Average flight time

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photofly
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Re: Average flight time

Post by photofly »

It doesn't say how far you have to have moved....
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the-minister31
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Re: Average flight time

Post by the-minister31 »

photofly wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:08 pm It doesn't say how far you have to have moved....
3 inches is enough for some!
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trey kule
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Re: Average flight time

Post by trey kule »

Start. Roll forward. Brake check…then check for oil pressure. There is learnin’ to be done.

I like it. No need to roll forward. Only takes a minute or three to round up a .1. Never…never, will be in the student’sfavour.
And no one can doubt that a lot of learning takes place…..
The student can learn that CARs are subject to a TC/ FTU friendly interpretation…though they will never see a written exam question that defines flight time as Hobbs time.
The student will come to understand that for an FTU to charge a couple of extra minutes on every flight translates into thousands of $$ a year in extra revenue….and its all allowed by a TC variance. Yea TC! Selective CARS compliance.

Is 1/8 of a mile pretty much the same as 1/4 mile? Is 150 feet pretty much the same as 200 feet?
I think there is a huge opportunity for all pilots to jump on the bandwagon. Close apparently now counts for CARS….

Lets take it up a notch. See how we can all make suggestion for pretty much the same….
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photofly
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Re: Average flight time

Post by photofly »

With respect, you’re being extremely silly.

If the CARs say that flight time begins when the plane first moves, then that’s when it begins. No arguments. If it was critical to our lords and masters at TC (and the ICAO, for that matter) that it has to move by some minimum amount, or that checks have to be complete before it moves, for the flight to begin, they should write the rules to say so. They’ve had enough chances.

Charges: There’s no regulation that an FTU can only charge for flight time. FTUs can charge however they please, as long as they’re transparent about it. If an FTU’s policy is to charge for engine time, irrespective of whether the aircraft moves or not, then there’s nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

As for your comments about 1/4 mile being the same as 1/8 mile - I have no idea what you’re talking about.
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trey kule
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Re: Average flight time

Post by trey kule »

I was, in fact, attempting silliness.

But on a serious note, FTUs can charge whatever they like.

But Hobbs time is not flight time unless you let-the a/c start moving at start, and the engine stops as the a/c stops on arrival.
Calling it flight time when it is not is a very clear case of non compliance with CARS if the time is being logged and credited for a license or rating.
And that really is the crux of my argument.

The cost issue was brought up because that is , in my opinion, the rationale behind this.

So yes. An FTU can charge however they like. But they should not be charging Hobbs time and letting students think that is flight time.

We tend to think of ppls, but sitting in a twin after startup at about $6.00 a minute, and waiting for engine warm up, radio work etc. Before the plane moves, and at the end stopping, letting the eng temps stabilize and running through shutdown procedures is expensive,

Good to let engines warm up a bit on a start.

As to 1/8 -1/4 mile and 150/200 feet. Think about it for a bit.
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photofly
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Re: Average flight time

Post by photofly »

Seems to me that flight schools are going to charge Hobbs time regardless because it’s easily audited and independently verifiable. It’s a “cost” issue in so far as it’s an issue to deal with people claiming they sat on the ramp for 12 minutes with the engine running for no good reason, and now you have to start checking logbooks which aren’t written up until later that day, or week or month, to see what the “flight time” is.

If you want to fit some sophisticated motion sensors that independently start ticking when the plane begins to move, then you’d have a reasonable way independently to determine and audit “flight” time, and then there’d be an argument for charging for it, specifically.

Given that you’re going to pay for engine time it makes sense to move the aircraft right away - at least you can legally log the time.

Meanwhile If you want to campaign to shorten logged flights by the average seventeen seconds between the engine start and a brake check, I won’t stop you.
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trey kule
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Re: Average flight time

Post by trey kule »

Sophisticated motion sensors? You mean a basic GPS unit, right?

Not sure that start and immediately roll is a really good practice unless you are stealing the plane.


But fill your boots. TC is on your side on this issue. Regulations be damned.
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photofly
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Re: Average flight time

Post by photofly »

No GPS that I’ve seen provides a permanent record of at least the last flight time, that can be verified after the fact by dispatch staff or the next pilot. You can’t argue with a Hobbs meter. The number sticks around after shutdown.

Build and sell a motion sensing tamper-proof Hobbs meter to record flight time, or accept that charging by Hobbs time is sensible and not done to “cheat” poor students out of an extra few dollars per flight compared to some other, arbitrary standard of charging that exists only in your head.
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the-minister31
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Re: Average flight time

Post by the-minister31 »

As far as I know, most school use Hobbs time because pilots cheated... Or flat out forgot to note the time... It's for biling purposes only. If you pay for it, might as well log it. If the rules are clear from the start, I don't see why it would be a problem.

I've seen pilots log 3 minutes between Flight time and air time. And an air time of .5 when the aircraft was airborne for at least 45 minutes... Which was stupid because we see them from the office...
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trey kule
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Re: Average flight time

Post by trey kule »

You two have done a nice pivot.

I am sure that there were instances of students cheating.

But this simply ignores the fact that Hobbs time is not flight time.

And neither have you two have addressed that fact, except to claim equivalency, or to prevent cheating. Simple yes or no…Is logging Hobbs time as flight time in compliance with CARS?



