Caravan Time

[CALGARYFLYER1]

Is it worthless logging right seat time on the caravan as its a one Pilot aircraft here in Canada?

[Brint]

If your company runs it two crew, has provided SOPs and has trained you as an F/O....you are a flight crew member and you should log it.

If you are there to throw bags and "get to fly in cruise" while the pilot fills out the logbook....you are help and you shouldn't log it.

[Meatservo]

Lots of planes that CAN be flown single-pilot are still legitimately flown with two. King airs, Beech 99s, Twin Otters, lots of them. For that matter, if the law would allow it (it doesn't) there is no practical reason much larger planes couldn't be safely flown by one person. It's just that "the rules" say you need two. Well if "the rules" say you need two people to fly the Caravan at your job, well then you're a real co-pilot and you can log real hours!

[CALGARYFLYER1]

Thanks guys.

[garfield]

I would say LOG IT, even if the a/c doesn't require 2 crew.

This time is gonna be worth for insurances or to get a job at another place, it's just not gonna count for TC.

A lot of people flew with me right seat in the Ho' (a private one, 1 pilot), some few hundred hours and it helped them a lot to find a job afterwards!

[trey kule]

I thought brint gave you, by far, the best advice here. It is just not what most eager young pilots want to hear, so they rationalize different What they want is to figure out any way they can to enter log book time

You log book is a record of your experience. If you are just warming the right seat, without Formal training, including dedicated flight training,band as mention, two crew approval, you are faking it as far as claiming it is experience for another job.
And , as a rule, if a prospective employer sees any of this when they look at your logbook, it is usually the end of the process for you. Some sneak through doing it.

Ask yourself honestly.,.not through the " everything is learning" group. Do you know the systems on a Caravan? Did you get dedicated training from a company pilot tasked to doit, or was it by osmosis.

Dont fool yourself. Experience counts. And if future employers are interested in you pax time , logging it will be good.

Lastly, I am aware of a Caravan operator that uses two crew. Their co joes are given extensive training. Ground and flight. They are actually part of a crew. And they go on seamously to become Captains with upgrade training and PIC under supervision.
On the other hand, I have seen resumes from pilots that read the AFM, hopped in the right seat as a talking sandbag, and then logged it on the excuse that all flight time is valuable...
Ask yourself which extreme you are closer to before you decide to log time.

[co-joe]

But what if the van is flying bags or cargo, and you log it all as dual?

[trey kule]

My understanding of dual is that you are being given instruction. Is that correct?

Flying around in the right seat typically does not meet that definition, unless there is instruction involved....the test would be whether the person in the right seat is actually flying as part of a training program, rather than informal learning by osmosis and being allowed to touch the controls the way I used to let my 10 year old do it.

I can not over empasize to you young and creative types. There is more to experience than trying to figure out a way to put an entry in your log book. Unfortunately, until you get experience that distinction escapes far too many.

[iflyforpie]

You are allowed to log dual if you are being given instruction, but only so many hours (I can't recall how many).

To log it as co-pilot... it must be operated as two-crew with Standard Operating Procedures. No.. you can't log time as a seat warmer on a SPIFR Caravan...

[switchflicker]

A couple of things to consider:
Dual instruction is received to achieve something like a rating or licence or maybe a PPC.
If you do log the right-seat time as dual 'cause you are not qualified to do anything else, how is it gonna look in your logbook. Hmmmm 200hrs dual - a) you are a very slow learner b) you quit before achieving the licence/rating or whatever. In any case, I would raise an eyebrow at that kind of dual.

[Vanguard]

1

[arctic_slim]

Wow. This is quite a big debate. Guy/Gal gets trained as a first oficer, goes through gound school and training and gets a PCC. You fly as an FO, you log the time as an FO. Yes some planes are single engine certified but as someone else said, if they are operated multi crew then I don't see the issue. Get the letter from the chief pilot saying the aircraft is operated 2 crew for ATPL submission (as many people have to do) and that's it.

You're flying as an FO, you log it. Whether some other potential employer sees this as valuable experience or as talking sandbag experience is a different question of course. There are 2 different debates about this I think. Logging it, and how valuable it is.

[Strega]

Go fly as much as you can!

Get in the thing, and actually learn to fly in IMC...

