Top salary at Jazz is under $120/hr. No captains at AC make under $120/hr. Who do you work for by the way since you have so much to say?forcedwhore wrote:Can you imagine the tension in the cockpit when the skipper is making less then the Jazz New hire....as if there isn't enough dividers at AC as it is. Jazz new hires are going to be outcast, and rightfully so.
Air Canada Pool
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DEI = Didn’t Earn It
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So basically now the only way in to AC is through Jazz??? Or to hope to be one of the 20%?
This is HORRIBLE news for guys like me who have been busting their butt for a chance to work there.
This is HORRIBLE news for guys like me who have been busting their butt for a chance to work there.

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Jack In The Box wrote:So basically now the only way in to AC is through Jazz??? Or to hope to be one of the 20%?
This is HORRIBLE news for guys like me who have been busting their butt for a chance to work there.
Its a tough pill for all of us in this boat for sure... Keep your chin up, there is more to life than Big Red. You never know, maybe you'll be the 20%.
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There was a period during the previous decade when the rejection rate for Jazz applicants at AC was 80% or higher (while at other times such as during the 1990's the acceptance rate was almost 100%). It made no sense considering the relative experience levels at the time. That is partly why Jazz has accumulated such a highly tenured pilot work force, including FO's. Now the AC hiring ratio will be 80%.
Seems like this agreement will balance out a past policy anomaly.
Seems like this agreement will balance out a past policy anomaly.
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Last edited by arcadia on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jazz is gearing up to hire 20 pilots per month in 2015 so the anticipated attrition rate to AC, WJ, Transat, Sunwing, Cargojet, and elsewhere must be that or more.
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Heard from a management type last week, maybe 2 more courses in 2015. New 2015 seniority list is out too... 40 whole numbers... Seems to match that forecast for 2 courses.
I thought we were getting 5 321s? Or was it 5 to mainline, 5 to rogue?arcadia wrote:AC is bringing on 10 321's this spring and not losing the embraers until the fall.
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Last edited by arcadia on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Theory time!
The first GS will be all pool. I personally don't think that the PML will pass tomorrow night, the feeling on the ground is that there just aren't 49% of us that want to give up our lifestyles and DB pensions.
Maybe AC comes back with a more realistic number in time for Jazz to start filling up GS this spring, who knows, this wouldn't be the first time we have poked Calin in the eye and all previous times have hurt us far more than him.
The first GS will be all pool. I personally don't think that the PML will pass tomorrow night, the feeling on the ground is that there just aren't 49% of us that want to give up our lifestyles and DB pensions.
Maybe AC comes back with a more realistic number in time for Jazz to start filling up GS this spring, who knows, this wouldn't be the first time we have poked Calin in the eye and all previous times have hurt us far more than him.
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Let's clarify something here. Between this page and the Jazz forum, we're getting dozens of new aircraft yesterday, and the hiring of thousands of pilots is imminent.
Here's the deal: There is evidence of maybe 1 (one) newish A320, which may replace an existing aircraft for all we know. The company is looking at more options but there are very few out there to be found. The seniority list budged by only 42 this year, which was foreseen by equipment bids up to 12 months ago. Retirements won't become mandatory again until January 1, 2018. Yes, three more years! The over inflated jazz forum hiring numbers would only exist if AC exercised every single 787 and 737 option and purchase right. That's 61 aircraft that don't exist yet, and may never. Even if AC takes half of them, the total fin count is still pretty flat. The pilot training department only forecasts one, maybe two courses all year this year.
So enough with the "I heard from a guy, who heard from a guy, who heard from Calin's sister.." nonsense. Anyone patient enough for some factual info will wait for the equipment bid early in Feb.
Here's the deal: There is evidence of maybe 1 (one) newish A320, which may replace an existing aircraft for all we know. The company is looking at more options but there are very few out there to be found. The seniority list budged by only 42 this year, which was foreseen by equipment bids up to 12 months ago. Retirements won't become mandatory again until January 1, 2018. Yes, three more years! The over inflated jazz forum hiring numbers would only exist if AC exercised every single 787 and 737 option and purchase right. That's 61 aircraft that don't exist yet, and may never. Even if AC takes half of them, the total fin count is still pretty flat. The pilot training department only forecasts one, maybe two courses all year this year.
So enough with the "I heard from a guy, who heard from a guy, who heard from Calin's sister.." nonsense. Anyone patient enough for some factual info will wait for the equipment bid early in Feb.
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There may or may not be growth. Cheap oil and low interest rates will stimulate discretionary spending and may stimulate travel demand creating incremental and cost effective revenue opportunities for AC.
Regardless, AC saves money in the revised CPA with every Jazz pilot that is hired. My guess is that the hiring and training machine will spool up at AC irrespective of the growth factor if not by hundreds then at least by dozens. The retirement schedule is real and average age of retirement is not 65 it is closer to 62.5
There more factors in play for AC than before if the Jazz TA and CHR CPA are implemented.
