First Air off course

[Gino Under]

What didn't happen on this flight, didn't happen.

Peter Black, chair of the First Air unit of the Air Line Pilots Association International, said in a statement that the union is "deeply disappointed" with the decision to fire the pilots "prior to a complete and thorough investigation of the incident."

“This rush to judgment has unfairly called into question the expertise and professionalism of a crew with more than 40 years of combined flight experience," Black said. "We will use all of the union’s resources to investigate this incident and support the crew.”

Is First Air going to put more reliable (than the B737-200) equipment in the north to prevent something similar from happening?
Could this crew not have been demoted or suspended without pay for six months?
I suppose that might mean First Air would have to acknowledge this industry has been studying human factors for decades and have pointed out the realities of complacency on the flight deck.

Are we to believe no one saw this coming? What about the saviour of aviation? SMS. Non-punitive, eh?

Mr. Black, good for you and your union!

Gino Under

[Old fella]

The crew was fired.
Disappointing outcome I'd say.

Gino

Not knowing northern operations, First Air or B737-200 type would it be silly of me to suggest, perhaps this unfortunate crew sort of got caught up in the "atmosphere" of the crash report from Resolute thus this airline's management had to be seen(in their view) as taking decisive action. Granted it was a gross navigational error but as I understand it, there was plenty of gas and the aircraft landed at intended destination no problem, nobody was hurt or seriously put out. No doubt administrative discipline of some type is warranted but dismissal…………. one hopes there may be some type of defense for the crew as to what did go down and why, thus limiting damage to this crew's reputation. I hope things do work out for them in a positive manner

Just asking.

[FICU]

Definitely a swift and severe reaction from management. Hope ALPA can help the the crew.

[ajet32]

If ALPA can't help this crew then everyone else will just go into CYA mode starting now. The idea that some have that this was willful negligence is pure BS I would think spoken by people who A) don't fly large aircraft, B) Don't have a great deal of experience, C) Have never flown in the North.
Point (2) any pilot who says he has never been lost is a liar plain and simple.
Firing these pilots is reactionary management at its worst. One would think that a company such as First Air would be better than that.

[boxcut]

"We are not for sale"

The Hounds keep barking at the gate, and I bet they'll maintain that line right up until they sign on the dotted line.

On the actual subject of the pilot's firing, very very interesting response from ALPA, makes me wonder how far they will push this, and what sort of infighting is happening at 7F. From what I've heard from a few contacts there, backlash is inevitable, morale keeps slipping, and management is making it worse.

Firing these pilots is reactionary management at its worst.

Reactionary? More like knee jerk decision making. I've seen it happen before, I'm not saying that the end result of an investigation might not have led to the pilots being let go, but a rush job makes the situation worse.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I don't know the correct course of action. Neither do most of the hot air dispensers on this web site.
I do know, something HAD to be done to reassure their customer base. Would YOU let your family fly First Air right now? I will not. And I've actually flown for them. These guys were not 20-30 mines north of track! They were several hundred miles out in LALA Land. This company, like it or not, IS under the public microscope right now. Now, imagine a little less fuel? Letting their sight seeing tour go a little longer? You really think they had any other course of action open to them?
Illya

[ReserveTank]

I agree with the firing. Not knowing where you are is inexcuseable. One of your jobs as a pilot is to AT ALL TIMES know exactly where you are right now and where you are going.
It's not a learning experience either. The crash at Resolute wasn't enough of a learning experience to make these guys think about position?

[flyinthebug]

I don't know the correct course of action. Now, imagine a little less fuel? Letting their sight seeing tour go a little longer?
Illya

Completely agree with Illya on this one. Sure it was a "non event" in regards to being an incident or accident, BUT what if they had a little less gas? Or a lot less gas? This non event could have become another fatal accident for First Air.