Regardless of what "time" you put in your logbook, you will be learning a whole bunch more than an instructor that is "teaching"

[duramaxguy]

I can vaguely remember stories of few cases in somewhat recent history (the last decade). When some select folks tried to get on with some large 705 operators. With minimal digging the hr dept found that these guys were falsely logging time without required ppc's and said g'day along with smearing $h!t on their names for other hiring teams to see.

Whether there is truth to these stories or not (and I could easily see this happening), all it takes is someone to look at your logbook, along with the ppc section of your license, and put two and two together. You could essentially eff yourself out of a dream job.

[ascend]

Where are you S.E. FOs logging Co-pilot time in your logbook?

I am in the middle of transferring from paper to e-format and ready to send to print but I want to properly document the entries. I am using mccPilotlog and there isn't a way to modify the columns.

Are you guys\gals using the blank columns are the far right?

[Caracrane]

cybx-cyif-czlt-cztb-cyhr-cygs-cykg-cyna-cygv-cyzv plus south coast of Labrador sometimes back in 1999-2000. My copilots were more than useful on that coast. Good handlers I could rely on. Plus loading, unloading, refuelling by ourselves... cargo hauls after the sked. I am EX-Regionnair, C-GDWY was the bird we used to fly that I saw in St-Louis a year ago now US registered. All the guys I had the chance to fly with,... well most of them are now AirCan, Jazz, FirstAir, TC, etc... so LOG IT. Flight time is Flight time, it's the real life,heard IT's just a big 172. Dépends on what you do with it. The 208-208b were kowned-ice at that time without mods. Old runway in ZLT was 1400 and ZTB and ZKG are still 1670ft if I remember correctly with a 208B full pods plus 9+2crew.

[Vanguard]

Where are you S.E. FOs logging Co-pilot time in your logbook?

I am in the middle of transferring from paper to e-format and ready to send to print but I want to properly document the entries. I am using mccPilotlog and there isn't a way to modify the columns.

Are you guys\gals using the blank columns are the far right?

If you are using a paper logbook..Usually you will have extra EMPTY columns. You need to add "SE Co-Pilot Day" & "SE Co-Pilot Night"

I'm not sure about MCC but a lot of online logbooks like the one I use has a feature to add columns as required.

[Vanguard]

1

[Diadem]

so LOG IT. Flight time is Flight time, it's the real life,heard IT's just a big 172.

Then why don't we log the time we spend as passengers? I should have hundreds of hours of 737 time by now! Even if it has to be in the cockpit, I should be able to log all the hours I spend sitting in the right seat of my buddy's plane. How about when I was a passenger on a Beaver and got to sit in the cockpit on revenue flights? I should have double the float time! I should apply to Harbour Air!!!

[ascend]

Where are you S.E. FOs logging Co-pilot time in your logbook?

I am in the middle of transferring from paper to e-format and ready to send to print but I want to properly document the entries. I am using mccPilotlog and there isn't a way to modify the columns.

Are you guys\gals using the blank columns are the far right?

If you are using a paper logbook..Usually you will have extra EMPTY columns. You need to add "SE Co-Pilot Day" & "SE Co-Pilot Night"

I'm not sure about MCC but a lot of online logbooks like the one I use has a feature to add columns as required.

Hi Vanguard,
Which online book are you using? MCC doesn't let you modify the columns of their logbook. Only way I can get S.E. Co-Pilot is to change my logbook format to a euro style.

Thanks

- sorry to hijack the thread !

[Vanguard]

I use safelog ... If anyone wants discounts for it let me know as their referral policy benefits both parties equally

[Kzanol]

In reality, it really doesn't matter what you log. If you get a job that wants 1500 hrs and you don't have 1500 hrs of experience, the person training you will spot it in about 10 seconds. You'll be sent down the road and someone else will fill the spot. I've only ever had one employer look at my logbooks, and that was just a formality more than an actual assessment of my time.

[awitzke]

What's your opinions on logging right seat time in a VFR GA8 Airvan? Asking for a friend...

[Big Pistons Forever]

What's your opinions on logging right seat time in a VFR GA8 Airvan? Asking for a friend...

You can put it in your log book, but it means nothing and can't be used towards a higher license, insurance requirements, or count as flying time in a resume.

[awitzke]

That's what I've said to him but I don't think he gets it. IIRC he was staying because insurance needed 500 total time to be PIC. But if you're saying it won't even allow that... well, then sounds like he should be moving on.