MOA2

[Bede]

Come on guys. I have a real hard time believing that the goal of the Encore MEC was to ‘pee in the pool’ and make it as unappealing as possible for mainline guys to want the job. Are they a bunch of evil villains sitting around twisting their moustaches in delight at the result of this agreement? This strikes me more as a bunch of angry senior mainline guys wanting to lash out at the world any way they can.. yet again, pilots can’t play nice.

I don't think that the Encore MEC are evil villains. They were in a difficult position and looked out for their members first, which is their right. Unfortunately it came at the expense of WJ pilots bumping down. By their actions, the Encore MEC and WJ effectively repudiated the PTA. All that has to happen is the WJ MEC accept the repudiation and we go our separate ways. No need to cancel the PTA and lock in every one's seniority.

It's really too bad. I was the PTA's biggest supporter, but it has to go both ways.

[citizenbanana]

And this is why different bargaining units shouldn't share a seniority list. There is a reason nobody else does it this way.

[Yycjetdriver]

And this is why different bargaining units shouldn't share a seniority list. There is a reason nobody else does it this way.

+1

[JoeyBarton]

A mainline guy bumping down to Encore has a pay or block protection or falls right into the 50h CBA at encore?
If so this shows why your PTA has never been a good idea with 2 different bargaining units...

[FlyAlberta]

.

[ALPApolicy]

You never go wrong if you follow ALPA policy. Selling the seniority of your own bargaining unit members, regardless of the perceived morality of your intentions, was always going to end up somewhere undesirable.

No one saw mass layoffs looming when the PTA vote was conducted a mere FOUR MONTHS AGO! But that’s why ALPA has had a policy in place for so many years that specifies that seniority is based on date of hire at the company you are working at.

So now we see the creation of a “B” Scale at Encore. All employees are not equal. OTS Encore employees are more equal than WJ pilots bumping into Encore (per the MOA 2 pay provisions) in accordance with the PTA. That is really funny because Encore pilots flowing into WJ are more equal than OTS WJ pilots (per their super-seniority) in accordance with the One List.

Well done.

[Impact]

Well, to all those who pushed for and supported the one list concept, I hate to say "I told you so", but.......

[FlyingMonkey]

If mainline pilots do not like the WAWCON at Encore and the MOA2, they are not forced into a position at Encore. So take the layoff and go on EI. Simple as that. The Encore MEC fought and kept 150 more Encore positions available which are all going to Mainline pilots IF they want them. Nobody is forcing you into Encore! I’m going to lose my job at Encore to a 737 pilot, that’s what I agreed to and I’m not going to piss and moan about it because that’s what is fair. What were you 737 pilots expecting? The same WAWCON as the 737 when you bump down to Encore?

I’m sure your MEC is doing their best to mitigate as many layoffs as they can. Our MEC at Encore did the same, job well done.

[Yycjetdriver]

If mainline pilots do not like the WAWCON at Encore and the MOA2, they are not forced into a position at Encore. So take the layoff and go on EI. Simple as that. The Encore MEC fought and kept 150 more Encore positions available which are all going to Mainline pilots IF they want them. Nobody is forcing you into Encore! I’m going to lose my job at Encore to a 737 pilot, that’s what I agreed to and I’m not going to piss and moan about it because that’s what is fair. What were you 737 pilots expecting? The same WAWCON as the 737 when you bump down to Encore?

I’m sure your MEC is doing their best to mitigate as many layoffs as they can. Our MEC at Encore did the same, job well done.

When has any mainline pilot said they expect mainline wawcon when bumping into Encore??

There’s a big difference between agreeing to a PTA with bump down provisions then when about to exercise those provisions the group on the other end of the agreement changes the conditions and you have no say or ability to do anything about it.
It’s a dumb comment to insist mainline pilots expected to have mainline wages, they just didn’t expect the significant cut in WAWCON to be significantly cut further at the last minute.
Job not well done, the jobs saved have become terrible and they most likely lost their biggest benefit on top of that (PTA).

[altiplano]

Perhaps best thing could be for pilots to structure the reduction/moves to trigger every course possible. Certainly slows the layoffs and costs the company money and productivity.

Perhaps they rethink the numbers when they see what 100s of courses down and back are going to take?

[George Taylor]

No one is expecting 737 wages in the Dash. Don’t be stupid. If you can’t see changing the playing field so late in the game, and making the conditions so unattractive is not bargaining in good faith, well I can’t debate with you. The unintended consequence of protecting your own will be the death of the PTA.

[FlyingMonkey]

Look what is happening around you?? Are you blind. Airlines are crumbling around the world.
What kind of deal did you expect? You think you can get water from a stone? The idea that these 150 extra jobs at Encore is a ploy or a tactic by the company to undermine the pilot group is just ridiculous. You know how much it’s going to cost the company to train everyone on the Q?? You think the company wants/need to be spending money on training right now?? Use your brain and step back and look at this from a larger scope.

