337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

[PilotDAR]

Once I am approaching 50 hours on a new type, I find that I refer to a paper checklist less, if at all, though if a client's SOP says to use it, I do. I would much rather look inexperienced because I was reading from paper during a phase of flight, than in experienced because I forgot something, and it became an expensive mistake. I don't have the tens of thousands of flying hours of others, so I guess that I have yet to learn how to talk my way out of any mistake I might make, based upon sheer experience - which I forgot to apply!

Basics like landing gear and flap position, and engine control settings can generally be handled from memory, and there is no excuse for simply forgetting to select the gear as required during a "normal" flight, but there are other "little things" which can catch you out, if they become one of the holes in the Swiss cheese later.

Some aircraft have odd systems, which also need attention. How about a type whose landing gear selection has either three or four separate actions up to down, and one of them has no indication what so ever? Referring to the checklist is not a bad thing for that....

[2.5milefinal]

too many use them as a "read, then do", which is incorrect. A checklist simply backs up actions already carried out. Another problem I have with them, is the blind faith pilots put in them. Problem here (huge one) is, if interrupted items tend to be missed. Nothing comes even close to a good geographic scan.

Sh1t, I have to agree with this too.
I make sure to teach the guys I am with about exactly these pit falls.

[Doc]

Basics like landing gear and flap position, and engine control settings can generally be handled from memory,

Apparently, not often enough...which is why we even have this thread.

I use a geographic scan for all phases of flight. It can be as simple as "Okay, I'm landing, what do I need?" At very minimum, Flaps, Gear, runway is clear......This alone will save you the egg on your face of a gear up landing. Is it simple enough for everybody? I think it is. Another life saver. Set you altimeter to field elevation before you do ANYTHING else on the first flight. Now, if you somehow manage to miss the setting, and have to come back nordo, you might not kill yourself.

[lownslow]

A question for you guys who toss the written checks: are you referring to small, single pilot aircraft or all situations?

LnS.

[AuxBatOn]

Every aircraft I have flown. I fly the CF-18 and I never get my checklist out, other than for emergencies...

[Colonel Sanders]

I never get my checklist out, other than for emergencies

Ditto - for any aircraft I fly.

At the Ottawa/Gatineau airshow, I think one year I
flew the 450hp Stearman, L39 and Pitts in one show.

Very different aircraft. Didn't use a checklist for any
of them.

I guess I could have a checklist for the R-985 Stearman
emphasizing the need for stick in the front right corner
in a hammerhead, which is totally unnecessary in the
Pitts doing the same maneuver with a composite prop.

But what would I do if the checklist blew out of the
open cockpit? Declare a mayday and land? But how
would I, without a checklist?

[Doc]

Same here.

I don't need a check list for my truck, car, lawn mower, weed sacker, motorcycle or anything else......why are we so hung up on a written check list to fly an airplane under normal circumstances? When I have questions about my weed sacker, I pull out the wee book. Just like i do in an airplane!

Perhaps our dependance on check lists is a problem here?

Seriously....if you NEED a cheek list to remember to put the gear down, you need to be in a simpler line of work!

[Colonel Sanders]

dependance on check lists

It's a bomber pilot thing. Unfortunately they
rule the world, as the Kings of Aviation (tm).
(insert harrowing tale of dreaded 7-engine
approach in B-52 here).

When was the last time you saw a rotary-wing
pilot take both hands off the pitch & collective (!!)
and reach down to pick up and read their pre-landing
checklist?

[CamAero]

Here's a 337 with a few more things to forget:

http://theflyingboatforum.forumlaunch.n ... f=66&t=812

[pdw]

Perhaps our dependance on check lists is a problem here?

Seriously....if you NEED a cheek list to remember to put the gear down, you need to be in a simpler line of work!

At one time or other most flying volks probably were convinced you needed the checklist at all costs to remember the gear etc.

Didn't oldncold tell us the checklist was rambled off and the gear stayed up ?

"Perhaps" is right ... this could get interesting

[Chuck Ellsworth]

There is the fear factor to think about.

When you consider the massive written check lists pilots are subjected to in their flight training and the fear of Transport by the instructors the fear has to rub off on the students.

[PilotDAR]

Hmmm, I'm sitting here reading the Flight Manual for an aircraft type I have only flown 48 hours, and not recently. I'm refreshing my knowledge of the plane, before I ferry one next week. As I have not flown one recently, and am not highly experienced on type, am I worthy of ridicule for reading the book before I fly it?

If I use the checklist in the cockpit, will I receive the evil tone here? I assure you the the owner will not employ me to fly it again if he thinks I do not refer to the checklist. He knows that carrying the checklist aboard is required by regulation, so like anything else required to be carried in the aircraft, he would like to think that it will be used as intended.

