PPL "legal" minimum DUAL time

[ago.xr]

Hi guys,
I have a question that comes from a quotation I received for a 45hrs PPL from a flight school.
The quotation showed 17 hrs dual and 28 hrs solo.
Now, all the other quotation I got where basically the other way around: 33 dual and 12 solo.
What do you think about this?
Is there a reason for that I can't think of?
What is the minimum legal amount of hours of dual instructing for a PPL?
Thanks very much,

Cheers.

[PilotDAR]

Ago, You may refer to the standard:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... htm#421_26

Which includes the requirements:

(4) Experience

(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 45 hours private pilot flight training in aeroplanes under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane. A maximum 5 of the 45 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or flight training device.
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)
(b) The flight training shall include a minimum of:
(i) 17 hours dual instruction flight time, including a minimum of 3 hours cross-country flight time and 5 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 3 hours may be instrument ground time; and
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)
(ii) 12 hours solo flight time, including 5 hours cross-country flight time with a flight of a minimum of 150 nautical miles which shall include 2 full stop landings at points other than the point of departure.

Bear in mind that these are minimums. Your objective is to be well trained, and a PPL should be a step along the way for that, rather than a final objective. Having met the three minimums in piloting experience, you'll still have a lot to learn, you'll just be able to take someone else along, and fly outside the supervision of an instructor while doing it.

[ago.xr]

Bear in mind that these are minimums. Your objective is to be well trained, and a PPL should be a step along the way for that, rather than a final objective

I certainly would expect so!
These 17-28 hrs (dual-solo) have been used by a school to give me a quote for the PPL but it's rather unusual i think and, coincidentally, the quote comes out cheaper since there's less dual time. But all in all 17-28hrs is unlikely to say the least...

[MrWings]

Now that you know the answer, it would be a good test to ask the school that provided you the quote for an answer. How they respond will be a good indicator of their motives and whether you should be giving them your money.

[photofly]

How they respond will be a good indicator of their motives and whether you should be giving them your money.

All flight schools have the motive of making a profit - at least I don't know any that are charities, or give away training for free.

Flight schools list the cost of the minimum number of hours because that's what every other flight school does. Picking a flight school because the dope who's sitting there waiting to answer the phone is more or less fluent at answering your suspicious questions is about the dumbest way to distinguish one from the next.

[MrWings]

Picking a flight school because the dope who's sitting there waiting to answer the phone is more or less fluent at answering your suspicious questions is about the dumbest way to distinguish one from the next.

Really?

If they are hiring dopes, that would be a red flag.
If they can't explain the difference between minimums and average times, that's a red flag.
If they are being purposely deceptive or refuse to answer questions, that's a red flag.
If the focus is on putting down a deposit right now instead of coming up with training plan that fits your needs and schedule, red flag.

[photofly]

In the course of learning to fly, you're going to spend in aggregate about 60 minutes talking to the guy behind the desk, and 50+ hours in classrooms and in a small metal box with your instructor. Which do you think is more important?

Choosing where to learn to fly is 10% about admin, and 90% about finding an instructor who suits you.

[mike123]

In the course of learning to fly, you're going to spend in aggregate about 60 minutes talking to the guy behind the desk, and 50+ hours in classrooms and in a small metal box with your instructor. Which do you think is more important?

Choosing where to learn to fly is 10% about admin, and 90% about finding an instructor who suits you.

The dopes in the classroom and in the airplane and the dopes behind the desk follow the orders of the same manager.
If the manager directs the admin staff to deceive prospective students by providing unrealistic quotes, he or she also likely directs the instructors to do unnecessary flying to increase revenue.
Dishonesty begins at the top and flows down in all directions.

17 hours dual for PPL is unrealistic for a person with no previous flying experience. 45 hours total time is also not very realistic. The average in Canada is about 60 hours total.

[Aviatard]

The average in Canada is about 60 hours total.

What's your source for this 60 hour number?

[PilotDAR]

directs the instructors to do unnecessary flying to increase revenue.

