Air Canada Pool

[Braaaap]

What's the thinking behind that? Why would someone want to defer?

[rudder]

Not a word. There are still hundreds of pilots still at Jazz who have deferred there position at AC.

Not "hundreds". By year end 2016 outstanding deferrals (from Jazz) will likely be less than 100. Not sure how many OTS pilots have deferred.

Rumour is significantly ramped up hiring at AC commencing in January. Would not be surprised to see entire Jazz PML list exhausted by the fall of 2017. That would be 450+ Jazz pilots moved to AC in just 2 1/2 years.

[Say Altitude]

There will be a great deal of poaching happening soon.

Are you speaking of the rumour of ACPA proposing to the Company that they offer signing bonuses to WJA (or SW/AT) pilots who are typed on the 737 so it fast tracks the entry of the MAX at Mainline next year?

This comment speaks to a complete lack of understanding of how hiring / training / award of vacancies / seniority works at AC. As has been stated, any type rated pilot must still go through the exact same training matrix as a non rated new hire. As well, all new hires are placed according to the vacancies made available to that class as that time. And furthermore the awarding of those positions within the class falls according to class seniority which is determined prior to type/base awards. This is all outside of the fact that any 737 positions going to new hires (they will in time) is purely based on the result of CMSC reviews and the desires of pilots on property to fill or not fill any 737 jobs before they go to new hires.
Besides all that, I'm certain the company is more than highly confident in the skills and abilities of current AC pilots to adapt to a new (seems strange to call a 50 year old design "new") type in the fleet.
Now would AC take any pleasure in poaching pilots from WJ/SW/AT? You betcha they would.

They have to do a full course now sure, but don't think for a second that the company isn't looking for short-cuts/cost savings. 400+ openings right now including the bottom 60% of the 320 FO in YYZ. Given the MEC history of lets and the fact the company gets to assign positions at the end of the PIT course, that if there is a way to do a short course conversion for the 737 that saves time AND training costs, don't think for a second that the Company won't go for it. And the MEC will allow it.

[altiplano]

I'd be surprised if you don't see courses packed with 737 drivers and all 737 position offerings next year before the first deliveries...

I was talking with a CMSC guy last week who said they're scared that 737 captain will be going to new hires. Seems they'll want guys with a relevant background it is going to happen.

[altiplano]

And before someone chimes in about the PML - know that it's almost completed - between deferrals and people already here, there is no commitment to anyone beyond the number specified in the jazz agreement. Crewing the airline and the training crisis will trump the rest when the big crunch starts in spring 2017.

[TheStig]

Not a word. There are still hundreds of pilots still at Jazz who have deferred there position at AC.

Not "hundreds". By year end 2016 outstanding deferrals (from Jazz) will likely be less than 100. Not sure how many OTS pilots have deferred.

Rumour is significantly ramped up hiring at AC commencing in January. Would not be surprised to see entire Jazz PML list exhausted by the fall of 2017. That would be 450+ Jazz pilots moved to AC in just 2 1/2 years.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you're always in tune with whats happening at Jazz. However, by my count just over 300 Jazz pilots have been in AC ground schools since the PML started (19 classes, with 16 from Jazz in each). There were over 700 on the list, correct? I realize some were not hired but, it would seem to me there could easily still be 200-300 still deferred.

The entire PML list was interviewed quite quickly and I'd certainly believe that the last of all the 2 year deferrals will be by the Fall of 2017 with the majority coming in the spring.

[TheStig]

What's the thinking behind that? Why would someone want to defer?

To maintain a senior schedule at Jazz, and then join AC with some pilots already junior to you at. Being senior at both carriers makes all the difference in the world. I imagine there are many different individual reasons as well such as providing extra time to get ones life sorted prior to starting at a new company.

[Lateralus]

Exciting times at AC. Happy to see this.

[jetav8r]

anyone in their 50's get hired recently?

[FL020]

most certainly - if degree in hand....

[Fresh Prince of King Air]

I've been on the 37 at WJ for 5 years. I would imagine that AC will see applications from us in the 100's. Myself included.

FPOKA

[Duke p]

I've been on the 37 at WJ for 5 years. I would imagine that AC will see applications from us in the 100's. Myself included.

FPOKA

You guys and gals will be welcome. Always good relations with WJ folks in the domestic terminals and overseas.

That said 737-Max, and especially C-Series Skipper jobs will go very junior. Wish I was in a position to fly that thing, it looks amazing.

It's my understanding that Air Canada will see the Max before WestJet does. We got some really early slots. Interesting.

DP.

[dtpilot]

FPOKA

Just curious why a 5 year WJ guy would make the jump to AC?