Someone said that "every pilot has been lost". I agree I was lost with my PPL about 30 years ago between YQT and YQK because I thought I didn't need a map and could fly the VOR all the way. For 20 mins or so with 60 hours TT I was a bit worried and kinda lost. As a professional pilot I have never once ever not known where I was. The size of tin doesn't matter...when you have the level of experience that these two pilots had and still fly 100s of miles off course...something is wrong with that picture, and there is no "excuse" that holds water with me. Maybe firing them was a bit over the top, but they certainly were in line for demotion and even suspension. Don't worry though, the good old (ALPA) union always bail out the weak, lazy and downright stupid.

Just ask yourself...what if they were flying on min fuel? Destination plus 45? Hmmmmm. Good thing they filled her up before they left I guess.

Fly safe all.

[frozen solid]

The problem with this discussion is that the airline has not revealed to the media why the aircraft was off course. Regardless of whether the crew actually deliberately ignored S.O.P. in some way, or just entered a frequency or waypoint wrong or did some incorrect math, there IS an actual nuts-and-bolts reason the aircraft wandered off course, and unless I'm behind on the news, none of us knows what that is.

There must have been an element of bad luck to the whole thing, like a particularly bad gyro or something. "Fault" is a pretty nebulous thing.

I'd be interested to know what you guys would think if it turned out later that the GPS had been M.E.L. 'ed on that aircraft. (Just for the sake of argument) Half of you guys don't seem to think it should be necessary to learn how to navigate any other way. How would your feelings change then? Is that a no-go item? I'm pretty sure it's not.

I'm not saying I disagree that being lost is a pretty silly thing to have happen... But I certainly don't like hearing about pilots being fired if there is a mechanical reason for the occurrence; even "finger trouble"... it's hard to say that's never happened before.

[pdw]

.. Someone said that "every pilot has been lost". I agree I was lost with my PPL about 30 years ago between YQT and YQK because I thought I didn't need a map and could fly the VOR all the way. For 20 mins or so with 60 hours TT I was a bit worried and kinda lost. As a professional pilot I have never once ever not known where I was. The size of tin doesn't matter...when you have the level of experience that these two pilots had and still fly 100s of miles off course...something is wrong with that picture, and there is no "excuse" that holds water with me. Maybe firing them was a bit over the top, but they certainly were in line for demotion and even suspension. Don't worry though, the good old (ALPA) union always bail out the weak, lazy and downright stupid.

Hard to believe they could have been lost, which sounds almost like a worse grade than falling briefly into slumber; or perhaps a fatigue issue influences an instrument/setting error.

A feasible out may be to actually submit to getting involved in the fatigue studies, to search government grants and get on board with the fatigue research for CRM. It looks to be the 'in thing' right now for aviation organizations to better understand aviation fatigue issues, and definitely not for ANYONE to live a lie about it if we're really seeing the issue arise too often. Why else does experience allow it 'off course' ? I'll bet there's no shame here in admitting 'asleep at the switch' at this point if that's closer to the truth. Wide awake they "admit their mistake", can sound a bit like admission via rude awakening from ATC radio (still groggy but refreshed).

[GyvAir]

Why would the CADORS report for this incident have been removed from the TC site?

[Sidebar]

Why would the CADORS report for this incident have been removed from the TC site?

It has not been removed.
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2014C1147

[GyvAir]

That's odd.. when I asked why it would be gone, the link to it on the first page of this thread was dead. A CADORS word/text search still doesn't show anything for First Air or Bradley after March 15.

[Gino Under]

It will be a sad day in aviation the day we start firing pilots based on "imagine what type of catastrophe might have happened "if".


NEWSFLASH
What might have happened, didn't happen.
If I was their Chief Pilot I'd make sure they taught northern navigation to my crews for at least a year.
Let's be honest, it wouldn't hurt First Air to modernize their fleet of 737s either.

Gino Under

[trey kule]

If the pilots were fired for gross negligence, it was because they got lost due to their own actions.

And yes, when that happens, the repercussions of keeping them on and having a repeat are definitely a consideration. Some screw ups are just to serious for a company to take another chance on.