When I did my CPL flight test in the C150 I had owned for 22 years at the time, I was still required to refer to the checklist for the aircraft, or the flight test would be a fail (or so I was warned).

[pdw]

If you're flying dozens of different aircraft you have no choice, not like flying your own or the same one (single pilot) day after day.

The warning still sticks in my head .... "don't memorize the checklist".

[pelmet]

I will fly about 10 small types this year, a few only once for a checkout none of them for very many hours. I normally follow all checklists for ground ops except for after landing on a few simple types. Can't always remember the particular runup rpm or mag drop limit for example. Inflight for new types I follow all checklists. For familiar stuff, I admit that some checks don't get read in the air but instead are done from memory although a minimum of a GUMP check will be done(sorry if you don't like the term). Not current on any retractables(but still do a GUMP).

I guess a lot of people don't do checklists religiously as when I got checked out in a PA-181 Archer a month ago and after following the checklist closely, the instructor said she had never seen anyone do that before. But, even though I have flown the Arrow and the Cherokee 140 before, this was a new type(not much difference except a cooling fan to be turned off for flight) and most places like to see you use the checklist so best to do it for the checkout.

And if you are just an average pilot like myself, flying many different types, flying a new registration of the same type or not flying that frequently for a type, I suggest a checklist. There are things that the smart guys can get away with that most of us may not be able to do consistently.

There are can always be little gotcha's even for an different aircraft of the same type. A checklist may catch it if you haven't flown for a while or are not very current.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A check list must be onboard of the aircraft, to what extent you read it at what portion of the flight will depend on what you do not know about that airplane.

When I was first trained I was taught a military memory check list that covers most items in most airplanes.

I can get in an unfamiliar airplane and using that memory checklist and a flow check I will be able to safely fly the airplane.....I am also aware that if there is something I can not figure out I can look it up in the check list.

The more time I have in a given airplane the less I will need to look up in a written check list.

Back to flight training.......how much head down in the cockpit do students spend reading and following their lengthy check lists?

[trey kule]

When I was first trained I was taught a military memory check list

Harness and hatches..Try my finger for size Charlie?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Harness and hatches..

...hydraulics...

Thanks for offering your finger for size TK but unfortunately I am not wired to like that ....

[GARRETT]

Well, in the 705 world, it's all about checklists. Generally we use flows backed up by the checklist but ALWAYS use the checklist. I can't imagine a crew hopping in the simulator or aircraft and just 'winging it'. Humans are the weakest link in that flightdeck and anything that will help mitigate errors should be used, like checklists. Maybe I've spent too much time on the 705 side of things but all I can say is that checklists have saved my ass more than once and I use them religiously!

[pelmet]

A check list must be onboard of the aircraft, to what extent you read it at what portion of the flight will depend on what you do not know about that airplane.

When I was first trained I was taught a military memory check list that covers most items in most airplanes.

Like the use of mnemonics for a checklist. Still easily remember one for landing from a few years back that was for a WWII military aircraft. Several might recognize it......HUGBUMPF.

Harness, Hood, Undercarriage(select down), Gas, Brakes, Undercarriage(check down), Mixture, Props, Flaps.

Works especially well when you are busy in the pattern with a lot going on.

[iflyforpie]

705 and even 702/3/4 ops under two crew SOPs are a bit different in that you have other crew members who can follow along on a checklist and challenge/response you as you are going through items.

But still, look at how many times the gear has been forgotten on landing, or the flaps forgotten on takeoff under multi crew reading checklists and following SOPs.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I guess the bottom line is we each use check lists as we see the need for them at any given time.

For those of you who " Always " use them what would you do if there was no check list avaliable?

Doc brought up a good point, why don't people need check lists to operate most other mechanical devices in society?

[Rowdy]

Off -topic.. but man that 336 on floats looks like fun! dont have to worry about swinging a prop over the dock and still have a twin! fairly quick too I'd imagine. I wonder what the useful load was like..

[7thirtyseven]

Every aircraft I have flown. I fly the CF-18 and I never get my checklist out, other than for emergencies...

Oh lord look out mavrick!!!

[switchflicker]

Doc brought up a good point, why don't people need check lists to operate most other mechanical devices in society?

'Cus the consequences are not nearly as severe or maybe the operation of said devices is not quite as complicated for the average individule. Not including the Cat of course.

Sw

[Doc]

Doc brought up a good point, why don't people need check lists to operate most other mechanical devices in society?

'Cus the consequences are not nearly as severe or maybe the operation of said devices is not quite as complicated for the average individule. Not including the Cat of course.

Sw

I don't know. I've seen some pretty tragic results from the misuse of a chainsaw.