Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

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timel
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by timel »

AuxBatOn wrote: Like I said, the real problem resides with CIC allowing non-canadian to work in fields that are already saturated with canadian labour. It's not an issue with TC.

The market might be "saturated", but people who choose to immigrate, bring money by getting their pilots licences and some find a job. Many don't succeed and they leave or find a different field. The few that make it out deserve a job like anyone else. The ones I know have strong values for WAWCONs.

What is not right, is companies who bring already trained TFW pilots on a short term period, in order to lower their costs and do unfair competition to well established companies who value the pilots on Canadian market. TC should have never allowed this masquerade. They let it slip and they won't admit it.
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Last edited by timel on Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Again, it is NOT TC's responsibility to regulate the pilot employment market in relation to foreign workers. It's CIC. TC's mandate is make aviation safe and effective.

Many foreign national lower the quality of labour conditions for Canadians. Just look on Montreal's south shore charter companies....

It's not because you decide to come and pay for your training in Canada that you deserve a job in Canada. Canadians reasonably qualified for the job should have first dibs. Not the dude that is willing to work for free because his dad back in Europe has all the money in the world for him to build hours here.

For the record, I don't totally disagree with Gilles' fight. I disagree with how he fights it.
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timel
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by timel »

AuxBatOn wrote:
It's not because you decide to come and pay for your training in Canada that you deserve a job in Canada. Canadians reasonably qualified for the job should have first dibs. Not the dude that is willing to work for free because his dad back in Europe has all the money in the world for him to build hours here.
That is such a cliche. The daddy in Europe sending the cheques. There are few rotten tomatoes, I have to admit.

Who is benefiting from this kind of business? The schools, they go physically in Europe and middle east, sell the dream for the kids to come over, do your licence we will give you a job.

Those same companies who then exchange crap WAWCONs for a visa. Why don't you go have a talk with the owners of this schools, tell them directly what you think of their lies and work morals. For a some places, immigrants are part of the business plan.


What I find ignorant is saying current WAWCON are what they are because of immigrants. That is complete BS.

And yes people who work for free don't deserve a job in this industry, I met some before and I wasn't ashamed to tell them what I though of their work ethics.

Who deserves the job? The most qualified, the one who fits the company values and the one who is willing to work the hardest. It is also business.
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Last edited by timel on Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

timel wrote: Who deserves the job? The canadian that is the most qualified and the one who is willing to work the hardest.
Fixed that for you.

What are my chances of going to Europe an get a flying job?
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by digits_ »

Image

Just some food for thought :mrgreen:

After all, every relevant argument has already been posted in the previous 5 (?) topics about this exact subject...
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timel
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by timel »

AuxBatOn wrote:
timel wrote: Who deserves the job? The canadian that is the most qualified and the one who is willing to work the hardest.
Fixed that for you.

What are my chances of going to Europe an get a flying job?
None. That is why this TFW thing has to be fixed because they are much more protective on their wealthy jobs then we are.

TFW and foreign national, two very different debates IMO, I'll be glad to make an other one on that.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by AuxBatOn »

Same thing. In the end, Canadian jobs are taken by non-Canadians. Result is the exact same.
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Takeoff OK »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Takeoff OK wrote: It would no longer be an issue.
I disagree. You have an issue with non-canadians taking canadian jobs. Whether it's through the FLVC or the Licensing process is irrelevent to the result: they both take jobs they perhaps shouldn't.

Like I said, the real problem resides with CIC allowing non-canadian to work in fields that are already saturated with canadian labour. It's not an issue with TC.
I don't care if you disagree. My issue is with abuse of regulations and standards. These abuses have afforded unwarranted advantages to the parties abusing the regulations and standards. If TC would do their job and actually enforce these things we wouldn't even be discussing this particular branch of the problem. If all the TFWs go and get the f'n TC licences, we will no longer be discussing this particular issue. Thus...drum roll...IT WOULD NO LONGER BE AN ISSUE. Did I clarify my point sufficiently for you?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn, TC is not the innocent by-stander in this battle I am waging against TFW . They have been an active partner in allowing the industry to import TFW pilots, probably under pressure from said industry, even when it involves ignoring or using extremely loose interpretation of the CARs.

