Manitoba government contemplates privatizing province-run air ambulances, water bombers

[Heliian]

Governments have a great habit of wasting money as they f everything up. At least you can hold someone accountable in the private world. Maybe the 415 wouldn't cost so much if they had to sell it commercially either, it's a pretty simple aircraft, way overpriced. However, the fire tractors are just too small and not at all designed to be flown off water, you can't compare the two.

[vstrom]

I remember a guy I knew flew the Navajo for the MB gov and they would be sitting around getting paid not to do anything while the government chartered our Missinnippi because "they were cheaper"

Bullish!t.

Take your crap somewhere else. I'm one of many who flew the 'Ho there.

[Cat Driver]

Of all the people I ever flew for the Manitoba Government fire centre were the best to work for.

I flew the last four years of my fire bombing career for Manitoba and just could not want better people to fly for.

[nothingbeatsflying]

If cost was the issue, STARS would be eliminated. Twice the money and half the medivacs of Lifeflight.

Where can you find the mission numbers and financial details of both services?

[CLguy]

Well Jimmy you only have to look back at the fires in Kelowna, Slave Lake, Fort McMurray to realize cheaper is not always better. I'll bet those taxpayers wouldn't agree with you. You also have to re-adjust your math a bit. You are not buying a brand new FireBoss for $3mil. I, like Cat Driver have worked in and around both systems for many years and I'll take the government run operations any day for both safety and efficiency.

[Thaioneon]

Governments have a great habit of wasting money as they f everything up. At least you can hold someone accountable in the private world. Maybe the 415 wouldn't cost so much if they had to sell it commercially either, it's a pretty simple aircraft, way overpriced. However, the fire tractors are just too small and not at all designed to be flown off water, you can't compare the two.

Our Manitoba government has created a huge deficit, so cost cutting is warranted. Where the cost cutting is taking place is where the controversy starts. 415's are certainly effective in their role, extremely expensive I'll agree. Your comment about the "fire tractors" is obviously not based or backed with many facts, how do you know the tractor is not designed to be flown off water? I had to comment on this because that is laughable. It's a smaller bomber that'll be working in a support role with ground crew, it's not meant to replace larger bombers, but at 800 gallons it's not a slouch either. I think it's a cost effective a/c.

[North Shore]

Another side to the Fireboss equation is safety.

How many of those have crashed in the last 7-10 years? I can think of 5, one of which was fatal, and a couple of others within a whisker of being so. Sure they're cheap compared to the 415; so, too, are pilot's lives, apparently.

[Thaioneon]

Another side to the Fireboss equation is safety.

How many of those have crashed in the last 7-10 years? I can think of 5, one of which was fatal, and a couple of others within a whisker of being so. Sure they're cheap compared to the 415; so, too, are pilot's lives, apparently.

I don't understand why you say pilot's lives are cheap? I've been flying tractors for seven years, I don't consider my life cheap so that's a silly comment, and what was the cause of the majority of the crashes? Were they based on a flaw in the airframe or engine? My opinion is "with all due respect" lack of time on the airplane probably had a lot to do with it. It's a plane that takes a lot of time on it to become proficient. Truthfully, I think there should an extended training syllabus. It's the nature of the plane. I've seen people wash out before they were done their training. Low time on type and pushing the plane too far I think might have leant to some of these crashes, not that the airplane isn't safe. I totally disagree that the momentum these planes are gaining in the fire fighting sector are based on acquisition cost only.

[fish4life]

I remember a guy I knew flew the Navajo for the MB gov and they would be sitting around getting paid not to do anything while the government chartered our Missinnippi because "they were cheaper"

Bullish!t.

Take your crap somewhere else. I'm one of many who flew the 'Ho there.

Actually 100% true it would have been around 2010. Also my mom worked for the MB Gov and they would have to charter aircraft while the government aircraft sat idle because the government departments don't know how to share well. Eg conservation A/C being used for non conservation duties or the other way around. I'm all for keeping the fire program in house but the rest probably should be farmed out

[sunk]

I to believe the water bombers should be left alone. Maybe change the practice of how they operate. They seem to wait till early afternoon when the temperatures are high and the winds are up before going out to work fires. Why not hit them at sun up and before sunset? The single otters are poorly utilized, doing one man fire patrols, transferring 1 or 2 guys between bases. Sell them and hire the work out, much cheaper. The government(hydro) twin otter should go as well.. pretty machine but let the private sector do hydro's work.

[goingnowherefast]

The hydro Twin Otter came about because it was only needed for 1 or 2 strips and there isn't enough work to justify the private sector's investment. (Read underutilized and very expensive).

[sunk]

The twin otter came around due to a manager pushing and writing the contract as such. These two places have been serviced by the local operators for over 40 years. All of a sudden they couldn't? Laurie River being the shorter of the runways is a little more difficult. Fast Air has operated in and out safely with their 200 with reduced loads with no problems, they also use the Kelsey strip.

[goingnowherefast]

I've been into the Kelsey strip with a King Air, that one is easy. Laurie River at 2200' is pretty short for a King Air, no room for error. I know the private sector Turbine Single Otters used to go in there all the time, full load and tons of room to spare.

I'm not arguing that the Twin Otter is justified, I don't think it is. With the amount of money they spent on that airplane, they could have lengthened the strip for a fully loaded King Air. Alternatively they could have kept operating in there with Turbo Otters, maybe even allowed Caravans (I'm well aware of why MB Hydro stopped chartering Caravans).

The biggest problems come when big customers think they know more about airplanes than they actually do. Setting requirements, custom tailored for an airplane that looks really good on Wikipedia. (Reminds me of the Super Hornet/F-35 fiasco).

[Heliian]

how do you know the tractor is not designed to be flown off water?

Because it was designed to be flown on wheels with a big hopper full of product, which it does quite well, a great machine for ag work or dropping retardant. It's a handful because of the floats, it was never intended to be a seaplane. Maybe they could make a "fire master", a 337 on floats with a big tank and push pull pt6's.