I would agree that the 20th hour of straight circuits, when a student should be practicing airwork, or cross country, might be "unnecessary" at that phase in their learning, but flying is what the student is there to do! I think that the only unnecessary flying would be that which happens after the school has already determined that that student will never have what it takes. Otherwise, students should be flying! It is helpful to steer the student away from thinking that a PPL is an end point. It's a step along the way of learning. In my mind, a PPL is not a point at which the student should think themselves forever free of flying with an instructor either. Even if the student is satisfied with "day VFR" flying, there is always more learning and refresher to be flying.

Hopefully, flying schools are assuring that the student's time in the aircraft is learning value added, but I hope that they are not trying to minimize it!

Students, if a school is telling you that you can plan to meet skill requirements after the minimums, you're not getting the best advice. If you're attempting to earn a PPL in the minimum time, and then bolt for freedom, you're cheating yourself, and your future passengers.

For myself, for my second period of my life as a student pilot, I deliberately did not seek a PPL for several years, preferring the mentored freedom to fly on my own as a student for that period. I flew supervised cross countries, to places I knew well, and sometimes, just circuits, but still benefited from my instructor's wisdom, when I returned to debrief the flight, and my observations. Eventually, my instructor said to me: "You already have all the requirements for your private license, just go and take the flight test, okay!". I did, I passed.

[waterdog]

As someone who has just finished the process I can attest to the difficulty of becoming comfortable enough to challenge the flight test with the minimum amount of time. I had 44.6hrs when I challenged the flight test and wasn't over the 45hrs until the end of the test.

How did I do it?

Immersion. I tried to fly 3 times a week which meant I usually got up twice. I knew my ground school facts cold and studied every night so that I could understand the information and not just memorize it. I tracked my flights so that I could tear them apart afterwards and debrief every aspect of the flight. This allowed me to see the unstable approach and my altitude loss on steep turns, see where I was screwing up so I knew what to watch for the next time I was up. I would spend hours prepping before my flight and "chair" flying my way through the skills. I flew out of a small airport with zero wasted time sitting on the apron waiting for an opening. When I was up on a solo I actually practiced everything I was supposed to and didn't go on my own guided tour of the area.

Having said all of that I cannot believe how much I still have to learn. I aced my written test and aced my flight test and there is a host of things that I would never attempt without an instructor onboard.

I feel comfortable enough to take out a plane that I know, from an airport I know and fly in the country, in airspace I know. I feel safe and feel as prepared as I can be. But, change a variable and its a different beast. I anticipate a lifetime of learning and flying with an instructor when I am in doubt of something, or want to experience something new. ( like grass landings)

So, it can be done but it takes a lot of things to come together. Don't go into it with a budget for 45hrs. Go into it with a budget for 70hrs and that way your not caught if you need more time. You'll be better off in the long run saving longer and having the room in the budget then adding the stress of running out of money as you get close to test time.

My 2 cents

[PilotDAR]

Great post Waterdog! Every new pilot should read!

[GQ4]

The more important question to ask a school is to show you a syllabus about how they will use that time to train you. I suspect the 17/28 school doesn't have a proper plan in place which means you'll just be blowing in the wind accumulating more hours. I would suggest picking a school that can show you a detailed training plan about how your hours will be used, what exercises will be accomplished on which flights, etc. They are more apt to give you a realistic plan (that you'll actually achieve).

National average to complete a PPL in 2015 was 71.0 hours. Varies from a low of 62.2 in Atlantic Region to a high of 78.3 in Ontario Region (numbers direct from TC).

[Blakey]

Find a school that teaches Air Cadets and ask for an instructor who has taught them. Tell them you want as much of the same schedule as your life/wallet can permit. If you can give them 7 weeks of your time, they will have you through the PPL with time to spare. They do it 80 times a summer in Ontario and hundreds of times a summer across Canada.

[rvdungen]

Any flight school that quotes you 17 hours dual for a PPL has already lied to you. Do you think it gets better from here? I bet their average actual PPL completion hours are north of 100.

Also if you're dumb enough to fall for that quote I don't want you as a student as my school as you place no value on honesty or quality.

I think a better question would be to ask what their average completion times are. I've seen schools with fancy planes and happy people but PPL flight test times averaging 130 hours consistently and kids nailing the ride. They were probably just as good at 80 hours.

