The "Yes" side will be full of regret

[JustaCanadian]

PML list won’t solve the issues. You can’t be paying pilots McDonald’s wages and expect to retain them.

Metro grocery workers have been on strike for a month, these guys make more than a jazz FO. No reason why starting rate for FO can’t be 50 per duty hour, considering the time spent away from home. Start compensating pilots properly and invest in your airline professionals.

[Curiousflyer]

PML had its day and proved to be unenforceable, just like flow. Jazz pilots will be much better off getting rid of flow from their contract and forcing to compete for pilots on salary and benefits alone. This will raise the bar for the entire pilot industry.

[Westerncanuck]

PML had its day and proved to be unenforceable, just like flow. Jazz pilots will be much better off getting rid of flow from their contract and forcing to compete for pilots on salary and benefits alone. This will raise the bar for the entire pilot industry.

Totally agree. Flow should be honoured for those who are on the property now and want to go to AC. After that, get rid of it. A distraction preventing from other gains for pilots that chose to stay at Jazz.

[Nick678]

PML had its day and proved to be unenforceable, just like flow. Jazz pilots will be much better off getting rid of flow from their contract and forcing to compete for pilots on salary and benefits alone. This will raise the bar for the entire pilot industry.

Totally agree. Flow should be honoured for those who are on the property now and want to go to AC. After that, get rid of it. A distraction preventing from other gains for pilots that chose to stay at Jazz.

There are Issues with this, if Air Canada wasn’t forced to take Jazz pilots it wouldn’t take a single one. There’s history of this already and it frustrated the pilot group. Jazz pay will never be AC pay based on the number of seats. We will always have pilots wanting to move over. That will not help the situation here and only help the green circle pilots who want more money.

I do hope this gets voted down and AC just buys jazz, put us on the bottom of AC’s Pilot list and we call it a “failed experiment with Canadian CPA’s”.

[RippleRock]

Don't ever forget that the people across the table from you use "burning platforms" with great efficacy. They will tell you your house is on fire, and that if you capitulate, there will be nothing to worry about.

DON'T BUY IT. It's a ruse to get you to agree to a substandard package. FULL STOP. They 100% need a reliable connector for feed, so Jazz isn't going anywhere.

Stand your ground, hold the line. Fear will undo you.




FWIW, CR (former CEO of AC) was quoted as saying "Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning". He revealed his playbook to all that day. They still use it.

[GIVCE!]

What a load of Hollywood Horse sh it. Everyone’s aware that the year 1 Fo raise is 50% right? And that’s still not good enough? You expect non ATPL rated pilots to be making 100,000k /year out of flight instruction or college? Shake your brains… that’s why Jazz is DIFFERENT than ALL other operators. The rest of the pay lifts are pretty lame, imo. But it is a marathon, not a sprint. This will NOT fix ANY issues at Jazz. But it’s more cash for everyone. What’s the problem? Now the NEXT offer, that will be interesting imo…. Good luck with your vote!

[M.Caribou]

Everyone’s aware that the year 1 Fo raise is 50% right? And that’s still not good enough?

50% of barely anything is still barely anything and then some.

[Fanblade]

What a load of Hollywood Horse sh it. Everyone’s aware that the year 1 Fo raise is 50% right? And that’s still not good enough? You expect non ATPL rated pilots to be making 100,000k /year out of flight instruction or college? Shake your brains… that’s why Jazz is DIFFERENT than ALL other operators. The rest of the pay lifts are pretty lame, imo. But it is a marathon, not a sprint. This will NOT fix ANY issues at Jazz. But it’s more cash for everyone. What’s the problem? Now the NEXT offer, that will be interesting imo…. Good luck with your vote!

Keep in mind that AC's strategy is to find the minimum $ amount needed to fix their attraction and retention issue.

Your unions job is to maximize the $ before allowing AC to fix their retention issue.

Allowing AC to simply keep offering slight increases until their issue is addressed means you are playing to the company strategy. You are allowing the company to keep tweaking until they find the minimum.

