Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

[pelmet]

Another bad idea is brake application while the tailwheel is still airborne on a wheel landing. Perhaps it can be useful in certain rare situations by certain skilled pilots but I tried it once to make a taxiway and fortunately got away scratch-free with a good lesson.

And yet this is likely aircraft dependent as well... I regularly apply brakes with the tail up on a wheel landing in the RV-6. I find with that technique I can more consistently get the shortest landing distance when I need it.

I've only semi-groundlooped once, on an excessively hot day and I was tired and in a hurry to get back to the hangar and some shade. I was a little fast on landing and still wanted to make my turnoff. I started to turn towards the taxiway where I usually do and immediately realized I was still to fast for that and tried to correct, but by that point I was *just* beyond the point of recovery. All I could do was hold on for the ride and do my best to widen the turn (thankfully there are laaaaarge runways at my home airport). I held opposite controls, and as the turn sped up fed in more brake to both wheels and ended up doing a "Tokyo Drift" around to a stop... all three wheels stayed on the ground but the mains were sliding sideways at the end. Still on the runway but facing mostly up the taxiway.

That would make you one of the “skilled pilots” I was referring to.

[AirFrame]

That would make you one of the “skilled pilots” I was referring to.

I suppose that's possible, but I really don't think so... Just over 700 hours total at this point, and while ~650 of them are tailwheel, and ~400 of them have been in the -6, I've been doing this from the beginning. It's just a balancing act, braking force vs. downforce available from the elevator. When you run out of elevator, stop braking. Maybe people in these incidents forget that and can't get off the brakes fast enough? Or have significantly less prop clearance than I do?

[pelmet]

That would make you one of the “skilled pilots” I was referring to.

I suppose that's possible, but I really don't think so... Just over 700 hours total at this point, and while ~650 of them are tailwheel, and ~400 of them have been in the -6, I've been doing this from the beginning. It's just a balancing act, braking force vs. downforce available from the elevator. When you run out of elevator, stop braking. Maybe people in these incidents forget that and can't get off the brakes fast enough? Or have significantly less prop clearance than I do?

Tailwheel hours paint only a part of the picture in terms of experience. Tailwheel takeoffs and landings are what have a lot of meaning. 650 hours should equate to plenty of experience. The 250 hours may have been multiple landings and takeoffs per hour.

Anyways...there are so many different versions out there and perhaps the RV-6 or your RV-6 does well when brake are applied with the tail still in the air. But I would caution anybody considering this to remember that there can be significant variations in the aircraft even from model to model of the same type, especially with non-certified aircraft. You mention prop clearance but there can be different lengths of prop on the same type. Different brake type or even adjustments can make a huge difference.

I flew a type that required enough force on the brakes from me during run-up(to prevent forward movement) that my legs were very tired after the run-up was complete. Yet the president of the type club that I talked to on the phone several times repeatedly told me about how grabby the brakes are on that type and about an incident where one aircraft flipped over while taxiing due to sudden brake application(I was able to confirm that incident). Faulty brakes can even grab at an inopportune moment.

Bottom line, perhaps brake can be safely applied on some taildraggers while the tail is airborne but you had better be extremely cautious about it and don't be surprised if you do get a surprise, for some unusual reason.

[pelmet]

C-FKTZ, a privately registered Piper PA-22-160, was conducting a flight from Villeneuve airport
(CZVL), AB to Fort McMurray airport (CYMM), AB with one pilot and one passenger onboard.
While landing on Runway 26, the aircraft veered sharply to right off the centerline and nosed over
coming to rest in the grass near Taxiway Golf causing substantial damage to the propeller and
main landing gear. There were no reported injuries.

[JVader]

C-FKTZ, a privately registered Piper PA-22-160, was conducting a flight from Villeneuve airport
(CZVL), AB to Fort McMurray airport (CYMM), AB with one pilot and one passenger onboard.
While landing on Runway 26, the aircraft veered sharply to right off the centerline and nosed over
coming to rest in the grass near Taxiway Golf causing substantial damage to the propeller and
main landing gear. There were no reported injuries.

Hey I’m famous! That was my plane, I had a runway excursion and the right main collapsed, which in turn ate my new prop. Always remember there’s a lot more to these accidents than can be captured in a small paragraph

[pelmet]

C-FKTZ, a privately registered Piper PA-22-160, was conducting a flight from Villeneuve airport
(CZVL), AB to Fort McMurray airport (CYMM), AB with one pilot and one passenger onboard.
While landing on Runway 26, the aircraft veered sharply to right off the centerline and nosed over
coming to rest in the grass near Taxiway Golf causing substantial damage to the propeller and
main landing gear. There were no reported injuries.

