I'm trying to understand...

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upintheair_
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I'm trying to understand...

Post by upintheair_ »

This is not a troll post, I am genuinely interested in why people talk so poorly on the starting pay at Jazz (and other "stepping stone" regional carriers). I understand it is lower than it used to be with the old contract but doing the math the pay seems reasonable. Ideally everything can always be better but if I break it down I see the following.

77.5 Guaranteed Hours per month at $43/hour
150% over 85 hours
$84.50/day per diem (yes, yes, I know many people will argue it's not "pay" but for the sake of argument I'm including it. I live perfectly fine off a home packed breakfast and lunch every day)


At the starting pay of $43/hour, 77.5 hours = $3332.50/mo
Per diems, on an average of 15 days a month = $1267.50/mo

$3332.50 x 12 months = $39990/year
$1267.50 x 12 months = $15210/year tax free
That totals for $55,200 a year, as a year 1 FO. Fly for just two years with them and that number is now (3rd year pay $57/hr) $68,214. That is no OT.

Up that to say, 85 hours a month of flying that becomes $59,070.
Throw in a bit of OT over the year.. lets say 75 hours over 12 months and that total is now $63,907 not including the per diems of the extra days you would be working.

The way I look at it you get what you put into it. Work the minimum, get paid the minimum. Work a bit more, the money starts increasing quite well. Given what I make right now I'd be thrilled to be making even $50,000/year as a pilot. I fly 20 days a month and average 80-90 hours a month. If I flew the same amount of days and hours of what I'm flying right now I'd be making $68,000/year. A big jump from what I make now. No, a HUGE jump. And a step up on the career ladder and eventual progression into the majors. This is a big increase from our neighbors to the south and what they would be making on a Dash or CRJ..
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PROC_HDG
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by PROC_HDG »

Everything you've said is correct, except that $43/hour is no longer the starting pay at Jazz. Try $34/hour.

PROC_HDG
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Bajan Pilot
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by Bajan Pilot »

...also not every day is max per diems. I averaged $800-$900 a month.
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Oxi
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by Oxi »

PROC_HDG wrote:Everything you've said is correct, except that $43/hour is no longer the starting pay at Jazz. Try $34/hour.

PROC_HDG
36$ is the start
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PROC_HDG
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by PROC_HDG »

Oxi wrote:
36$ is the start
My mistake. First 3 years are 36, 37, 38?

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esp803

Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by esp803 »

Jazz, Encore, Sky Regional etc may seem like a great jump for some people who are currently in worse jobs. And yes there are many many jobs out there that pay worse than the starting rate at the regionals... which is sad.

Many of us however make substantially more than that when we become eligible for the position. And it's a real kick in the pants to take a 50% pay cut to "move up". The only year I ever made less than what you stated as a first year FO (And I think your numbers are ambitious) was my first year as a pilot. Granted one year I made about 40k, but that was a 3.5 month season, I took 7.5 months off to go traveling.

I now have a mortgage and an enjoyable lifestyle which I have become accustom to, both of which would be virtually impossible for the first 5 years or so at Jazz. In the long run, I might regret not chasing tin, but for me flying is a job and really the only thing I want out of it is a life that I enjoy.

Your millage may very, but I know quite a few single turbine captains and small multi turbine captains (King Airs and the likes) making in the 80-110k range combined with good schedules and great places to live.

E
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upintheair_
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by upintheair_ »

Ok, looks like the numbers at Canada Pilot Pay need to be updated then...

I understand where all of you are coming from. I guess for some the move is not worth it or there are other routes to get you to the mainlines if that's what you want (IE; capt in a 704 or something.. I know a few who went that route right into a 320 at A/C).

So with those updated numbers and $900/mo in per diems it's $44,000ish/year. A fair bit less, but still more than what a lot of 703 FO's and Capts. are making. For example a Navajo FO might make $25,000/year and Capt., $35,000/year. That's still a jump upwards on pay and the career ladder. If you were working for a turbine 704 carrier flying as a Capt. or even FO that move might be a bit harder financially and might make more sense to try to go direct to A/C or WJ. From what I understand talking to some employees, Jazz is trying to go more for those 1500 hour pilots making in the $30,000/year range with this new pay scale. So for a Navajo pilot the jump to Jazz would be worth it from the way it looks.