This is not my bun fight as I don't work at Jazz. However if I did work at Jazz I would want to maximize the current situation because it might be my only opportunity. You are in a locked in agreement for 12 more years.

The downside risk for Jazz pilots is they take their one opportunity and squander it on the minimum.

[truedude]

What a load of Hollywood Horse sh it. Everyone’s aware that the year 1 Fo raise is 50% right? And that’s still not good enough? You expect non ATPL rated pilots to be making 100,000k /year out of flight instruction or college? Shake your brains… that’s why Jazz is DIFFERENT than ALL other operators. The rest of the pay lifts are pretty lame, imo. But it is a marathon, not a sprint. This will NOT fix ANY issues at Jazz. But it’s more cash for everyone. What’s the problem? Now the NEXT offer, that will be interesting imo…. Good luck with your vote!

Keep in mind that AC's strategy is to find the minimum $ amount needed to fix their attraction and retention issue.

Your unions job is to maximize the $ before allowing AC to fix their retention issue.

Allowing AC to simply keep offering slight increases until their issue is addressed means you are playing to the company strategy. You are allowing the company to keep tweaking until they find the minimum.

This is not my bun fight as I don't work at Jazz. However if I did work at Jazz I would want to maximize the current situation because it might be my only opportunity. You are in a locked in agreement for 12 more years.

The downside risk for Jazz pilots is they take their one opportunity and squander it on the minimum.

If you AC pilots want to help, they can put back the language for tier 2 carriers they threw away a decade ago for absolutely nothing in return. That would put us on solid footing to fight these type of battles.

[Fanblade]

Instead of reducing flow why are they not discussing a PML list? could have avoided all the flow issues and would keep pilots at Jazz longer?

You need AC pilots to agree to that, since it is their list.

If only they were entering into negots….

AC pilots are not interested in keeping regional wages down with a PML carrot.

Nothing wrong with a flow or PML IMO. So long as it is not used as a wage replacement. AC has been trying to use it as a wage replacement since 2015.

[Fanblade]

What a load of Hollywood Horse sh it. Everyone’s aware that the year 1 Fo raise is 50% right? And that’s still not good enough? You expect non ATPL rated pilots to be making 100,000k /year out of flight instruction or college? Shake your brains… that’s why Jazz is DIFFERENT than ALL other operators. The rest of the pay lifts are pretty lame, imo. But it is a marathon, not a sprint. This will NOT fix ANY issues at Jazz. But it’s more cash for everyone. What’s the problem? Now the NEXT offer, that will be interesting imo…. Good luck with your vote!

Keep in mind that AC's strategy is to find the minimum $ amount needed to fix their attraction and retention issue.

Your unions job is to maximize the $ before allowing AC to fix their retention issue.

Allowing AC to simply keep offering slight increases until their issue is addressed means you are playing to the company strategy. You are allowing the company to keep tweaking until they find the minimum.

This is not my bun fight as I don't work at Jazz. However if I did work at Jazz I would want to maximize the current situation because it might be my only opportunity. You are in a locked in agreement for 12 more years.

The downside risk for Jazz pilots is they take their one opportunity and squander it on the minimum.

If you AC pilots want to help, they can put back the language for tier 2 carriers they threw away a decade ago for absolutely nothing in return. That would put us on solid footing to fight these type of battles.

Truedude,

I completely agree with you.

Unfortunately you guys are in a tough position. The leading edge of the spear with a locked in contract. Possibly one opportunity because of the locked in contract. And yes AC could decide to not come back to Jazz pilots and deal with mainline pilots first. Just keep dropping mainline routes to shore up regional routes. This isn't a go forward strategy. However only they know how long they are willing to endure it.

My comment would simply be don't make a decision with fear at the base.

I don't believe Jazz is going anywhere. Smaller yes. But still significant. AC cannot survive without a regional. If you don't have a deal Monday you will eventually get one. The only question is when. The sky won't fall if the vote on Monday is no.

12 years is a long time to live with a deal and wish you should have, would have, could have.

[GIVCE!]

What was the latest raise at west jet in %?
What was the latest raise(s) each at Porter in %?

