary to diminish the contributions of either side. I also don't think it's appropriate to figure out who has the higher body count, although it's accepted by most military historians that the Russians suffered significant casualties in part because Stalin's purges decimated his officer corps and his procurement left his army under-equipped and under-gunned. It didn't help his body count that he took the 1939 non-aggression pact more seriously than Hitler did, and was caught with his pants down when Hitler invaded Russia in June of 1941.

Finally, I don't mean to turn a thread which originated as a serious D-Day commemoration into a pissing contest about strategic objectives and the beginning of the Cold War (although that might be a fun debate for another time). My point was simply that, contrary to what the IRIB would have you believe, the Germans were very obviously far from being a spent force by the time of the Normandy invasion.

[iflyforpie]

The Western contribution to the War after the Battles of Moscow and Stalingrad were considerable. The supplying of the USSR with Lend-Lease materiel via the North Cape probably saved nearly as many Soviet soldiers as those who died in the march to Berlin. Then there was the massive bombing campaign against Germany's industry, oil products, and populace... .which also took away thousands of aircraft, as well as heavy guns like the 8.8s which could have been used as field artillery on the Eastern Front.

Then there was the threat of invasion... which took massive amounts of Nazi resources to prepare for as Rommel fortified the Atlantic Wall from Narvik to Biarritz and tied up many divisions of men and armour.

Wait.. Rommel? Wasn't he in Africa? That's right, there was a second front against the Third Reich this whole time... North Africa, Sicily, Italy....

Let's not also forget what caused what caused the massive Soviet casualties. Like how they were right there at the beginning of the war... helping the Germans carve up Poland. Then attacking Finland and getting their 'collective' asses handed to them in the Winter War and the Continuation War in terms of sheer numbers of casualties (around a million just for that part of the war). Then being surprised and attacked their former ally on the longest continuous front of the war... with battlefield commanders having no experience and little regard for the lives of their soldiers. Then there were the massive numbers of Soviet POWs who then died in German POW or labour camps.

The Soviets ended WWII square IMHO... their blood paying for their part in instigating WWII in the first place.... and certainly more than fair after subduing nearly every Eastern European nation for the next 45 years.

[azimuthaviation]

Let's not also forget what caused what caused the massive Soviet casualties. Like how they were right there at the beginning of the war... helping the Germans carve up Poland.

And the Soviets for the most part got to keep what they took from Poland in 1939. The Soviets were not the good guys in that war either, there were no good guys. Just colonialists, fascists, and opportunists. How history rewrote that into the greatest battle between good and evil, I will never understand. Probably a way to justify the cost, absolve themselves for the things they had to do, and as a justification for their actions for the rest of the 20th century. Heck Putin was invoking WW2 and the Nazis just a month ago to defend his actions in Ukraine. Its been long enough, its time to take a more sober look at what happened in the 1940s.

And just for the record, I had many relatives who fought and some who died in WW2 on the side of the allies. Some from Canada and others in Lebanon who were forced to fight in Europe as well.

"At first, we didn’t know who these poor souls were; they walked around like skeletons in ripped striped uniform, and later we found out that these were Jews from all across Europe who were sent to the camps and exterminated only because they were Jewish," he said.

"Of course we did everything we could to help them; sometimes we even gave them, secretly of course, a little food such as bread, potatoes, cheese and sausages," Daoud noted.

Occasionally," Daoud added, "We also managed to sneak them some underwear and socks. We had to pull many tricks, so that the SS officers guarding them won't notice.

"We pitied these poor souls very much. We, the Druze, were especially in pain because the Jews were our neighbors and friends in Palestine," he said.

During their stay in Stalag, Daoud and two of his Druze friends – Hassan Mansur and Fauzi Hasson—decided to escape from the camp.

They hid in the forest, and on the next night crossed the border into Italy, where they were also forced to hide.

"We found a cave in one of the mountains and settled in there," said Daoud. Every night, the three would sneak into desolate farm houses nearby and demand food – often under gun threats with weapons they stole from rangers along the way.

Several months passed, until one day a farm owner told them the Germans withdrew from Italy. The three decided to walk to a nearby city, where they encountered a battalion of the Free French Forces, formed by General Charles de Gaulle.

The French took the three Druze men with them and handed them to British forces.

"When my mother heard I returned, she was so excited, she couldn’t even stand on her two feet, and my father had to put her on a donkey and lead it to me," he said.

Surprisingly, the Druze war hero was ever honored by the British authorities.

Some even stayed with the French army and went on to fight in Dien Ben Phu and even Algeria. Such a waste of life, of resources. Its time to stop glorifying it.

[Tom H]

Its time to stop glorifying it.

Sorry the way I see it you choose to not understand what this is really all about.

All war is evil, it is humanities failure to overcome with intelligence and compassion. Period.

But when war comes there are individual sacrifices, actions and demonstrations of compassion beyond the the individual involved that must be recognized, honoured and remembered.

It's not about the politics, the economics, the corruption that happens...it is about "the people" that choose to stand up and do there best for what they believe is right to make it stop, regardless of individual cost.

There are thousands of heroes never recognized, there are thousands of sacrifices made that were never noted. But to denigrate the actions of those that are recognized misses the point that they represent all those that will never individually be recognized, they are the representatives of all.

We are going to agree to disagree with the direction you are attempting to take this thread...

In my highly biased personal opinion