I'm sure further along in my career I will see different opportunities arise, just trying to keep my options open and look critically at each option there is.
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darkchild
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by darkchild »

No its a great, enjoy your hundreds of dollars a year....oh and your bagged lunches.....just remember Mom isn't allowed to go on layovers with you k?
So that means you'll need to make your own bagged lunches. Also you'll need to pack a cooler to carry two or three days worth of breakfasts, lunches and suppers with you on your pairings. I guess a good thermos as well for the coffee. Unless you like to drink the crap on board...which I betting you think is actually pretty good.... :roll:

Good luck on your future interview with Mainline in 8-10 yrs. You'll get to take another pay cut then when you make that move.......but on the plus side they have the same coffee on board.
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upintheair_
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by upintheair_ »

See, this is the kind of stupid comment I'm tired of reading on here. Trying to have an actual conversation. Based on your post you sound like you're the one still living in mom and dad's basement. You're probably not, but your attitude is dismal at best.

Before I got into aviation I made under $50k a year. In Vancouver. I had no problem supporting myself. If you have a family, sure might be hard but for those of us who are single and plan to use it as a stepping stone it's not the end of the world. Not everyone wants to fly floats, or medevacs for the rest of their lives.
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sstaurus
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by sstaurus »

I think he's trying to sarcastically point out that perdiems are not salary. You need those to eat daily.
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upintheair_
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by upintheair_ »

I've never understood this argument because in a way they are. If you didn't get per diems, where would the money come from? Your pay. Which is where my food money comes from now. With per diems your pay actually goes into your pocket.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

The new hire salary is extremely poor for an Airline wage! When the general public is shocked to hear what most pilots make, you gotta scratch your head a bit!

When a professional pilot is ok with the salary, this is where our problem starts! This is how we end up lowering our salary!
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

upintheair_ wrote:I've never understood this argument because in a way they are. If you didn't get per diems, where would the money come from? Your pay. Which is where my food money comes from now. With per diems your pay actually goes into your pocket.
You want to talk per diems? Pack your breakfast, lunch, and dinner plus snacks for 4 full days of work.

Then enjoy trying to keep it fresh and cold.

If this works, hopefully the meal doesn't require a microwave to hest it up.

If you find a microwave, enjoy washing your bowls in the bathroom sink after.

Ever cross the border? Font forget to claim all the meat products and fruit that is NOT allowed to cross the border!

Tired yet? I am.

So now I go eat at a restaurant at the airport and have a burger for $15, coffee for $3, tax tip and I'm close to $25. But who can eat burgers all week. Let have a healthy garden salad for $11 and add chicken for $5.

If I was a traveling salesman, I would claim all my expenses which would most likely be more then $80 or your salary dollars you've added to your normal salary.

If your company expects you to be away from your home for x time, there is a cost associated to that and it shouldn't be at the employees expense!
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creepilot
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by creepilot »

upintheair_ wrote:I've never understood this argument because in a way they are. If you didn't get per diems, where would the money come from? Your pay. Which is where my food money comes from now. With per diems your pay actually goes into your pocket.
You don't seem to realize that when you're on a pairing, your only option to eat is the restaurant (unless you wanna eat a subway sandwich twice a day for 3 days in a row). So it adds on.
You're not home where you can cook for cheaper.
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TG
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by TG »

upintheair_ wrote:I've never understood this argument because in a way they are. If you didn't get per diems, where would the money come from? Your pay. Which is where my food money comes from now. With per diems your pay actually goes into your pocket.
Perdiem is NOT a salary! End of the story.
Keep considering as one (salary) and it will eventually be removed or just taxed.

Seeing so many happy with their lunchbox why would a company bother having expenses like perdiem.



I'm not flying for Jazz but use perdiem often.
I will never sacrifice my personal health by eating crap food to save on perdiem.
By doing so....you have an issue with your salary or the way you manage your budget.
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MCB
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by MCB »

darkchild wrote: So that means you'll need to make your own bagged lunches. Also you'll need to pack a cooler to carry two or three days worth of breakfasts, lunches and suppers with you on your pairings. I guess a good thermos as well for the coffee. Unless you like to drink the crap on board...which I betting you think is actually pretty good.... :roll:
I'll just leave the mom thing alone. I think you'll find there is only a small majority of pilot's who still live at home (I myself am NOT one of them though).

