So, years ago......

[cdnavater]

I'm pretty sure Walmart pilots make more than both Jazz and Flair pilots

Thanks for the chuckle:)

[Dockjock]

Circa July 2005 when the first course post-CCAA was hired, coinciding with the beginning of the 60 EMJ order, instead of flat pay we had “position group” which was EMJ FO and all the RP positions. We all made a blended rate that was adjusted based on how many were in each position. Company had to hire into the position group. EMJ rate was off-formula (lower) so it functioned as a ersatz flat pay rate, to use todays terms.

I remember the Let to hire directly into the A320 FO clearly, it came into effect for the October 16, 2006 class. It was for 150 320FO’s so it happened throughout fall 06 and winter 07.

I stand to be corrected but while we didn’t have a set number of years of flat pay ie. 4, you did make Position Group pay for as long as you were in it, which wasn’t necessarily only 2 years. There was a new hire Position Freeze (pre- course rights we had upbid and downbid freezes) which was 2 years. So after two years you could bid out of the Position Group and directly into the 320 which would put you on Formula Pay.

I do not recall if those pilots who went directly into the 320 made formula pay right away. I doubt it, it was ACPA after all. But I do remember it being a bit of a pyrrhic victory (going onto 320 right away) for those pilots as everyone who went into the EMJ enjoyed a relatively seniority boost every month as new pilots came on line. The junior 320 pilots had people coming off of EMJ on top of them, and ended up riding the bottom for quite some years.

[TheStig]

....we had a contract clause that stated that ALL new hires start off in one of two positions.

One was 50 seat RJ FO, the second was Relief Pilot. There was ZERO capacity for the Company to train a brand new pilot into any other position. This was done so that anyone who was currently holding a position at the Company could bid onto a Widebody FO position or even a narrow body 320 FO before it was available to new hires. Shortly after CCAA, there was a LET signed that allowed up to 200 new hires to be trained right seat on the 320. It was suppose to be a "one off" to get the aircraft crewed properly post restructuring. Wow. It was ALL downhill from that point.

Today we have direct entry new hire FO's going to 777 FO right off the street before the position is being offered to anyone already on the property.

I am beginning to wonder if RR even works at AC.... in the 90s pilots were hired into positions as high as 767 FO....so nothing new there. Please show us the contract paragraph where new-hires were prohibited from all but 2 bid positions!

Do you even know how CMSC bids work? All positions are posted on the bid, and all pilots (who don't have a new-hire freeze) are allowed to bid to any position their seniority can hold...only after the bid closes are new-hires posted to vacant positions....sheeesh talk about all thrust and no vector

I stand corrected, but I dont forgive you for what you allowed us to become, no one should.

737 Zip positions appeared open to new hires on CMSC 01-04 and a bit later. However, no one could hold 320 FO right off the street. Freeze criteria has changed over the years, so don't waste your time quoting "specific freeze rules".

Do you remember a LET post CCAA in the summer of 2005 that allowed for a "limited number" of pilots to be trained directly onto the 320? Why was there a LET? A specific contract allowance for a limited, one time number of pilots. If you question that LET, you either were not on the property, or more likely have a selective memory. That LET was granted because the 320 FO position was coveted. Insane concept isn't it? Who would want a 320FO position? Well times have certainly changed haven't they. That's not a question.

The fact remains that you guys are 100% responsible for "hard selling" $hitty contracts over the years that decimated the natural seniority progression onto larger aircraft. That's the point I was making. Accept some responsibility for dragging our asses into the mud.

To guys like Kaffee, it's "situation normal" to have a 4 year 777 FO making less than $100 an hour. Just so you all know who I'm talking to.

What's being discussed is LOU 66 dated November 10th, 2006. It's still on the ACPA website under historical Collective Agreements. Can't recall what was exchanged for such a massive let though, it was something along the lines of corrected activation dates for pilots who had been furloughed after 9/11.

[RippleRock]

The Position Group was a travesty.