If it is no big deal, I am sure, with their experience and type ratings they will be welcomed with open arms by other carriers. Probably getting job offers as we speak. These are definitely the kind of pilots I want in the front end when my family is in the back.

And as a caring company it is important that one promotes the message to all their pilots that this type of behaviour is perfectly OK., and there will be no consequences as long as turns out well in the end.




,

[Illya Kuryakin]

It will be a sad day in aviation the day we start firing pilots based on "imagine what type of catastrophe might have happened "if".


NEWSFLASH
What might have happened, didn't happen.
If I was their Chief Pilot I'd make sure they taught northern navigation to my crews for at least a year.
Let's be honest, it wouldn't hurt First Air to modernize their fleet of 737s either.

Gino Under

Good plan there Gino.....modern aircraft never have accidents or incidents....now, where IS that pesky 777?
Illya

[Sidebar]

These are definitely the kind of pilots I want in the front end when my family is in the back.

Not me. I want pilots who can stay on course flying my family.

[Redneck_pilot86]

How much gas did they actually have? I heard somewhere enough to reach Goose Bay, was that their alternate? Did they still have enough fuel to reach their alternate if they missed in Iqaluit?

[Illya Kuryakin]

These are definitely the kind of pilots I want in the front end when my family is in the back.

Not me. I want pilots who can stay on course flying my family.

And way over your head that went.....ZING!
Illya

[co-joe]

just like frozen solid I want to know why they were off course?

On a 636 nm leg if they were 158nm off course that's only what 14 degrees? OK that's big, but still well within the realm for precession in some of the garbage equipment I've had the pleasure of sitting behind.

So what are First Air's cockpits like on the 73? What are they relying on for navigation? Where is the UNS getting its nav data from?

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-p ... 735441.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-p ... 608756.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-p ... 557361.jpg

There is not much to help with situational awareness in terms of recent technology in these pictures.

[Meatservo]

It's been good enough to get people where they need to go for several decades. It hasn't suddenly stopped working.

[Illya Kuryakin]

It's been good enough to get people where they need to go for several decades. It hasn't suddenly stopped working.

Hell mate, DC3s are still getting people where they want to go.....it ain't the age of the bird.
Illya

[linecrew]

It's been good enough to get people where they need to go for several decades. It hasn't suddenly stopped working.

Hell mate, DC3s are still getting people where they want to go.....it ain't the age of the bird.
Illya

I gotta agree with these statements. I'm not seeing the correlation between getting lost and the age of the aircraft. The same type has been flogging the North for a very long time.

The existence of more modern nav equipment shouldn't negate the accuracy of what was previously successfully and safely utilized.

[CpnCrunch]

I gotta agree with these statements. I'm not seeing the correlation between getting lost and the age of the aircraft. The same type has been flogging the North for a very long time.

The existence of more modern nav equipment shouldn't negate the accuracy of what was previously successfully and safely utilized.

Are you saying that nobody got lost in the days before GPS?

Maybe the correlation is the equipment rather than the age of the plane. Even Harbour Air has moving map GPSs in their old planes, but you'd have to be pretty brain damaged to get lost on the routes they fly.

[Gino Under]

Ilya (not the one from UNCLE)

Having just re-read a number of your posts I realize the main theme of your commentaries are nothing more than "smart Alec" opinions with not much else on offer.

That said, your remarks on the relationship between the modernization of First Air's fleet and MH370, a B777, clearly indicate an inability, on your part, to understand the reference to a gross navigation error contributed to, in part, by antiquated equipment with antiquated navigation capability unlike the latest 3rd generation of airliners.

Good enough is nothing more than settling for something a lot less when better is available and has been for decades. Translation? More accurate options are out there...why not use them?

On a separate note, this is the jet age. We shouldn't even be using DC-3s in any commercial operation.
But that, of course, is nothing more than a personal opinion.

Gino Under