Hey I’m famous! That was my plane, I had a runway excursion and the right main collapsed, which in turn ate my new prop. Always remember there’s a lot more to these accidents than can be captured in a small paragraph

Sorry to hear about your occurrence. It would be interesting to know if you felt the TSB included all the pertinent information that was provided to them.

I know that at least one investigator reads these threads. If the information they are providing to the public is not including important items, especially info that could be useful in preventing future occurrences, perhaps they could be encouraged to provide more details.

The report certainly provides no information on the reason the aircraft ‘veered’, leaving the reader with little to learn from this.

[JVader]

C-FKTZ, a privately registered Piper PA-22-160, was conducting a flight from Villeneuve airport
(CZVL), AB to Fort McMurray airport (CYMM), AB with one pilot and one passenger onboard.
While landing on Runway 26, the aircraft veered sharply to right off the centerline and nosed over
coming to rest in the grass near Taxiway Golf causing substantial damage to the propeller and
main landing gear. There were no reported injuries.

Hey I’m famous! That was my plane, I had a runway excursion and the right main collapsed, which in turn ate my new prop. Always remember there’s a lot more to these accidents than can be captured in a small paragraph

Sorry to hear about your occurrence. It would be interesting to know if you felt the TSB included all the pertinent information that was provided to them.

I know that at least one investigator reads these threads. If the information they are providing to the public is not including important items, especially info that could be useful in preventing future occurrences, perhaps they could be encouraged to provide more details.

The report certainly provides no information on the reason the aircraft ‘veered’, leaving the reader with little to learn from this.

18018g26 landing rwy 26, +35C on landing, was a big crosswind for me and I didn’t bring my A game. Tried to go around but didn’t have the performance and I was light on the controls trying to avoid a ground loop. Decided to roll it out in the infield when the right main collapsed. The pacer is a squirrely bird, and it caught me on a day where I didn’t bring my best. I’ll rebuild and get back in the air.

[valleyboy]

The fire breathing tail draggers, wonder why it's called conventional gear. It would be interesting if we had stats to compare landing/Takeoff ground incidents between trike and tail wheel. Parameters from flair on landing to stable climb on departure. It might be an eye opener.

I think the reason why the tail wheeled has become such an issue is that with trike gear pilots basically stop flying them on touch down and relax while a tail dragger requires you to fly the aircraft until fully stopped.

When you learn to fly on conventional gear and fly every day on that type it becomes second nature. Ground loops turn into a tool and not by mistake. I can say that I have never accidentally ground looped an aircraft but have done it many times on purpose due to various mechanical failures, all low speed and controlled, especially with a twin engine aircraft. The outcome was always stopping 180 degrees to initial track.

Pretty simple philosophy which should hold true for all aircraft. "fly the F'n aeroplane" - we should never loose sight of the basics.

[AirFrame]

Sorry to hear about your occurrence. It would be interesting to know if you felt the TSB included all the pertinent information that was provided to them.

This looks like the narrative from a CADOR, which isn't written by the TSB. The TSB may feed something back in to the CADOR later on, but initially the report generally comes from NavCan. And no, they don't generally include all of the information.

[Dias]

From the title I thought this was going to be another Northstar BT-67 accident thread.

[pelmet]

18018g26 landing rwy 26, +35C on landing, was a big crosswind for me and I didn’t bring my A game. Tried to go around but didn’t have the performance and I was light on the controls trying to avoid a ground loop. Decided to roll it out in the infield when the right main collapsed. The pacer is a squirrely bird, and it caught me on a day where I didn’t bring my best. I’ll rebuild and get back in the air.

Gusting to 26 knots as a direct crosswind in a squirrely taildragger? Sounds like a decision-making problem not a skill problem. I would have been looking for alternatives or not departing in the first place to be honest.

Here is another one.....

C-FYLY, a privately registered Piper PA-12 Super Cruiser, was conducting a recreational flight
from Pitt Meadows (CYPK), BC to Hope (CYHE), BC with the pilot and 2 passengers on board.
During the take-off roll, the aircraft began to veer to the right. The pilot attempted to correct the turn
but the aircraft continued off the right side of the paved runway into the grass. The pilot attempted
to stop the aircraft and, after it crossed a ditch, the landing gear collapsed and the propeller struck
the ground. The pilot and passengers egressed from the aircraft and waited by the aircraft for
assistance. There were no injuries to the pilot or passengers. The aircraft was taken to a maintenance
facility where the extent of the damage will be assessed.

