First Air off course

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Donald
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Re: First Air off course

Post by Donald »

co-joe wrote:
Donald wrote:...
As long as the correct waypoints are entered, and you are coupled with the FMS, the aircraft will track from A to B on the magenta line.

Switching from MAG to TRUE or vice-versa will just change the track headings.
The magenta line on the non existent Multi Function Display/ Wx radar?
I knew it had UNS's, didn't realize it was lacking an MFD.

Still pretty simple to double check your waypoint entry and keep an eye on the x-track error.
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Eric Janson
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Re: First Air off course

Post by Eric Janson »

It doesn't matter if you are flying VOR/ADF or have a moving map display with GPS in front of you as long as you:-

- Understand the information displayed.
- Understand how to use what you have correctly.
- Understand what the limitations are.

Increasing the complexity of your cockpit brings a whole new set of issues with it. It isn't some magical solution.

The important thing to remember when using a Computer:-

Garbage in = Garbage out

I've seen a lot of map shifts over the years - always on systems without a GPS input.

Incorrect figures/incorrect waypoints/transposed numbers happen all the time. The more data you need to enter the greater the chance of making a mistake.

Most companies will have one Pilot enter the data and the other check the accuracy of what has been inserted.

My company does a lot of transatlantic flying and there are additional procedures and checks that have to be done. We also use a plotting chart.
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1&2SpooledUp
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Re: First Air off course

Post by 1&2SpooledUp »

Eric Janson wrote:It doesn't matter if you are flying VOR/ADF or have a moving map display with GPS in front of you as long as you:-

- Understand the information displayed.
- Understand how to use what you have correctly.
- Understand what the limitations are.

Increasing the complexity of your cockpit brings a whole new set of issues with it. It isn't some magical solution.

The important thing to remember when using a Computer:-

Garbage in = Garbage out

I've seen a lot of map shifts over the years - always on systems without a GPS input.

Incorrect figures/incorrect waypoints/transposed numbers happen all the time. The more data you need to enter the greater the chance of making a mistake.

Most companies will have one Pilot enter the data and the other check the accuracy of what has been inserted.

My company does a lot of transatlantic flying and there are additional procedures and checks that have to be done. We also use a plotting chart.
Totally agree, but having the MFD greatly enhances situational awareness and allows you to get the full mental picture and increases the chance of picking up on an incorrectly entered way point ten fold. These guys fly the same routes over and over so complacency might be a factor....
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CpnCrunch
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Re: First Air off course

Post by CpnCrunch »

The "us old farts could navigate with a vacuum tube up our arse" line of argument favoured by many avcanada posters is problematic for a number of reasons:

- Back in the stone age, you old farts tended to get lost and hit the ground quite a lot
- Evidence shows that technology such as TAWS significantly reduces accidents (not sure if a moving map will prevent an accident, but it will at least prevent you getting lost)

If I'm flying in the back of a plane with 100 other people that's about to do a hold for snow removal, followed by missed approach in zero visibility, back to the hold waiting for the weather to improve, followed by a second approach (as I was recently on Air Canada), I'm quite glad that they've got at least 1990s technology up front, and are incredibly well trained and professional.
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frozen solid
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Re: First Air off course

Post by frozen solid »

Well this particular plane didn't hit the ground, so I guess it doesn't matter how many vacuum tubes were up their butts or what kind of TAWS may or may not have been installed.

Hey, there wouldn't be any talk of older pilots' greater competency at navigating if it wasn't for the equally vocal group who figure that a gross navigational error can't possibly be blamed on the poor flight crew if they weren't festooned by a caring company with the latest picture-drawing cartoon-o-vision in the cockpit because this is what it takes for some people to avoid getting lost, which by the way was just as unforgivable before they invented GPS as it was after. Some guys here sound like they could tell their wife with a straight face that they wound up at some other girl's house after the bar because they don't have an iPhone with google maps. And it's her fault for not buying them one.

We're not talking about a LF range and a dotty ADF here. We're talking about a plane equipped with GPS, VHF and ADF. The screens are nice, but if you are an ATP and you can't find your way around with what was onboard that plane, you are an idiot.

Personally I don't think anyone was "lost". I think at worst, no-one checked their position for a long time, or a waypoint was entered wrong, or something was broken and wasn't cross-checked with some other instrument. It brings to mind the saying that if you don't care where you are, then you're not lost.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: First Air off course

Post by CpnCrunch »

frozen solid wrote:Well this particular plane didn't hit the ground, so I guess it doesn't matter how many vacuum tubes were up their butts or what kind of TAWS may or may not have been installed.
Well the other plane hit the ground and didn't have TAWS, so my comment was referring to that as well.
Hey, there wouldn't be any talk of older pilots' greater competency at navigating if it wasn't for the equally vocal group who figure that a gross navigational error can't possibly be blamed on the poor flight crew if they weren't festooned by a caring company with the latest picture-drawing cartoon-o-vision in the cockpit because this is what it takes for some people to avoid getting lost, which by the way was just as unforgivable before they invented GPS as it was after. Some guys here sound like they could tell their wife with a straight face that they wound up at some other girl's house after the bar because they don't have an iPhone with google maps. And it's her fault for not buying them one.
I'm not saying I rely on gizmos myself. A while ago I managed to navigate for 2.5hrs at night to a bunch of places I've never been to with no navigational equipment other than a compass and a line on a map, and it worked out fine.

I think the point I'm making is that not all the pilots at your company will be the sharpest tools in the box. Or at least, some of them might have the occasional bad day. You might say that First Air employs bunch of "idiots" (to use the correct avcanada terminology), but I don't think that's likely. I suspect if you look at Westjet or Air Canada you would find the occasional error made by someone after a bad night's sleep or a fight with his wife. The gee-whiz technology is there there to help keep occasionally fallible pilots from getting lost and hitting the ground. GPS moving maps have made getting lost a thing of the past. TAWS has made CFIT a thing of the past. Synthetic vision will likely make crashes after botched instrument approaches a thing of the past.
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frozen solid
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Re: First Air off course

Post by frozen solid »

I'm not calling First Air pilots "idiots". I'm not going to continue this discussion if you try to put words in my mouth. I already said multiple times, we DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

But if you plow a shittier furrow than everybody else who has the same tractor as you do, and then blame it on not having a new tractor, it's not the tractor's fault: you're a bad farmer.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: First Air off course

Post by CpnCrunch »

frozen solid wrote:I'm not calling First Air pilots "idiots". I'm not going to continue this discussion if you try to put words in my mouth. I already said multiple times, we DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
No, I didn't mean to say you did. However that is usually the word that is used on this forum when a pilot forgets to lower the gear or whatever.
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frozen solid
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Re: First Air off course

Post by frozen solid »

I can basically sum up the point I'm trying to make here. A plane went off course for reasons we don't know. Some guys have the opinion that it wouldn't have happened if they had been equipped with a moving-map or whatever, and therefore it's the company's fault the aircraft went off course. That is an unproveable argument because we don't know what happened, and my point is that anyone with more than a recreational pilot's permit should be able to fly that route with the equipment that was in that plane, IF the equipment was functioning properly, AND if the pilots were using it. They DO NOT deserve a free pass because they didn't have this year's electronics. It's possible they might deserve a free pass because of some other reason, but I can't figure out what that might be because we don't know anything.
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