[Impact]

George, as much as I agree with you, the concept of "unintentional consequences" doesn't apply in this case. One could absolutely see where this was heading. There were some of us that were screaming that the one list wouldn't work. You need to ask yourselves, through honest self reflection, why you decided not to listen to the people who've went through a downturn or two in their lives, and have seen how pilots act when self preservation is the only thing on ones mind.

How much time, effort, money, and resources have been poured into this f***ing debacle we call "the one list"? Could have just had Encore flow to BOTL of mainline, no bump down, and be done with it. Simple. Do the same thing that every other carrier has done for decades.

Now, you guys will spend the next 5 years bitching about who got screwed in the Covid downturn. Enjoy.

[Yycjetdriver]

Look what is happening around you?? Are you blind. Airlines are crumbling around the world.
What kind of deal did you expect? You think you can get water from a stone? The idea that these 150 extra jobs at Encore is a ploy or a tactic by the company to undermine the pilot group is just ridiculous. You know how much it’s going to cost the company to train everyone on the Q?? You think the company wants/need to be spending money on training right now?? Use your brain and step back and look at this from a larger scope.

It doesn’t matter if training all new Q pilots is what the company needs/wants, its what they negotiated in order to help them recruit pilots while being able get away with terrible WAWCON’s for years at Encore. Put down the koolaid.

[DirtyDashDriver]

You know how much it’s going to cost the company to train everyone on the Q?? You think the company wants/need to be spending money on training right now?? Use your brain and step back and look at this from a larger scope.

No, the company doesn't want to spend money on training right now, but that is exactly what was agreed to in the PTA. It was agreed that we Encore guys get to flow up and that the mainline guys get to bump down. The cost of a bump down was factored into the agreement by not having a long-term pay scale and other considerations. I don't consider the WACON's to be horrific at Encore, but they are less than our comparators because of the PTA.

You need to ask yourselves, through honest self reflection, why you decided not to listen to the people who've went through a downturn or two in their lives

Lot's of Encore pilots are at Encore because of previous downturns. Lot's of mainline pilots are near the bottom of the list for the same reason. I've been through two or three downturns and saw value in the PTA from my perspective and that of a mainline pilot. My self-reflection says that it's not the PTA that was the problem, but that there were not enough protections built-in for both bargaining units regarding flow and bump downs.

Could have just had Encore flow to BOTL of mainline, no bump down, and be done with it.

Could have, but that's well-worn ground that isn't going to be easily fixed as I would consider it likely that cancelling the PTA would require that all pilots keep their current spot, so it won't help in the short-to-medium term.

The problem with the one list is not necessarily that it exists, but that both bargaining units can change the working and pay conditions of pilots affected at the other without appropriate input from the other group. In this case, mainline pilots now have to accept lower WACON's to come to Encore, which is unacceptable, despite understanding why it likely happened. The reverse case, however unlikely, is possible too.

The fix is not to cancel the PTA, as that is ultimately what saves a few mainline jobs right now and will again when this all happens in another 10 to 12 years. Perhaps it's to allow both bargaining units a say in their collective future with flows and bump downs by either diluting certain votes (i.e., those affecting wages) with weighted input from the other bargaining unit or by merging the MEC's.

[jjj]

The MOA did not save 150 jobs.

The fleet plan moving forward at reduced capacity always included the Q.

Way to go.

JJJ

[Impact]

DirtyDashDriver, I have to disagree. What we see now is a situation where instead of ripping off the bandage and suturing the wound, some people want to keep piling on the bandaids with new terms/conditions/negotiations. It becomes untenable. Why these people want to do that, I'm unsure. I do however think they lack the humility to admit they were wrong, and are now doubling down to save face.

As George Taylor mentioned, unintended consequences. From my point of view however, these consequences are/were entirely foreseeable.

There's something to be said about the "keep it simple" method. Everybody knows the rules. Everybody plays by the rules. Don't change the rules. Easy, predictable, fair. The onelist wasn't predictable since it was an industry outlier. We are now paying the price.

Once again, enjoy.

[jjj]

To address a comment from above about the cautionary note to beware cancelling the one list because of the whipsaw threat with RJs.

Here’s how that plays out.

You all get flushed.

Your MEC and your LEC get flushed.

Your bargaining unit is full up with ex 737 guys who want to go back there.

No shiny jets at Encore anytime soon.

The opportunity is always there to row in the same direction as we once were.

To all whom disparage the 737 drivers from Encore - let the outcome I posted or something similar percolate in your minds as a possibility.

Be kind to each other and always play the long game in Aviation.