[pelmet]

The privately registered Cessna 180K, C-GYXX, was departing Drumheller (CEG4), AB regional
airport for a flight to Cooking Lake (CEZ3), AB. During the take-off roll, when the tail came up,
control was lost and the aircraft performed a ground loop, coming to rest inverted on the edge of
the runway. The two occupants were uninjured and able to exit the aircraft without assistance.
There was no fire and the ELT did not broadcast and was switched to the off position.

[Posthumane]

I also tend to apply some braking in my aircraft before the tail is on the ground. The tailwheel is so small and prone to shimmy that I it really doesn't like touching down at high speed, so I try to keep it up as long as possible (giggidy). As airframe said, it's a question of balancing the braking force with the elevator, and not letting the nose go down any further than the wheel landing attitude. Mind you, this is one of these aircraft where your legs are tired after holding the brakes for a run-up.

[pelmet]

I wonder if he had the PPonk landing gear attachment mod. It can reduce landing gear failures during groundloops....

"C-FFJE, a privately registered Cessna 170B was conducting a flight from Fort St. John/ North
Peace Regional (CYXJ), BC on Runway 12 bound for Fort Nelson/ Northern Rockies Regional
(CYYE), BC. The take off was aborted during the take-off roll due to the crosswind. As the aircraft
was coming to a stop the left landing gear collapsed and the aircraft came to rest on the left wing
tip. There was a small fuel spill that was contained but there was no post incident fire. There were
no injuries."

[pelmet]

I believe the Yukon can be tailwheel or tricycle gear.

"C-GTNZ, an Amateur-built amphibious Murphy Yukon, landed at Chilliwack (CYCW), BC. The
airplane exited the runway on the right side into the grass when the left main wheel brake failed.
The Airport Manager responded and arranged for the aircraft to be towed to the apron.
It was determined that the left side brake pads separated because they were excessively worn
which allowed the brake caliper piston to move out of its position and for brake fluid to leak onto
the disk."

[J31]

I believe the Yukon can be tailwheel or tricycle gear.

"C-GTNZ, an Amateur-built amphibious Murphy Yukon, landed at Chilliwack (CYCW), BC. The
airplane exited the runway on the right side into the grass when the left main wheel brake failed.
The Airport Manager responded and arranged for the aircraft to be towed to the apron.
It was determined that the left side brake pads separated because they were excessively worn
which allowed the brake caliper piston to move out of its position and for brake fluid to leak onto
the disk."

Wow! I would say...NO maintenance!

[pelmet]

Summary:
C-GAUT, a Bellanca 7GCBC operated by Prairie Aviation Training Center, was conducting a solo
cross country flight from Three Hills, AB (CEN3) and returning to CEN3 with one pilot on board.
The wind conditions at the time of the landing were estimated to be approximately 15 knots 70
degrees off of runway heading. During the landing roll, the pilot was unable to maintain directional
control of the aircraft and the aircraft entered a ground loop, coming to rest in a nose down position
off of the side of the runway. The pilot was not injured. The aircraft sustained damage to the right
wingtip, right aileron and aileron spade, right main landing gear, propeller and cowl.

[pelmet]

CF-PHA, a privately registered Volmer Jensen Amphibian VJ 22, was conducting circuits at Victoria
Intl (CYYJ), BC with only the pilot on board. On landing, the aircraft bounced and on the second
contact, directional control was lost and the airplane exited the side of the runway. The right wing
struck a distance remaining sign which was knocked off of its base. The pilot was not injured but
the aircraft sustained substantial damage. Aircraft Rescue and Firefighting attended the scene and
assisted in moving the aircraft.

The airplane will be assessed to determine the extent of the damage.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=volmer+j ... =609&dpr=1

[pelmet]

C-FFRB, a Found Aircraft Canada FBA-2C1 operated by Hoarfrost River Huskies Ltd., was on a
maintenance flight from Hay River (CYHY), NT to Fort Nelson (CYYE), BC with only the pilot on
board. During the landing roll in CYYE, the pilot experienced some tail wheel shimmy, and during
the attempted control of the shimmy, directional control of the aircraft was lost, and a low speed
ground loop ensued. The aircraft came to a rest in a snowbank beside the runway. There were no
injuries, and the aircraft sustained minor damage.