It was initiated by the " self destructive notion" that if you aren't on the property, you don't have ANY right to vote on any "savings initiatives". That's a "gem" that hit us hard over the years. 185 pilots came back from layoff in the fall of 2005 and were "magically" second class citizens. During the time those guys and gals were layed off, there were plenty of pilots doing extra OT........we remember who they are. We shouldn't be so surprised that our latest victims of ACPA's charge to "save the Corp", those recently layed off, were treated so poorly.

This destructive "eat your young" policy culminated in the advent of the 4 year flat pay concept. We were sold the notion that this policy wouldn't affect anyone on the property, only"new pilots"..........what an STUPID way to think. You're only "new" for a limited time. Well, now we have a whole bunch of "new people" that are affected by that backward thinking that clearly violated the Constitution, and are now a bit sour. Can anyone blame them for taking over the reins of this shit show?

Unity isn't built by sacrificing the careers of those not yet on the property because you allowed the Company and ACPA to "strip mine" all the value from your contract to the point where that was all you had left to give. It's really pathetic if you think about it.

We didn't show ACPA the door fast enough. We didn't shitcan those who were responsible for decimating our WACON fast enough either. They have no excuses, yet guys like Kaffee still think they have the "moral high ground" around here. Guys like him should be distancing themselves from the "morally bankrupt notion" that was ACPA at every opportunity. However, here he is correcting people like we somehow got it all wrong and not quite perfect on the details. Unbelievable.

The real failure is his and his cohorts EPIC failure to protect the Memberships contract from being pillaged by a Company hungry for every bite they were offered.

[A310Heavy]

Lol

[Blueontop]

The Position Group was a travesty.

It was initiated by the " self destructive notion" that if you aren't on the property, you don't have ANY right to vote on any "savings initiatives". That's a "gem" that hit us hard over the years. 185 pilots came back from layoff in the fall of 2005 and were "magically" second class citizens. During the time those guys and gals were layed off, there were plenty of pilots doing extra OT........we remember who they are. We shouldn't be so surprised that our latest victims of ACPA's charge to "save the Corp", those recently layed off, were treated so poorly.

This destructive "eat your young" policy culminated in the advent of the 4 year flat pay concept. We were sold the notion that this policy wouldn't affect anyone on the property, only"new pilots"..........what an STUPID way to think. You're only "new" for a limited time. Well, now we have a whole bunch of "new people" that are affected by that backward thinking that clearly violated the Constitution, and are now a bit sour. Can anyone blame them for taking over the reins of this shit show?

Unity isn't built by sacrificing the careers of those not yet on the property because you allowed the Company and ACPA to "strip mine" all the value from your contract to the point where that was all you had left to give. It's really pathetic if you think about it.

We didn't show ACPA the door fast enough. We didn't shitcan those who were responsible for decimating our WACON fast enough either. They have no excuses, yet guys like Kaffee still think they have the "moral high ground" around here. Guys like him should be distancing themselves from the "morally bankrupt notion" that was ACPA at every opportunity. However, here he is correcting people like we somehow got it all wrong and not quite perfect on the details. Unbelievable.

The real failure is his and his cohorts EPIC failure to protect the Memberships contract from being pillaged by a Company hungry for every bite they were offered.

Ripple...I assume you know who Kaffee is...Former MEC Chair who still gets free hockey tickets from the company. This isn't a joke

This is so so disgusting. Perhaps these traitors should be named and shamed instead having their identities protected

[DanWEC]

I honestly thought he was some random guy posting ironically for the disruption and attention. I had no idea this was a genuine attitude, and one of such corruption and selfishness that sold out an entire generation across this industry. To me that mentality is incongruous with basic humanity, but I'm surprised every day.
Eye opening and unbelievable.

[sportingrifle]

....we had a contract clause that stated that ALL new hires start off in one of two positions.

One was 50 seat RJ FO, the second was Relief Pilot. There was ZERO capacity for the Company to train a brand new pilot into any other position. This was done so that anyone who was currently holding a position at the Company could bid onto a Widebody FO position or even a narrow body 320 FO before it was available to new hires. Shortly after CCAA, there was a LET signed that allowed up to 200 new hires to be trained right seat on the 320. It was suppose to be a "one off" to get the aircraft crewed properly post restructuring. Wow. It was ALL downhill from that point.