Regardless, AC saves money in the revised CPA with every Jazz pilot that is hired. My guess is that the hiring and training machine will spool up at AC irrespective of the growth factor if not by hundreds then at least by dozens. The retirement schedule is real and average age of retirement is not 65 it is closer to 62.5
There more factors in play for AC than before if the Jazz TA and CHR CPA are implemented.
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Air Canada has 2 A320s going online soon. C-FGJI (Fin 241?) is in Montreal after delivery from Dresden and C-FGKH is in Europe awaiting delivery. Both are ex Thomas Cook aircraft built in 2002. No idea if anything is leaving the fleet.
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Rudder,rudder wrote:The retirement schedule is real and average age of retirement is not 65 it is closer to 62.5.
I agree the retirement schedule is real. Curious as to where you came up with 62.5 as the expected average age of retirement though.
That age seems low based on the retirement forecast we see on Equipment bids every two months. For that number to be accurate we would need to see a serious uptick in retirements right now.
63.5ish looks more reasonable from what I have seen. With that said there is a new bid due out shortly. If it shows a sudden uptick in retirements 62.5 ish could be accurate.
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Re: Air Canada Pool
Email to the pool yesterday was looking for updated resumes. She said she hopes to have more info as to how the PMA is going to affect pool candidates either Friday or early next week.
Either way, the vote last night was definitely bad news for us in the pool, albeit not an unexpected result. To put things in prospective, if you are around 60th in the pool, you now wont't be hired until AC hires at least 300 pilots, keeping in mind only 70-80 have been hired in the past 18 months.
Even worse news for non-pool non-Jazz pilots who want to apply, unless something changes don't expect the application window to open for a LONG time, several years unless I'm missing something.
I don't hold anything against Jazz pilots for voting for the deal, I would have done the same. They are very well trained and like many have pointed out on here they have given years of service to AC in some form, and probably deserve this chance.
Sucks for us who have had lives on hold for years now after being told we would be hired in 6 months, and probably will be on hold for more years to come. I'll pass along an update from AC when they send it in the next few days.
Either way, the vote last night was definitely bad news for us in the pool, albeit not an unexpected result. To put things in prospective, if you are around 60th in the pool, you now wont't be hired until AC hires at least 300 pilots, keeping in mind only 70-80 have been hired in the past 18 months.
Even worse news for non-pool non-Jazz pilots who want to apply, unless something changes don't expect the application window to open for a LONG time, several years unless I'm missing something.
I don't hold anything against Jazz pilots for voting for the deal, I would have done the same. They are very well trained and like many have pointed out on here they have given years of service to AC in some form, and probably deserve this chance.
Sucks for us who have had lives on hold for years now after being told we would be hired in 6 months, and probably will be on hold for more years to come. I'll pass along an update from AC when they send it in the next few days.
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As an Acpa member, I'm truly saddened that Poolies are getting the shaft. While I understand the corporations motivation for this deal, I question the fairness of leaving you guys out in the cold. Hopefully the news will have some silver lining for you guys.
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Ah Yeah and Poolies, while I understand some will be upset with this new reality, maybe a little background on some of the Flowies.
My personal story and is by no means unique, as I've talked with several other Jazz pilots with a very similar story! I've been flying since 1995 and it took 12 years of bush, northern/artic flying before the opportunity to fly at Jazz presented itself to me. On day 3 of my first week at Jazz, I received an email from AC HR inviting me to attend the interview with 3 or 4 dates to choose from. I replied to that email, that I was currently at Jazz for 3 days and wondered if that changed anything, to which the response was, absolutely that changes everything! I was told to update my application with my Jazz start date and I would be called on in order of seniority, as LOU 18(I believe) was in effect. That call never came and 2 years later the LOU was dissolved when ACE divested the remainder of it's Chorus shares.
Fast forward, thinking that ship had sailed and seniority and pay cut was too much to stomach, they rewarded my 6 years of service by taking away my C2 pass travel and any chance of retirement passes, talk about moving the goal post. Now AC in an effort to reduce the cost of a very lucrative CPA, which by design was so rich to attract investors, to bail out the mother ship, they've given a small token of appreciation to the Jazz pilots. No seniority, no pass YOS, no vacation, just 4 years of pay protection to bridge the gap until off the AC salary and we get to be a new hire, with all that entails. Don't get me wrong, this is actually what I'd hoped for, some way to get to AC without putting my marriage and mortgage at risk. I have asked my family too many times to tighten their belts, that I feared one more time would have a price I was not willing to pay, so I had planned on making a career at Jazz, now I have a possibility of moving without a pay cut, assuming I pass the interview process.
They've made it so risky to stay at Jazz that at least 625 Jazz pilots decide to give everything up to start over! I really didn't think we would get the required numbers but I guess we all saw the writing on the wall. If we rejected this deal, our future or lack thereof was all but written, now the company will be cost competitive and in 10 years the number of current Jazz pilots still at Jazz will be somewhere in the low 200s, just speculating but that appeared to be the goal.