[pigboat]

Air Canada has over 1000 retirements over the next ten years as well as some modest expansion going on. Faster career progression is the key reason for considering jumping ships. Pilots with 4 years service are able to go A320 Capt at present. That position took me 20 years to obtain. 737 Max and Bombardier Captains will go quite junior for the next 5 years or more.

Pigboat driver

[fish4life]

It wasn't long ago guys were jumping from AC to WJ to try chase quicker upgrades and that looks like a big mistake now. To me jumping ship to chase metal can back fire, right now everything looks like from a career progression move AC will blow WJ out of the water for pace of upgrade etc. Can that change ? Oh yes, in my opinion work for the company you want to work for instead of the metal chase and you will be happier whether that is AC / WJ or other.

[Duke p]

Agree. Chasing metal has ended very poorly on many occasions. A certain set of twins comes to mind.

Find out which company has they type of flying you wish to do, then do everything you can to get there, and stay put.

Personally I don't think anyone could go wrong with AC. Huge variety in fleet types, huge variance in flying types and yes, there will be rapid advancement.

Are pilots at WJ still grooming on turns? I've always thought that a bit yuck.

Duke Point

[Fresh Prince of King Air]

dtpilot,

I'm not sure I can fully answer that question on this forum.

From an economical standpoint I believe now it makes sense. Please keep in mind this is the perspective of a pilot with 1000's of hours of airline experience. I'm not fresh out of college with 250 hours. I've spent the last 15 years gaining experience. We are now in a situation where we have options. The whole world is in demand of experienced narrow body pilots.

My best estimate for my upgrade on the 37 is approximately 2-4 years. Variables include fleet expansion and lease renewals, retirements, new duty rules, the impact of our part time pilot program and a possible wide body expansion.

From what I understand from reading on here and listening to my friends and colleagues over at AC are that upgrades are now possible in a little as 12 months.

AC is paid better than WJ in every category.

I am flying 780 hard hours a year and DH another 50. I don't have min daily credit, credit for deadheading, daily flight time reconciliation, or years of service. I pay fully for my STD and LTD benefits and the price is rising yearly and I don't have any loss of license insurance. I have the list of what AC pilots get for meal cost replacement and it is as much as triple what we receive in some cases. We have very limited duty day restrictions and probably the weakest federal duty regulations in the world which results in schedules that very often do not respect my body clock. I get that there is some of this type of flying to be expected as an airline pilot but when I download my schedule to the FCV app 9 out of 10 pairings light up red and yellow when I apply the US duty rules filter. The hotels that we stay in are in almost every case sub standard to what AC and Rouge crews get. I can't tell you the amount of times where AC heads downtown and we head to the closest industrial park motor inn. I spend 120ish nights a year in a hotel. If I can get one that is closer to the city core which often results in more food and recreational options, that will improve my life greatly. I don't want to spend my time in a hotel that is sandwiched between a runway and a 6 lane highway or so far out of town that you can't even call a cab to get some food anywhere.

The rough calculus that I did based on current fleet numbers, daily utilization and the latest seniority list tells me that AC pilots are logging about 500 hard hours in the seat a year. 280 hours a year less than us. I'm assuming due to most of the above reasons.

Lastly I'm noticing a change in my physical and mental health. I can't find evidence of any other narrow body operator in the world flying as much as we do with as little duty rules and RIGs as we have. Even Saudi Arabia has better duty rules than Canada. I don't know what the long term effects are of flying above FL350 for 800 hours a year with terrible sleep and nutritional habits and am worried what it will do to my health. I went to a sleep clinic in Alberta and the Doctor basically told me that if I don't make a change I'll be significantly reducing my chances of living past 65. The sleep problems are also causing some mental health changes. I find myself frustrated and angry more often mostly because I wasn't able to eat or sleep well.

The advantages of WJ over AC are becoming scarce. I encourage you debate them with me here as I try to make this decision to leave. I am going to apply try to get an interview and go from there.

Lately when Pilots complain about these issues we've been told that we have an "entitlement" problem....

Frankly I don't care what you call it. I only get one life and I want it to be the best one possible.

FPOKA

[sstaurus]

Don't forget lack of trip/duty credit of any kind.

[LTD]

That's a hell of a post FPOKA - very candid and thoughtful.

Your logic and priorities make perfect sense to me. With this in mind, I believe moving to AC would indeed be a logical decision.

I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do,
Respectfully,

LTD

[Chinaflyer]

Hi Fresh Prince

I hear you on the difficulty of the narrow body sched. I'm sure you're not "entitled" but you should know that the grass is not greener overseas when it comes to rest and duty. Due to the pilot shortage which actually exists outside Canada, everyone is flat out all the time.