[Cat Driver]

Also if you're dumb enough to fall for that quote I don't want you as a student as my school as you place no value on honesty or quality.

You can't teach a PPL in the minimum hour format that TC gives you?

How come they could do us in 30 hours when I did mine?

[Aviatard]

I bet their average actual PPL completion hours are north of 100.

You have no basis for making this bet.

Also if you're dumb enough to fall for that quote I don't want you as a student as my school as you place no value on honesty or quality.

Hardly a reasonable assumption. People don't know what questions to ask, so they ask here.

I've seen schools with fancy planes and happy people but PPL flight test times averaging 130 hours consistently and kids nailing the ride.

What schools are these and how were you able to access their completion times?

They were probably just as good at 80 hours.

Again, a totally baseless assumption. You're just throwing out numbers with no facts. Cmon dude.

[photofly]

Here are some reasons why flight training can take longer time that one might like. In no particular order:

Students who don't value efficiency. Students who don't actively engage in their own learning, because they don't understand or care that their demonstrated level of competency sets the pace. Students who don't think about flying from the time one lesson ends to the time the next one starts.

Instructors who don't value efficiency. I'm not talking about people padding their logbooks or milking students: most instructors, like most people in all jobs are honest and well meaning. But if you're an instructor and you don't actively seek to help your student learn as fast as their own engagement allows, you're slowing things down.

Students who don't speak adequate English. It takes longer to teach people when you and they have trouble understanding each other, and when they and ATC can't understand each other.

Flight schools that throw in extra hours requirements: students are required to log x solo hours in the circuit, students are required to fly more than the minimum number of hours of dual or solo cross country time. Sometimes those extra requirements are imposed by the school alone, and sometimes by Transport Canada inspectors who make clear their "preference" for a certain pace of training, or certain standards or benchmarks above and beyond those listed in the CARs with which flight schools feel obliged to comply.

Students who take long gaps in their training: they leave town, they leave the country, they run out of money, or they run out of interest for six weeks or six months, or six years.

Students whose schedules don't allow flexibility for bad weather days.

Flight schools without flexibility because they're overly busy, or have maintenance issues, so booking an aircraft is difficult.

Complex airspace and busy urban airports: I don't think it's a huge factor, but I'm fairly sure at least the initial stages of training can go faster if you're learning at a sleepy grass strip in the boonies where you're the only aircraft in the circuit all day and nobody's watching, compared to a busy airport served by part 705 arrivals every six minutes, all day. I believe there are benefits to learning at a busy airport but speedy training isn't among them.

[PilotDAR]

And, the second great post of the thread from Photofly..... Every new pilot should read!

[rvdungen]

Aviatard

I've been a pilot examiner for 10 years and have been to many different schools. Therefore I have access to their completion times and direct knowledge of the skill levels of their students.

Compare students from different schools with similar backgrounds and the schools with poor supervision and shady marketing have consistently had PPL students with times greater than 100 hours at flight test. I even tested a guy with close to 300 hours initial PPL.

Also when instructors get upset when I PASS their student because they don't have any more work lined up is very telling.

[ShawnR]

For myself, for my second period of my life as a student pilot, I deliberately did not seek a PPL for several years, preferring the mentored freedom to fly on my own as a student for that period. I flew supervised cross countries, to places I knew well, and sometimes, just circuits, but still benefited from my instructor's wisdom, when I returned to debrief the flight, and my observations. Eventually, my instructor said to me: "You already have all the requirements for your private license, just go and take the flight test, okay!". I did, I passed.

Same story here. I went through 3 instructors to find one that fit right. The second one was so busy I went two full months (not consecutive ones) that I did not fly at all so some time was spent relearning/refreshing each time. I had my own plane then so was lucky not to have been subjected to rental fees and as pilotDAR says, I was flying so no rush. My instructor finally told me to "book the $%#@ test already" with a smile. I had 96 hours if I recall correctly. Paying rental fees adds a factor but as many here have posted, getting the license is only the beginning and just a license to learn more.

Good luck. Lots of good advice here.

[Aviatard]

I've been a pilot examiner for 10 years and have been to many different schools.

Welp, seems I was wrong, and you do have reason to make those claims. Apologies. What an appalling situation though.