You will remember this issue about British airline pilots who were issued a Canadian Airline licence after doing an Instrument Check ride in a simulator to demonstrate the skills requirement. I had posted questions about this, to which you had replied. We finally wrote to the TC Licencing Office in Ottawa to get their version. I must state that when we wrote the email to TC, we did not specify that in late 2003, over 50 British pilots were issued TC ATPLs for working for SkyService, after doing their rides in a simulator. Here is the TC reply. It was from:

Ginette Lacroix
Licensing Specialist / Spécialiste de la délivrance des licences aéronautiques
Licensing Programme Unit / Unité du programme de délivrance des licences
Place de Ville, Tower C - 330 Sparks, Ottawa, ON K1A 0N8
Tel /Tél :( 613) 990- 1039 Fax /Téléc.:(613)990-6215
E-Mail /Courriel: ginette.lacroix@tc.gc.ca

Pour un DEMANDEURS ÉTRANGERS

Les test en vol doivent être fait dans un avion et non un simulateur.
When after receiving this reply, we asked her about the specifics of the 50+ British pilots who all did their ride in a Sim in the fall of 2003. At first she just ignored me. When I wrote a second time, complaining that she had not replied, she forwarded the question to her boss and copied me.
Hi Bo,

Can you look at this email I probably answer him because my signature block is there.


This is who "Bo" is.

Bohdan B Skrynyk
A/Program Manager, Commercial Flight Standards
Telephone : 613-991-5667
Fax : 613-990-6215
E-mail : bohdan.skrynyk@tc.gc.ca
Address : 330 Sparks Street
Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0N5
Canada

Of course, I never heard from "Bo". This last email was in July 2014. Under the Rug! But alive and well thanks to AvCanada.

Mrs Lacroix could have replied that she had made a mistake in her first reply, but after consulting her more knowledgeable colleagues at TC, she was shown that in fact, it was permissible for a foreign licensed pilot to obtain a TC ATPL after doing a ride in a simulator because CAR xx says so in so. But she can't honestly reply such a thing to me because her first reply was the honest and correct one. So she does what all inspectors did with the FLVC issue: She passed the hot potato higher up and if I had pushed it further with "Bo", MR Martin Eley, the DG, would have been the one holding on to it on his own, like he bravely did for the FLVC fiasco.

There are many other issues involving Foreign pilot issues that involve TC. In 2011-2012 Sunwing dry-leased 5 aircraft from Thomson Airlines under CAR 203.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Sunwing-Airlines-(Thomson/Boeing-737-8K5/2103678/L/&sid=89529eff1b83af9ee222259bb068de2f

This is a provision in the CAR that allows a Canadian carrier to dry lease a foreign registered aircraft and to operate it in Canada under foreign registration but under the Canadian Airlines' Operating Certificate. This is to avoid having to de-register and re-register aircraft twice in a short period when the lease is relatively short. This is all legal and in fact Air Transat is right now operating 4 French registered aircraft dry-leased under CAR 203.
But CAR 203 poses certain conditions. One of them is that the crew Operating them must be employees of the Lessee.
Leasing Operations
203.03 (1) No person who is not the registered owner of an aircraft shall operate the aircraft as part of a leasing operation without an authorization issued pursuant to subsection (2) unless

(d) the crew members of the aircraft are employed by the lessee;
https://books.google.ca/books?id=jW-_J_ ... 04&f=false

What is the purpose of that clause ? Evidently to avoid sham wet-leases. Those who wrote the Regulation did not want a Canadian carrier to use CAR 203 to "Dry-Lease" a foreign registered aircraft and then use pilots from the same airline that supplied the foreign aircraft to fly them, which is what a wet-lease is (in part).