In Singapore narrow body pilots fly close to 1000 hours per year. In China 900+ hours (not including delays) and roughly 200 hours DH with a lot of nights spent in hotels that make a tent and sleeping bag seem luxurious. I don't know about Saudi but I'm almost certain that the lifestyle for pilots there is NOT better than WJ. And you can forget about any kind of bidding for preferred schedule. You fly what they give you.

The main difference is that these places all pay a lot more $$ than any flying job in Canada. So it depends on your motivation really. If you're not able to enjoy your life now, being in the left seat won't make things any better.

If you think AC will give you the lifestyle that will allow you to enjoy your life and survive beyond 65 then why not try? Nothing to lose.

After spending the last 10+ years chasing metal I have come to the same conclusion as Duke. Join the company that fits with the life you want to live day by day and just enjoy life. The "prestige" of the left seat wears off pretty quickly when you're in the wrong place.

Seems like a no brainer to me. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[atphat]

Nice post FPOKA. I wonder how the WJ faithful would respond.

[Duke p]

Nice post FPOKA. I wonder how the WJ faithful would respond.

Isn't one of the definitions of "faith" belief without reason? I digress.


One reason to chose AC is the huge number of "bidding silos" meaning the each aircraft type (EMJ, 320,767,787,330,777) and position (CA, FO, RP) and base (YUL, YYZ, YWG and YVR) has its own "micro-seniority list".....you could choose to stay at the top of any one of those lists and have every Christmas, Easter, Graduation....etc off. Heck, you could get a position as an RP, stay at the top of the list, spend a third of the flight in the bunk, make $100,000 year working 10 days a month and have another job at home, or your own business. There's no small number that do that.

Each position at each base on each aircraft type has its own lifestyle. Variety is in abundance. Most pilots find one that fits nicely, and only move to the next step when senior enough not to affect the lifestyle they love. Some stay at the top of the seniority list, moving to the next higher paying position when they qualify for the top spot. It's as easy as leaving a standing bid at 1% on the CMSC bids....as soon as you can hold it, its yours.

There is no other airline in this country that even comes close to the variety of flying AC offers. A fix for not liking your flying life is usually only a bid away.

Duke Point.

[atphat]

Oh I totally agree! No need to convince me. Believe me. I was just wonder how the likes of brooks, realitychex, true north, ect would respond. You know. The ones who would defend grooming....ect.

[dtpilot]

FPOKA this has probably sparked the best thread this site has seen in ages lol. I appreciate all the facts and insight. The more pilot experiences at each airline can let people make the best decision for themselves. Now when is AC calling me???

[TheStig]

In the interest of full disclosure its worth talking about the other of the coin before you go and leave your job.

Obviously nobody has a crystal ball and can see what the future holds for AC, but historically if you look at hiring trends since the 80's movement has been massively cyclical. Pilots hired in '85, 95, '05, and '15 have all risen rapidly through the ranks with upgrades within a year while those hired at the ends of the same hiring waves 3-5 years later have faced stagnation and layoffs.

I'm no means saying that pilots hired in 2018-2020 will face those circumstances, we'd all like to see a steady stream of hiring spurred by retirements and growth, history simply shows otherwise. Aside from that, the 500 or so pilots that have already been hired will ride the crest of the current wave before the application window reopens. I'm not trying to sound disparaging, honestly, but it is worth tempering your expectations if upgrading within a year (or two) at AC is the primary reason you want to join. I would love to be wrong, I hope to be, but realistically massive expansion always has a ceiling.

Retirements are a huge bonus for sure, as stated 100-150 per year. In 2006 the junior EMJ Captain was around sen 2900, today it's 3100, three years ago 2600. There are about 3600 numbers on the list today. Without any further expansion, using retirements along it could take 4-7 years (earning 55,000-75,000) to hold the junior narrow body Captain spot.

As already mentioned a career flying for AC offers a lot of flexibility, however, I'm not sure the grass is quite as green as you may think it is, for instance 650-700 hours a year would be quite average, not including deadheading. As well half the pilots are 'junior' and have little control over when and where they fly. There is a good reason, junior positions are, well, junior.

I'm not trying to be a pessimist or negative in anyway. Flying at AC is fantastic, and if everyone on this thread was talking about how horrible things are, I'd probably be writing to defend it. However, given the current discussion I simply just wanted to put a few things into context.

I suppose my question to the Fresh Prince and others looking at leaving the Teal Team would be, why not try and fix all the issues you've highlighted to take advantage of the years of service you've already invested? It seems the WJPA simply has outlived its objectivity and a union representing the pilot groups' interest is long overdue. Easier said than done for sure, but when compared to 4 years of fixed rates at AC it must be the preferred option. FWIW talk of joining ALPA seems to be ever more common in our flight decks too.