First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog

digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6756
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by digits_ »

goldeneagle wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 3:43 pm I told him, we were fully staffed, but, definitely could use an extra set of hands around the hangar. If he took that, then, next seat open in an airplane would end up in a position to fly. Youngster declined, and left, after all he was a pilot, to good to get his hands dirty in the shop. He left an impression with me, not a good one.
For every company that says that, means it, and actually does that, there's likely 5 that promise the same and not honor that promise.

I've witnessed 2 people that were promised the same. Dangling the carrot. Yet when pilots quit there was always an excuse. Usually something like "we can't train a new fueller in time" or "we can't find a new groomer" or "you're too valuable to replace". There's always excuses.

I also doubt he felt too good to get his hands dirty. Perhaps he would have accepted if you offered him a combo of flying and ramping from the start? Surely you could have put him in an airplane once a week if you wanted to. It would have allowed you to judge his flying skills right away, preventing him from wasting possibly a couple of years if his flying skills weren't up to your standards.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by PilotDAR »

I also doubt he felt too good to get his hands dirty. Perhaps he would have accepted if you offered him a combo of flying and ramping from the start? Surely you could have put him in an airplane once a week if you wanted to. It would have allowed you to judge his flying skills right away, preventing him from wasting possibly a couple of years if his flying skills weren't up to your standards.
One of my clients, for whom a small part of my services was test flying modified airplanes for them, also hired an administrative fellow who was also a pilot, and an eager to fly more type of guy. I know that he asked if there would be some flying opportunity with the new job, and the boss told him "we'll see, but its not what you're being hired for". He enthusiastically told me about his previous job as an admin type person in a very busy aviation company. He told me about the flying he did there, though I took what he said with a grain of salt, as the knowledge he presented did not seem to align with the experience he told me he had.

The boss, true to his word (as he always was!) did take new guy a long on a couple of flights, but there did not seem to be any growth to new guy's opportunities. He would complain to me. So, as I could, and with the boss' agreement, I'd take him on some test flights, as a note taker, and observer, and let him fly a little. To be truthful, the guy just did not fly well at all! I can see why the boss did not continue to "grow" new guy as a pilot - he did need one. I ended up doing more of the needed flying around the place, and new guy got jealous of me doing it. I'd take him as I could, but, he was not being paid to fly, and was not going to be with that employer. He moved on within the year. Nice guy, not as good a pilot as he thought he was, and did not pick up skills well.

But, on the whole, I have noticed and experienced that when the boss hires new guy/gal who comes with a pilot's license, it's not long before their skills are being considered on a flight or two. Certainly that employer, and others have asked me to go ride right seat with new guy/gal, and tell them what I think of their flying - they got a chance reasonably early on. On the other hand, for my experience, every boss I have flown for has been a "dirty hands" person themselves, so the new guy/gal has to at least demonstrate some agreeablity to doing dirty work - 'cause the boss will, if they won't but the boss is not hiring a new person so that the boss can keep on doing the dirty work! Most of my early pilot jobs came as a result of my willingly doing airplane dirty work first!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2488
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Old fella »

‘Bob’ wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:27 pm
goldeneagle wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 3:43 pm
xplane wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 3:07 pm I agree that you have to start somewhere and have to put in your time. Starting out in most jobs, you will probably need to grind it out and working conditions won't be perfect, but starting at the ramp after spending almost 60-80k in training is bullshit. This is 100% companies taking advantage of your situation and we shouldn't encourage that.
I see it quite differently. There was a time quite a number of years ago where I was CP for a small outfit, and the one tasked with hiring new pilots. I can remember one time very clearly, young fella showed up looking for that 'first job', low time person. I told him, we were fully staffed, but, definitely could use an extra set of hands around the hangar. If he took that, then, next seat open in an airplane would end up in a position to fly. Youngster declined, and left, after all he was a pilot, to good to get his hands dirty in the shop. He left an impression with me, not a good one. The very next day, after dinner one of our folks broke an arm during a softball game, suddenly we had an empty seat. Had youngster taken the offer to be a hangar gopher, that job would have lasted exactly 2 days before he was in an airplane. but he left such a good impression, I didn't even bother calling him, instead went to the resume pile.

It's been often said here, getting that first job as a low time pilot often involves being in the right place, at the right time. Working at an outfit in a non flying position is one way to end up in the right place, at the right time.