[GIVCE!]

Ok. I’ll tell you.

24% over 4 years. Plus other gains to QOL, scope etc.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-05-26/

[truedude]

Keep in mind that AC's strategy is to find the minimum $ amount needed to fix their attraction and retention issue.

Your unions job is to maximize the $ before allowing AC to fix their retention issue.

Allowing AC to simply keep offering slight increases until their issue is addressed means you are playing to the company strategy. You are allowing the company to keep tweaking until they find the minimum.

This is not my bun fight as I don't work at Jazz. However if I did work at Jazz I would want to maximize the current situation because it might be my only opportunity. You are in a locked in agreement for 12 more years.

The downside risk for Jazz pilots is they take their one opportunity and squander it on the minimum.

If you AC pilots want to help, they can put back the language for tier 2 carriers they threw away a decade ago for absolutely nothing in return. That would put us on solid footing to fight these type of battles.

Truedude,

I completely agree with you.

Unfortunately you guys are in a tough position. The leading edge of the spear with a locked in contract. Possibly one opportunity because of the locked in contract. And yes AC could decide to not come back to Jazz pilots and deal with mainline pilots first. Just keep dropping mainline routes to shore up regional routes. This isn't a go forward strategy. However only they know how long they are willing to endure it.

My comment would simply be don't make a decision with fear at the base.

I don't believe Jazz is going anywhere. Smaller yes. But still significant. AC cannot survive without a regional. If you don't have a deal Monday you will eventually get one. The only question is when. The sky won't fall if the vote on Monday is no.

12 years is a long time to live with a deal and wish you should have, would have, could have.

We agree on nearly everything. I am just tired.

In 2010 we made very real gains, that included CR yelling at negots committee on a conference call, our own CEO calling is F%$king pirates, and having the balls to do semi legal job action. And how were we thanked. We spend the next few years having the rug torn out from under our feet by everyone in Canadian aviation. Westjet pilots that enthusiastically approved disgusting Encore working wages. AC pilots ripping up our exclusive tier 2 flying clause, for nothing. And now we have junior pilots who were still in Jr high, telling us we sold them and the industry out.

And now everyone is telling us we should burn rather significant gains because there might be another offer... for unity... to lead the way...

Will this solve Jazz's hiring and retention issues? In my opinion, no. So I think they will be back if they truly want to save summer.

AC needs to stop trying to think of the cheapest way forward, and realize that pilots are in limited supply, and those that can attract and hire the most will have planes in the sky, while everyone else looks at expensive static displays.

My 2 cents + frustration.

[GIVCE!]

+1000

[rookiepilot]

These guys get it. How its done.

https://financialpost.com/news/metro-st ... escalation

[Inverted2]

These guys get it. How its done.

https://financialpost.com/news/metro-st ... escalation

The difference is that they are unskilled grocery workers who could be replaced in a few days with Joe Schmo’s off the street. The problem here is we are losing experienced pilots and the ones they hire take time to train and most are years away from being a captain. Also we are NOT in a legal strike position. They don’t have to give us dick all since we are in a contract for 12 more years.

[cdnavater]

If you AC pilots want to help, they can put back the language for tier 2 carriers they threw away a decade ago for absolutely nothing in return. That would put us on solid footing to fight these type of battles.

Truedude,

I completely agree with you.

Unfortunately you guys are in a tough position. The leading edge of the spear with a locked in contract. Possibly one opportunity because of the locked in contract. And yes AC could decide to not come back to Jazz pilots and deal with mainline pilots first. Just keep dropping mainline routes to shore up regional routes. This isn't a go forward strategy. However only they know how long they are willing to endure it.

My comment would simply be don't make a decision with fear at the base.

I don't believe Jazz is going anywhere. Smaller yes. But still significant. AC cannot survive without a regional. If you don't have a deal Monday you will eventually get one. The only question is when. The sky won't fall if the vote on Monday is no.

12 years is a long time to live with a deal and wish you should have, would have, could have.

We agree on nearly everything. I am just tired.