[pelmet]

C-FRAL, a privately operated Corben Baby Ace homebuilt aircraft, was conducting a local flight
from Summerside Airport (CYSU), PE. Upon landing on runway 23 at CYSU, the pilot planned to
stop as short as possible so as to be able to quickly vacate the runway for another inbound aircraft.
The pilot unintentionally applied asymmetric heel brakes and the tail-wheel aircraft yawed nose left
at a rate that could not be arrested. The rapid yaw caused the landing gear to skid on the runway,
and the right wing tip struck the runway surface. The subsequent return motion in the roll direction
caused the left wing tip to also strike the runway, and the aircraft then nosed over causing a
propeller strike and sudden engine stoppage. The aircraft came to rest about 30 feet to the left of
the center of the runway. The pilot was the sole occupant, and egressed the aircraft without injury.
The winds were from approximately 210 degrees magnetic at less than 10 knots windspeed.
The aircraft sustained major damage, with a right-hand flying wire that failed in tension, substantial
damage to the right wing tip, and the destruction of the propeller.

[pelmet]

Don't know the weather or winds that day, but there is no doubt that a sudden airport closure can leave you with unpalatable options....

C-GPRB, a privately registered Pitts S1S (Pitts Special), was conducting a local aerobatic flight
from Vernon (CYVK) BC, with only the pilot on board. During the flight, the runway at CYVK was
closed due to an airplane having landed gear up. The pilot diverted to Salmon Arm (CZAM) BC,
where, in a cross wind, the aircraft ground looped. The airplane departed the runway to the right,
nosed down and came to rest on the propeller, left main gear, and the left wing. The pilot released
himself from his harness and parachute system, and egressed. There were no injuries.
A maintenance company recovered the aircraft which was disassembled for ground transportation.
The initial inspection revealed that the left main landing gear was bent, the left-wing tip was
scraped, the propeller was fractured, and both wheel pants were damaged. Further examinations
will be conducted to determine the extent of the repairs that will be required.

[pelmet]

C-FDYB, a privately registered Globe GC-1B, was attempting to depart from a residential road in
vicinity of El Paso, Texas with only the pilot on board. The directional control of the airplane was
lost on takeoff and the airplane hit a fence and a rock wall. The airplane sustained substantial
damage to both wings. The pilot suffered serious injuries.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) of United States is conducting an investigation.
(NTSB reference number CEN22LA226).

[pelmet]

C-GBAZ, a privately registered Bellanca 8GCBC aircraft operated by the Air Cadet League of
Canada, was landing on the infield grass south of Runway 26 at the Brandon Muni (CYBR), MB
airport with the pilot and 1 passenger on board. During the landing roll, the aircraft ran into a
puddle of water, nosed over, and came to rest in an inverted position. The pilot and passenger
were able to evacuate the aircraft without injury and were taken to a local hospital for observation,
as a precaution. The aircraft sustained substantial damage. The DND's Directorate of Flight Safety
is investigating.

It is nice to have walked a grass strip or to get a pirep before using it.

[pelmet]

Not a ground handling accident but thought I would include it anyways......

C-GGAP, a privately registered Piper PA-22 aircraft, with an instructor and student pilot onboard
was on the approach to land on Runway 09 at Stirling, Ontario (CPJ5). The instructor was the pilot
flying; as the aircraft approached the tree tops, the approach became unstable due to mechanical
turbulence and a reported tailwind. The instructor performed a go-around and brought the aircraft
around for a second approach, this time into the prevailing wind on Runway 27. The instructor
attempted to go-around again as it was determined the touchdown would be further down the
runway than expected. The instructor added full power for a go-around, the engine sputtered, and
lost power. The aircraft touched down on the remaining runway, went off the end of the runway,
down a slope, through a fence and into some trees. Both occupants exited the aircraft without
injury. The aircraft sustained substantial damage.

[pelmet]

C-GGOJ, an Acro Sport II aircraft, landed at Fergus Juergensen Field (CPG7), ON with a 10-15
knot 90 degree crosswind. During the landing roll the aircraft began to weathercock, the pilot was
unable to maintain control and the aircraft exited the right side of the runway into a wheat field. The
right wing contacted the wheat spinning the aircraft and collapsing the left main gear. The left lower
wing separated from aircraft and the fuselage broke near the lower left wing attachment. There
were also indications of a possible prop strike. The pilot was not injured.