There's a lot of regulars here, long time airline types started into this industry in a non flying position, be it on a ramp, on a dock, or in a dispatch office, so they were at the right place when the right time arrived.
You’re missing a few things, Mr GoldenEagle.

First is that rarely does such a fortuitous interaction ever occur. In fact, quite often it’s six months to a year commitment to a ramp position before being considered for a flying position. Some places even longer.. years!

Second. Ramp does absolutely nothing to teach a pilot to be a better pilot. Flying skills atrophy and useless skills accumulate.

Finally.. it isn’t the “good old days” anymore.. thank god. Most pilots bypass this “paying your dues” BS. This has been a wonderful wake up call for lots of old timers who thought that pilots were a dime a dozen and cheap or free labour abounds.

I never worked ramp. Started flying day one as a flight instructor. Then I went up north into a flying position. Then came down south, or middle, or whatever isn’t the big smoke but still has KFC and Walmart and been doing it ever since.. not once having anyone question my work ethic or coming across anything a 30 second YouTube video couldn’t explain better than an old curmudgeon.
You are missing an important item as well Mr. Bob

Demographics!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tbayer2021
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Tbayer2021 »

goldeneagle wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 3:43 pm
xplane wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 3:07 pm I agree that you have to start somewhere and have to put in your time. Starting out in most jobs, you will probably need to grind it out and working conditions won't be perfect, but starting at the ramp after spending almost 60-80k in training is bullshit. This is 100% companies taking advantage of your situation and we shouldn't encourage that.
I see it quite differently. There was a time quite a number of years ago where I was CP for a small outfit, and the one tasked with hiring new pilots. I can remember one time very clearly, young fella showed up looking for that 'first job', low time person. I told him, we were fully staffed, but, definitely could use an extra set of hands around the hangar. If he took that, then, next seat open in an airplane would end up in a position to fly. Youngster declined, and left, after all he was a pilot, to good to get his hands dirty in the shop. He left an impression with me, not a good one. The very next day, after dinner one of our folks broke an arm during a softball game, suddenly we had an empty seat. Had youngster taken the offer to be a hangar gopher, that job would have lasted exactly 2 days before he was in an airplane. but he left such a good impression, I didn't even bother calling him, instead went to the resume pile.

It's been often said here, getting that first job as a low time pilot often involves being in the right place, at the right time. Working at an outfit in a non flying position is one way to end up in the right place, at the right time.

There's a lot of regulars here, long time airline types started into this industry in a non flying position, be it on a ramp, on a dock, or in a dispatch office, so they were at the right place when the right time arrived.
This literally just distills down to "We've always done it this way".

It was truly a sight to see how every operation that always claimed a ridiculously high number of hours were required to fly their Navajo or King air, all of the sudden had no problem putting 250-500 hour pilots in them. Along with every CP claiming a pilot needed to work the ramp to, "learn the operation", now having no problem hiring straight into a flying position.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6756
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by digits_ »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 9:07 am
This literally just distills down to "We've always done it this way".

It was truly a sight to see how every operation that always claimed a ridiculously high number of hours were required to fly their Navajo or King air, all of the sudden had no problem putting 250-500 hour pilots in them. Along with every CP claiming a pilot needed to work the ramp to, "learn the operation", now having no problem hiring straight into a flying position.
Yup :prayer:

The alternative, of course, would be to pay for pilots who do have the previously-deemed-essential-and-required experience.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Tbayer2021
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Tbayer2021 »

digits_ wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 9:39 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 9:07 am
This literally just distills down to "We've always done it this way".

It was truly a sight to see how every operation that always claimed a ridiculously high number of hours were required to fly their Navajo or King air, all of the sudden had no problem putting 250-500 hour pilots in them. Along with every CP claiming a pilot needed to work the ramp to, "learn the operation", now having no problem hiring straight into a flying position.
Yup :prayer:

The alternative, of course, would be to pay for pilots who do have the previously-deemed-essential-and-required experience.

Which to be fair, some operators have increased compensation significantly. However, for many years said operators had no problem telling us the company simply couldn't afford more.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6756
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by digits_ »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 9:54 am
digits_ wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 9:39 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 9:07 am
This literally just distills down to "We've always done it this way".