In 2010 we made very real gains, that included CR yelling at negots committee on a conference call, our own CEO calling is F%$king pirates, and having the balls to do semi legal job action. And how were we thanked. We spend the next few years having the rug torn out from under our feet by everyone in Canadian aviation. Westjet pilots that enthusiastically approved disgusting Encore working wages. AC pilots ripping up our exclusive tier 2 flying clause, for nothing. And now we have junior pilots who were still in Jr high, telling us we sold them and the industry out.

And now everyone is telling us we should burn rather significant gains because there might be another offer... for unity... to lead the way...

Will this solve Jazz's hiring and retention issues? In my opinion, no. So I think they will be back if they truly want to save summer.

AC needs to stop trying to think of the cheapest way forward, and realize that pilots are in limited supply, and those that can attract and hire the most will have planes in the sky, while everyone else looks at expensive static displays.

My 2 cents + frustration.

Truedude, it’s like we are the same person, it why I get so mad! People tend to exclude our history when speaking their opinion, they either have no idea how we got there or simple cant empathize, either way it’s very tiring!
I really don’t want to find out the hard way what dealing with the new AC tyrant is like.

[rookiepilot]

These guys get it. How its done.

https://financialpost.com/news/metro-st ... escalation

The difference is that they are unskilled grocery workers who could be replaced in a few days with Joe Schmo’s off the street. The problem here is we are losing experienced pilots and the ones they hire take time to train and most are years away from being a captain. Also we are NOT in a legal strike position. They don’t have to give us dick all since we are in a contract for 12 more years.

AC or Jazz?

[cdnavater]

These guys get it. How its done.

https://financialpost.com/news/metro-st ... escalation

Rookie, you realize we don’t have the ability to strike or even negotiate, we are locked in a contract so what these workers do or don’t do is irrelevant to our situation.

[cdnavater]

These guys get it. How its done.

https://financialpost.com/news/metro-st ... escalation

The difference is that they are unskilled grocery workers who could be replaced in a few days with Joe Schmo’s off the street. The problem here is we are losing experienced pilots and the ones they hire take time to train and most are years away from being a captain. Also we are NOT in a legal strike position. They don’t have to give us dick all since we are in a contract for 12 more years.

AC or Jazz?

You ARE in the Jazz thread.

[rookiepilot]

These guys get it. How its done.

https://financialpost.com/news/metro-st ... escalation

Rookie, you realize we don’t have the ability to strike or even negotiate, we are locked in a contract so what these workers do or don’t do is irrelevant to our situation.

Well, that sucks. 12 more years?

[Blueontop]

These guys get it. How its done.

https://financialpost.com/news/metro-st ... escalation

Rookie, you realize we don’t have the ability to strike or even negotiate, we are locked in a contract so what these workers do or don’t do is irrelevant to our situation.

Well, that sucks. 12 more years?

Yes they were bamboozlde into signing a 17 YEAR deal. That AC doesn’t even respect their side of the agreement they used to “convince” them to sign off on. Yet still have jazz pilots shrugging their shoulders and rolling over like whipped dogs. Unbelievable eh.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Rookie, you realize we don’t have the ability to strike or even negotiate, we are locked in a contract so what these workers do or don’t do is irrelevant to our situation.

Well, that sucks. 12 more years?

Yes they were bamboozlde into signing a 17 YEAR deal. That AC doesn’t even respect their side of the agreement they used to “convince” them to sign off on. Yet still have jazz pilots shrugging their shoulders and rolling over like whipped dogs. Unbelievable eh.

Mind boggling right? 17 years. Often close to half or more of a pilot’s career.

[truedude]

Well, that sucks. 12 more years?

Yes they were bamboozlde into signing a 17 YEAR deal. That AC doesn’t even respect their side of the agreement they used to “convince” them to sign off on. Yet still have jazz pilots shrugging their shoulders and rolling over like whipped dogs. Unbelievable eh.

Mind boggling right? 17 years. Often close to half or more of a pilot’s career.

And a lot of those that voted in that 17 year deal are now at AC. So goof luck with that.