Charge-by Hobbs time. No issue. But to claim it is flight time is false.and TC should not be allowing it.

As a last comment…then will let you two have the last word.

How are Hobbs meters checked for accuracy? Are they required to be calibrated periodically like a pitot-static system, or transponder. I understand they can be adjusted. Not sure if that is true, but how exactly does TC know they are accurate?
Change the regulations. But institutionalized acceptance ( or encouragement) of deviating from the CARS is wrong.

As to tracking. If cheating is an issue there are all sorts of tracking programs available to an FTU these days. Virtually all commercial operators use them.
Yes, it is a cost…but the solution to avoid those costs approved by TC is just wrong.


I have no dog in this fight. Just don’t like the arrogance of TC that they can ignore non compliance…or worse, encourage it.
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digits_
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Re: Average flight time

Post by digits_ »

trey kule wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:31 am Simple yes or no…Is logging Hobbs time as flight time in compliance with CARS?
If the first thing you do is roll a bit forward: yes.

If you don't do that: no.
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Re: Average flight time

Post by photofly »

trey kule wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:31 am
How are Hobbs meters checked for accuracy? Are they required to be calibrated periodically like a pitot-static system, or transponder. I understand they can be adjusted.
Ha ha ha. No, they absolutely can’t be adjusted. That would destroy the purpose of having one.

Honeywell make Hobbs brand hour meters; they’re quartz crystal controlled, accurate to 200ppm. That’s 0.7 seconds per hour.
Not sure if that is true, but how exactly does TC know they are accurate?
TC doesn’t know or care how you measure flight or air time. They simply must be measured. If you use a Hobbs meter, or some other method, that’s your choice. You are responsible for accurately noting the details.
Change the regulations. But institutionalized acceptance ( or encouragement) of deviating from the CARS is wrong.
Nobody is deviating from the CARs.
As to tracking. If cheating is an issue there are all sorts of tracking programs available to an FTU these days. Virtually all commercial operators use them.
Yes, it is a cost…but the solution to avoid those costs approved by TC is just wrong.
Tracking is easily done... with (guess what?) ... a Hobbs meter. It’s already installed, and therefore the zero cost solution. Again, use of a Hobbs meter is neither approved nor disapproved by TC. It’s an operator decision how to monitor times.
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Last edited by photofly on Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
the-minister31
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Re: Average flight time

Post by the-minister31 »

trey kule wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:31 am You two have done a nice pivot.

I am sure that there were instances of students cheating.

But this simply ignores the fact that Hobbs time is not flight time.

And neither have you two have addressed that fact, except to claim equivalency, or to prevent cheating. Simple yes or no…Is logging Hobbs time as flight time in compliance with CARS?



Charge-by Hobbs time. No issue. But to claim it is flight time is false.and TC should not be allowing it.

Change the regulations. But institutionalized acceptance ( or encouragement) of deviating from the CARS is wrong.

As to tracking. If cheating is an issue there are all sorts of tracking programs available to an FTU these days. Virtually all commercial operators use them.
Yes, it is a cost…but the solution to avoid those costs approved by TC is just wrong.


I have no dog in this fight. Just don’t like the arrogance of TC that they can ignore non compliance…or worse, encourage it.
the-minister31 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:05 am As far as I know, most school use Hobbs time because pilots cheated... Or flat out forgot to note the time... It's for biling purposes only.
All the schools I know log flight time (from OOOI) and charge hobbs. It's to the advantage of all student that those match, so they do. Your point of having a twin warming up at 6.00$/minutes is fair, then reposition for warm-up and run-up. At least you can log what you will be billed. You actually have way more of a case saying that most school charge more than what they log, but as you said, schools can charge whatever they want.

Yes there is "engine time", "start and stop time", etc. Are you arguing that when I note "start time" instead of "out time" suddenly my times are non-CARS compliant? Ok, then the only thing TC could do at this point is force schools to change their daily logs to OOOI instead of start, take-off, landing and shutdown. Problem solved, after a lot of useless paperwork to satisfy that "need".

The one thing I will give you is that it is possible that some instructors would think that engine time = flight time the way times are noted in flight schools. Is it true? No. Does it change anything? Not really.

Oh wow, I got way too much time on my hands haha
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Re: Average flight time

Post by Beefitarian »

But Hobbs time is not flight time unless you let-the a/c start moving at start, and the engine stops as the a/c stops on arrival.
Calling it flight time when it is not is a very clear case of non compliance with CARS if the time is being logged and credited for a license or rating.
I think the thousands of students that have logged that erroneous time to get licensed are safe.

Yesterday I just received the invoice for my February medical.

February 2020.
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Kejidog
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Re: Average flight time

Post by Kejidog »

Maybe in the guise of saving the student some money the flights are kept to one hour? I think at the cost of renting the students might balk at a higher bill for the extra .3-.5 hours? That could save them some $50-100 per? Just my thoughts. Personally I found a cheap under 30K 172 to do my PPL I could fly anytime I wanted and that some 20k it would have cost me in rentals was paid for with equity. And I owned a plane when I was done. Then I sold the plane for more than I paid for it and put that equity into my current 182. The OP’s mileage may vary though.
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