Well what did Sunwing do that year ? They contracted a bunch of British pilots who were working for Thomson Airlines to come to Canada to fly the UK registered Thomson Aircraft.

I filed a CAIRS report. Here is the reply I received:
These foreign flight-crew personnel, while employed directly by another company, are under the operational control of and considered to be contract employees of Sunwing or Canjet.
So was CAR 203(1)(d) violated or not ? Would TC's explanation hold water in court ? If any
foreign flight-crew personnel, while employed directly by another company, are under the operational control of and considered to be contract employees of Sunwing
when would CAR 203(1)(d) ever apply to any company ? Why was it even written into the CARs if any pilot is considered a contract employee ?

Those four French Registered aircraft Air Transat now operates were leased from Transavia France. Imagine that at the same time Air Transat had dry-leased these four aircraft, it had also contracted with Transavia France for about 60 of its French pilots to come over to Canada and fly the aircraft ? This would be in contravention of CAR 203(1)(d) even if the French pilots had Canadian ATPLs and Permanent Resident Status in Canada. The pilots, as employees of the Lessor could not be at the same time considered as contract employees of the Lessee so as to satisfy the restriction in CAR 203(1)(d). Yet this is exactly what Sunwing did, with TC's blessing........

I could provide several other examples of TC complicity in helping the airline Industry to hire Foreign pilots right now, right off the top of my head, but you will not read any of it or ignore most of my pointed arguments and reply something futile that justifies all of it, as you have been doing, so I will spare you.......
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn wrote:You still haven't replied to my question:

If those 139 pilots taking advantage of the FLVC came to Canada for 1 week and completed the 3 exams, the flight test in an Aztec, submitted their application for the ATPL and received their ATPL, you would drop your swords and say it's all good now?
A war must be fought on all fronts. This war had issues dealing with many government departments :

CIC who allowed Foreign pilots into Canada on reciprocal visas when the Canadian airlines applying for the reciprocal visas on their behalf sent no Canadian pilots to work overseas for Foreign airlines but sent Wet Leases instead.

ESDC who allowed Canadian employers to use lame, undocumented and unproven reasons for excluding Canadians over TFW pilots. Some employers were bold/stupid enough to come right out and admit to pilots answering help wanted ads, that there were no real jobs available to Canadians but that the ad had just been published to fulfill the TFW requirement to give the job to a foreigner. I received another message from a helicopter pilot just a few days ago who experienced this very situation. There does not seem to be consequences for employers who violate the rules. A couple years ago, Sunwing indicated in its application for 120 TFW that the Canadian pilot group was not represented by a Union. It was a blatant lie. They obtained the LMOs for the 120 TFW anyway......

The CTA concurred with Sunwing a couple years ago when that company stated that they were allowed to Wet-Lease any number of foreign aircraft they desired. Only when the Minister of Transport was bombarded with protests, not only from pilot Unions but from most Canadian Airlines as well, that the Minister issued a directive stating that an airline could not be allowed to wet-lease more than 20% of its Canadian fleet from overseas. Just last month, the OTC waived for Sunwing articel 8.2(2) of the ATR, that states that any Wet-Lease of more than 1 month in duration must be applied for at least 45 days in advance. The OTC approved an application made six days before the arrival of the aircraft. Back in 2012, when airlines and Unions had protested that Sunwing was in the habit of applying for Wet-Leases just days in advance for its Wet Leases and that the CTA was approving them in record time although the article 8.2(2) of the ATR states that the applications be made at least 45 days before the first flight, the CTA relented ruled the following:

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/426-a-2012
[43] Until the Agency provides further clarification on wet lease application requirements, the current approach will be maintained, however, the 45-day advance period will be strictly enforced for any new applications made after the date of this Decision unless the applicant can demonstrate to the Agency that the requirements for a wet lease resulted from an unexpected or unforeseeable situation.
https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/444-a-2014