Today we have direct entry new hire FO's going to 777 FO right off the street before the position is being offered to anyone already on the property.

I am beginning to wonder if RR even works at AC.... in the 90s pilots were hired into positions as high as 767 FO....so nothing new there. Please show us the contract paragraph where new-hires were prohibited from all but 2 bid positions!

Do you even know how CMSC bids work? All positions are posted on the bid, and all pilots (who don't have a new-hire freeze) are allowed to bid to any position their seniority can hold...only after the bid closes are new-hires posted to vacant positions....sheeesh talk about all thrust and no vector

I stand corrected, but I dont forgive you for what you allowed us to become, no one should.

737 Zip positions appeared open to new hires on CMSC 01-04 and a bit later. However, no one could hold 320 FO right off the street. Freeze criteria has changed over the years, so don't waste your time quoting "specific freeze rules".

Do you remember a LET post CCAA in the summer of 2005 that allowed for a "limited number" of pilots to be trained directly onto the 320? Why was there a LET? A specific contract allowance for a limited, one time number of pilots. If you question that LET, you either were not on the property, or more likely have a selective memory. That LET was granted because the 320 FO position was coveted. Insane concept isn't it? Who would want a 320FO position? Well times have certainly changed haven't they. That's not a question.

The fact remains that you guys are 100% responsible for "hard selling" $hitty contracts over the years that decimated the natural seniority progression onto larger aircraft. That's the point I was making. Accept some responsibility for dragging our asses into the mud.

To guys like Kaffee, it's "situation normal" to have a 4 year 777 FO making less than $100 an hour. Just so you all know who I'm talking to.

Hired 1996 directly into right seat of the A-320. Could also have gone right seat DC-9 or direct entry RJ captain.

[RippleRock]

I am beginning to wonder if RR even works at AC.... in the 90s pilots were hired into positions as high as 767 FO....so nothing new there. Please show us the contract paragraph where new-hires were prohibited from all but 2 bid positions!

Do you even know how CMSC bids work? All positions are posted on the bid, and all pilots (who don't have a new-hire freeze) are allowed to bid to any position their seniority can hold...only after the bid closes are new-hires posted to vacant positions....sheeesh talk about all thrust and no vector

I stand corrected, but I dont forgive you for what you allowed us to become, no one should.

737 Zip positions appeared open to new hires on CMSC 01-04 and a bit later. However, no one could hold 320 FO right off the street. Freeze criteria has changed over the years, so don't waste your time quoting "specific freeze rules".

Do you remember a LET post CCAA in the summer of 2005 that allowed for a "limited number" of pilots to be trained directly onto the 320? Why was there a LET? A specific contract allowance for a limited, one time number of pilots. If you question that LET, you either were not on the property, or more likely have a selective memory. That LET was granted because the 320 FO position was coveted. Insane concept isn't it? Who would want a 320FO position? Well times have certainly changed haven't they. That's not a question.

The fact remains that you guys are 100% responsible for "hard selling" $hitty contracts over the years that decimated the natural seniority progression onto larger aircraft. That's the point I was making. Accept some responsibility for dragging our asses into the mud.

To guys like Kaffee, it's "situation normal" to have a 4 year 777 FO making less than $100 an hour. Just so you all know who I'm talking to.

Hired 1996 directly into right seat of the A-320. Could also have gone right seat DC-9 or direct entry RJ captain.

Yes, I stand as corrected. Our past was convoluted and muddied by may LETS and changes over the years.

The whole point of this thread was to highlight how our awful starting wage has upended the natural seniority progression through the aircraft. Rouge has done something similar. I remember how great the Mainline 320 and 767 flying once was, then we let Rouge come along and decimate the Mainline stuff.

We let that happen, we had every opportunity to fight FOS, but we instead chose to enshrine it into contract law for a lousy 10 years. Here's hoping we have finally removed our heads from our a$$es and realize what a collusionary mess ACPA had let us become.