Our perdiems at Jazz are quite good. They were negotiated for us by our union (FAs and Pilots have different perdiems). What I was told was they were increased substantially in the past to compensate for a somewhat flat pay increase.

I am not a cheap person. I will not hesitate to purchase that overpriced meal in the terminal. I will eat a full course and healthy meal on a layover. I will also buy other 'refreshments' (time permitting). However, I will frequently pack food in the form of left-over dinners, salads, fresh fruit, granola bars, almonds, popcorn, etc. I declare everything and have never had an issue with US Customs. You eventually get sick of having yet another Chicken Caesar Salad at YYZ.

Despite not being shy about spending my perdiem money, there is usually still a fair bit left over.

Do I consider it a supplement to my salary? No.
Do I think it's more than generous? I think so...
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av8ts
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by av8ts »

TG wrote:
upintheair_ wrote:I've never understood this argument because in a way they are. If you didn't get per diems, where would the money come from? Your pay. Which is where my food money comes from now. With per diems your pay actually goes into your pocket.
Perdiem is NOT a salary! End of the story.
Keep considering as one (salary) and it will eventually be removed or just taxed.

Seeing so many happy with their lunchbox why would a company bother having expenses like perdiem.



I'm not flying for Jazz but use perdiem often.
I will never sacrifice my personal health by eating crap food to save on perdiem.
By doing so....you have an issue with your salary or the way you manage your budget.
I pack healthy food made and in some cases grown at home. Much cheaper, better tasting and healther than some of the crap available in the terminals. I spend less than a quarter of my expenses on the road. I absolutely consider it tax free pay.
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BingBong
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by BingBong »

Wages are actually as of July 1, 1- $37.95, 2 - $38.49, 3 - $39.59

Haters are haters cause they most likely got pfo'd and are now bitter
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FlyHigh13
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by FlyHigh13 »

BingBong wrote:Wages are actually as of July 1, 1- $37.95, 2 - $38.49, 3 - $39.59

Haters are haters cause they most likely got pfo'd and are now bitter
I think that's next years wage increase.
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BingBong
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by BingBong »

Sorry my bad. 36.72, 37.74, 38.76
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PositiveRate27
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by PositiveRate27 »

FlyHigh13 wrote:
BingBong wrote:Wages are actually as of July 1, 1- $37.95, 2 - $38.49, 3 - $39.59

Haters are haters cause they most likely got pfo'd and are now bitter
I think that's next years wage increase.
How does that work? If someone were hired today making 36.72, would they make 37.34 or 38.49 next year as their 2nd year pay?
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AirMail
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by AirMail »

PositiveRate27 wrote:
FlyHigh13 wrote:
BingBong wrote:Wages are actually as of July 1, 1- $37.95, 2 - $38.49, 3 - $39.59

Haters are haters cause they most likely got pfo'd and are now bitter
I think that's next years wage increase.
How does that work? If someone were hired today making 36.72, would they make 37.34 or 38.49 next year as their 2nd year pay?
Means you'd make 38.49 on 2nd year.
BingBong wrote:Wages are actually as of July 1, 1- $37.95, 2 - $38.49, 3 - $39.59

Haters are haters cause they most likely got pfo'd and are now bitter
lol ppl are bitter at making mid 30s salary? ahahaha. Please stop justifying your own prostitution.
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rudder
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by rudder »

I will say this again - if potential applicants would like the starting pay at GGN/SKY/Jazz/Encore to go up, then DONT APPLY!

It is a sellers market and will become even more so in the not so distant future. Which airline is willing to cancel flights over the principle of low starting pay? Nobody that joins today is going to finish their career at a CPA carrier so forfeiting a few numbers in the near term will reap greater earnings rewards over the long term with normalised and reasonable starting pay levels.

Time to educate the carriers on labour market forces.
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Krimson
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by Krimson »

Easy to say when you have a job on an A scale.
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rudder
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

Post by rudder »

Krimson wrote:Easy to say when you have a job on an A scale.
Pilots are asking how do we collectively increase the starting pay at CPA carriers? I told them how and using market forces plus a little self discipline will probably achieve the desired result on the quickest possible timeline. Let's not get in to the wages and working conditions that many of us endured until we had enough and decided to act collectively. We all have our stories to tell. And some of us have actually done more than just bitch about it - we acted.

Do nothing and nothing will change. It is that simple.
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