When the CTA again approved a late application by Sunwing in Dec 2014, and industry and unions protested, here is the reply the CTA sent to those who protested:
With respect to decision 444-A-2014, the Panel which issued the decision is functus officio and the Agency does not comment on a previous decision which speaks for itself.
Meaning "we are under no obligation to look at what we had stated in the past when we make decisions today and mind your own business"

In 2012, Sunwing Wet-Leased 4 aircraft from Czech based Travel Service. This requires an approval by the CTA and a Foreign Carriers's Operating Certificate issued by Transport Canada. Three aircraft arrived with Czech OK-XXX registrations and one, painted like the others, arrived with a Slovak registration. It did not possess a TC issued Operating Certificate. It flew for several days before it was grounded after I sounded the alarm with Transport and Air Transat. It was grounded the same day, remained grounded a few days, a then did a last flight to PUJ before being ferried back to Slovakia.

http://fr.flightaware.com/live/flight/OMTVR

You'd think there be consequences for an Airline in Canada to fly paying passengers on a aircraft not the subject of any Canadian Operating Certificate ? Not for all airlines it seems......

TC for all the issues I already mentions in recent previous posts on this thread......

Then there is one last Agency I must mention: Revenue Canada. When TFW arrive in Canada they must apply for a Social Insurance number and declare Canadian Revenue. They must appear on the payroll and have deductions taken from their pay. Revenue Canada recently decided to label as taxable Benefit the parking space that all Canadian Airline employees receive to park their cars at the airport, but does not seem concerned with taxing any of the TFW pilots on their salaries.

There are many more things I could write about. To think that this TFW issue can be reduced to fighting ESDC on the TFW program is false. When one is under attack on four, five or six fronts, one must fight back on all them or lose the war.

Transport Canada is very much at the center of one of those fronts.
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by aerie »

rxl wrote:bypass qualified Canadian pilots. Great.

It's illegal to ask if someone's a citizen in an interview.


Not hiring a qualified individual because they are an immigrant is:
- Illegal
- Discriminatory
- Just wrong
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

aerie wrote: Not hiring a qualified individual because they are an immigrant is:
- Illegal
- Discriminatory
- Just wrong
100 per cent correct. Whenever I have written "Canadian" in any of my posts, it was for expediency. Canadian or Permanent Resident of Canada is what should have been written in all cases.
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn, I had forgotten another Canadian Agency that is sleeping at the Helm.

Sunwing's pilots' Collective Agreement which is Federally approved, registered and published, states black on white, in very clear terms that when the Company hires Seasonal pilots, these may be hired as Captains only if they are foreigners. Any Canadian seasonal pilot can only be hired as a First Officers.

That is a violation of the Human Rights Act of Canada which prohibit work discrimination based on country of Origin, ethnic origin, religion or sex.

It would not have been any more illegal if the same Collective Agreement has stated that black, Jewish or female pilots cannot be Seasonal Captains, since all these discriminations are prohibited by the same exact text of law.

How can this exist in today's Canada with a Federally approved collective agreement is beyond me ? And no one is doing anything to change this ?
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youflyboyscrackmeup
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by youflyboyscrackmeup »

...must be the same people turning a blind eye to a certain French only rule ;)
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by photofly »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
aerie wrote: Not hiring a qualified individual because they are an immigrant is:
- Illegal
- Discriminatory
- Just wrong
100 per cent correct. Whenever I have written "Canadian" in any of my posts, it was for expediency. Canadian or Permanent Resident of Canada is what should have been written in all cases.
Curiously, the CARs adopt the definition of "Canadian" from 55(1) of the Canada Transportation Act, which says:
“Canadian” means a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act...
So I think Giles can adopt that definition too, without dishonour.
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Re: Foreign Licence validations in Canada and elsewhere

Post by aerie »

photofly wrote:Curiously, the CARs adopt the definition of "Canadian" from 55(1) of the Canada Transportation Act, which says:
“Canadian” means a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act...
So I think Giles can adopt that definition too, without dishonour.
Yes, I apologize for any confusion Gilles, my comment was not directed towards you, more as a general reminder for some other posters.
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