[Red1]

I agree with Stratopaused ... the Encore MEC did exactly what any MEC should do right now...try and protect jobs. In fact its what the mainline MEC should be trying to do as well .. what the hell is the point of laying off 1700 pilots, when you could have easily cut that number in half or a third by following Encore's lead on the MMG. Somehow the rest of the industry figured it out.. and don't give me this god damn hold the line crap because it wont matter one iota when your on the street for the next 2 years.

[Checklist]

Jesus Christ, you guys are complete narcissists if you think the primary factor in everyone's decision-making is how it affects you. Under the current circumstances, I don't think anyone is looking for ways to screw anyone else, they're just trying to keep their heads above water.

The decision was already made when all parties signed the PTA. We’re just asking for follow through.

[ALPApolicy]

I agree with Stratopaused ... the Encore MEC did exactly what any MEC should do right now...try and protect jobs. In fact its what the mainline MEC should be trying to do as well .. what the hell is the point of laying off 1700 pilots, when you could have easily cut that number in half or a third by following Encore's lead on the MMG. Somehow the rest of the industry figured it out.. and don't give me this god damn hold the line crap because it wont matter one iota when your on the street for the next 2 years.

Explain to me how existing Encore pilots will be treated better ($625 extra per month) than Encore pilots who will bump from WestJet? Oh wait, the Encore MEC did what it was supposed to do, it looked out for the interests of its existing members (NOT its future members), unlike the WJ MEC who sold out the seniority of some of its existing members in favor of its future members.

Got it.

Imagine if Q400 pilots were WJ pilots and Encore did not exist. Does anyone think the MEC would have given extra money to them and not to the 737/787 pilots?

[FlyingMonkey]

Jesus Christ, you guys are complete narcissists if you think the primary factor in everyone's decision-making is how it affects you. Under the current circumstances, I don't think anyone is looking for ways to screw anyone else, they're just trying to keep their heads above water.

The decision was already made when all parties signed the PTA. We’re just asking for follow through.

Could you please explain what is not being followed through?

[FlyingMonkey]

I agree with Stratopaused ... the Encore MEC did exactly what any MEC should do right now...try and protect jobs. In fact its what the mainline MEC should be trying to do as well .. what the hell is the point of laying off 1700 pilots, when you could have easily cut that number in half or a third by following Encore's lead on the MMG. Somehow the rest of the industry figured it out.. and don't give me this god damn hold the line crap because it wont matter one iota when your on the street for the next 2 years.

Explain to me how existing Encore pilots will be treated better ($625 extra per month) than Encore pilots who will bump from WestJet? Oh wait, the Encore MEC did what it was supposed to do, it looked out for the interests of its existing members (NOT its future members), unlike the WJ MEC who sold out the seniority of some of its existing members in favor of its future members.

Got it.

In return for this sold out seniority of some of it’s members you got the opportunity to take one of the 293 jobs available at Encore right now instead of unemployment. You want to make the argument for EI over Encore? I’m all ears.

The $625 that we at Encore are going to receive is compensation for the fact that it may likely be years before we ever flow to the jet now and before that happens all the 737 will be recalled to their spots at mainline making considerable more money than Encore pilots well before that happens.

The glass isn’t always half empty. The ability to bump me out of my position at Encore is what is fair and I am not complaining about it. What bothers me is when guys are disrespectful and unappreciative to the fact that there are situations much worse than what is being offered at ENcore right now.

[ALPApolicy]

This $625 compensation that only goes to a select group of Encore employees, can you explain what compensation the laid off WJ pilots who bump into Encore get? Why don’t they get $625? They are not coming as beggars, with cap in hand. They agreed to sell out the seniority of their fellow bargaining unit members in return for equal treatment on a combined list. Now we find out that the Encore pilots have decided that they (laid off WJ pilots) should be treated differently than themselves.

That might have consequences.

[Gear Jerker]

This $625 compensation that only goes to a select group of Encore employees, can you explain what compensation the laid off WJ pilots who bump into Encore get? Why don’t they get $625? They are not coming as beggars, with cap in hand. They agreed to sell out the seniority of their fellow bargaining unit members in return for equal treatment on a combined list. Now we find out that the Encore pilots have decided that they (laid off WJ pilots) should be treated differently than themselves.

That might have consequences.

The $625 was negotiated in lieu of REIP, which is a flow penalty the company owes Encore pilots each year if they flow less than 70 pilots. WJ pilots aren't eligible for REIP. Simple as that.

Are the pitchforkers really sure that they aren't simply really unhappy with the current realities of the world, as we all are, and the Encore MEC is a scapegoat?

Didnt the Encore MEC do exactly what it's supposed to; follow the mandate of its members and execute it the best it possibly can? And by the way, the mandate was to save jobs. The negotiation of MOA2 preserved 25% more jobs.

Call me naive, but I would prefer reduced pay til December 31, allowing more of my colleagues staying employed, while also having a career to return to at the end.

Perhaps if your MEC would have started negotiating layoff mitigation prior to the reduction bid close, your frustration would be directed where it belongs.