Given this new deal, there is likely a future beyond 2025 because we can now compete with the likes of GGN and SKV, sickening but that's the reality.
While I feel for the poolies, you'll have to excuse me if I don't shed any tears for them, this industry is many things, fair is NOT one of them!
My personal story and is by no means unique, as I've talked with several other Jazz pilots with a very similar story! I've been flying since 1995 and it took 12 years of bush, northern/artic flying before the opportunity to fly at Jazz presented itself to me. On day 3 of my first week at Jazz, I received an email from AC HR inviting me to attend the interview with 3 or 4 dates to choose from. I replied to that email, that I was currently at Jazz for 3 days and wondered if that changed anything, to which the response was, absolutely that changes everything! I was told to update my application with my Jazz start date and I would be called on in order of seniority, as LOU 18(I believe) was in effect. That call never came and 2 years later the LOU was dissolved when ACE divested the remainder of it's Chorus shares.
Fast forward, thinking that ship had sailed and seniority and pay cut was too much to stomach, they rewarded my 6 years of service by taking away my C2 pass travel and any chance of retirement passes, talk about moving the goal post. Now AC in an effort to reduce the cost of a very lucrative CPA, which by design was so rich to attract investors, to bail out the mother ship, they've given a small token of appreciation to the Jazz pilots. No seniority, no pass YOS, no vacation, just 4 years of pay protection to bridge the gap until off the AC salary and we get to be a new hire, with all that entails. Don't get me wrong, this is actually what I'd hoped for, some way to get to AC without putting my marriage and mortgage at risk. I have asked my family too many times to tighten their belts, that I feared one more time would have a price I was not willing to pay, so I had planned on making a career at Jazz, now I have a possibility of moving without a pay cut, assuming I pass the interview process.
They've made it so risky to stay at Jazz that at least 625 Jazz pilots decide to give everything up to start over! I really didn't think we would get the required numbers but I guess we all saw the writing on the wall. If we rejected this deal, our future or lack thereof was all but written, now the company will be cost competitive and in 10 years the number of current Jazz pilots still at Jazz will be somewhere in the low 200s, just speculating but that appeared to be the goal.
Given this new deal, there is likely a future beyond 2025 because we can now compete with the likes of GGN and SKV, sickening but that's the reality.
While I feel for the poolies, you'll have to excuse me if I don't shed any tears for them, this industry is many things, fair is NOT one of them!
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As a former pool swimmer, I really hope they take you guys onboard before the flow starts, or at least at a 50/50 ratio. fingers crossed, keep your heads up!!
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Sorry ski bum, hate to disappoint you but once signed, it's a legal document and enforceable, the ratio will be 80/20. Thanks for the 50/50 well wishes though 

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To be fair its 80% of hiring total over the next 11 years or untill the PML is exhausted.
How it gets done is ACs discreation.
They could run 1 whole GS of poolies for every 4 GS of Jazz.
How it gets done is ACs discreation.
They could run 1 whole GS of poolies for every 4 GS of Jazz.
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Not really. It is in the best interest of AC to remove as many off the PML given the cost savings afforded by the new CPA. The priority for assignment of the 80% is depletion of the PML or termination of the ALPA agreement. Once the PML has been exhausted a new program will be instituted by AC which will apply to all of the contracted carriers.AllClutch wrote:To be fair its 80% of hiring total over the next 11 years or untill the PML is exhausted.
How it gets done is ACs discreation.
They could run 1 whole GS of poolies for every 4 GS of Jazz.
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Yeah.
Thats exactly what I said.
The agreement ends in 2026 and I said that its done when the PML is exhausting.
Im just sayibg what the NC said. Its 80% of total hiring not 80% per groundschool.
I dont disagree that it pays to take more.
Thats exactly what I said.
The agreement ends in 2026 and I said that its done when the PML is exhausting.
Im just sayibg what the NC said. Its 80% of total hiring not 80% per groundschool.
I dont disagree that it pays to take more.
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I think it is also fair to say that list will be exhausted long before 2026. Not everyone on the list will be offered employment and not everyone will accept the offer either. I guess we will know more come Feb when the next batch of crew req numbers comes out.
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Re: Air Canada Pool
So should the poolies start jumping off the bridge yet
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Mbav8r, you write a compelling argument. My post was not meant to disrespect any Jazz guys. I agree this business is anything but fair. We've all got a "story". Since we are talking a relatively small group of Poolies, my point was to clear the deck of commitments before honouring new ones. If the Poolies are integrated in the 20 percent without going to the back of the bus, maybe everyone can be happy. Given the current info, not much will happen until guys retire. Hell, there is a couple of hundred that want back in ( or at least take our wives and houses in lieu ) so there's that.