It was truly a sight to see how every operation that always claimed a ridiculously high number of hours were required to fly their Navajo or King air, all of the sudden had no problem putting 250-500 hour pilots in them. Along with every CP claiming a pilot needed to work the ramp to, "learn the operation", now having no problem hiring straight into a flying position.
Yup :prayer:

The alternative, of course, would be to pay for pilots who do have the previously-deemed-essential-and-required experience.

Which to be fair, some operators have increased compensation significantly. However, for many years said operators had no problem telling us the company simply couldn't afford more.
True.

Everything's impossible until it's impossible to no longer do the things that were previously deemed impossible :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
just clearing the trees
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:42 pm

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by just clearing the trees »

‘Bob’ wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:27 pm Second. Ramp does absolutely nothing to teach a pilot to be a better pilot. Flying skills atrophy and useless skills accumulate.
If you're talking about an airline style, walk on, walk off sort of flying job, you're right. But, for the usual entry level flying job that entails much more, it's just not true. I've flown with lots of noobs who started on the ramp, and plenty who didn't. I always prefer to fly with one who has been on the ramp. They're not any better at flying the airplane, but when it comes to everything else that goes into getting the airplane safely off the ground, they are light years ahead of someone who has never done that work before. The reality is that most first flying jobs involve a lot more work than just flying the plane. A lot of that work can directly affect the safety of any given flight. I'll take the pilot who has done those tasks enough times that I can feel comfortable delegating some of them and focus on other relevant stuff.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tbayer2021
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Tbayer2021 »

just clearing the trees wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 7:30 pm
‘Bob’ wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:27 pm Second. Ramp does absolutely nothing to teach a pilot to be a better pilot. Flying skills atrophy and useless skills accumulate.
If you're talking about an airline style, walk on, walk off sort of flying job, you're right. But, for the usual entry level flying job that entails much more, it's just not true. I've flown with lots of noobs who started on the ramp, and plenty who didn't. I always prefer to fly with one who has been on the ramp. They're not any better at flying the airplane, but when it comes to everything else that goes into getting the airplane safely off the ground, they are light years ahead of someone who has never done that work before. The reality is that most first flying jobs involve a lot more work than just flying the plane. A lot of that work can directly affect the safety of any given flight. I'll take the pilot who has done those tasks enough times that I can feel comfortable delegating some of them and focus on other relevant stuff.
What was I thinking? You're absolutely right!

Thinking back to my very first job flying a206 and 185 stationed on my own at an out-base. It took me 12 months to figure out how to properly load them, fuel them, fill out an OFP, do the logbook and properly bill the MNR. I don't know what the company was thinking hiring me directly onto them, giving me 1 week of training and then cutting me loose. They should count their lucky stars I didn't bend any metal.

I do still feel bad for the rampie that was already there. Maybe they just really had to make sure he understood the operation before giving him a flying position the better part of 2 years later.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tbayer2021
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Tbayer2021 »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:33 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 8:24 am
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:00 pm The 300 mile CPL cross country should be approved by the students instructor, especially if the airplane is a flight school rental. It will be on a clear and a million day to the same places everybody goes to.
There have been plenty of discussions about this topic that, at the very least, illustrate there are a few CPL students in Canada that did not do their 300 NM cross country under FTU supervision. Some might fly the 'official' 300 NM under supervision, but that doesn't mean that they can't have flown to other destinations on their own.
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:00 pm Ferry flights don’t give you the luxury of waiting for perfect, you will use your experience to get the job done in good enough weather while managing the aircraft defects that are almost certainly going to be present. That kind of experience takes time to learn. In addition your point about assessing the paperwork and condition of the aircraft is also very important

At the average FTU the dispatcher throws the keys at you and the FTU technical dispatch system should provide you with an airworthy airplane. If there is a problem there is a school AME to ask. None of that exists in BumFuck Ontario when you show up to ferry the airplane you have never seen before.
Where did you find an AME to rectify the 59 snags you found during the ferry flight you described?
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:00 pm I say again commercial ferry flying is not an entry level job.
But what is? Flying a 206 in possibly worse mehanical shape at a shady 703 op in worse weather conditions under more pressure with paying pax on board? It's much easier to piss off one aircraft owner on a one off ferry flight waiting for better weather, than it is to piss off your boss on your first actual job!

In that regards, ferry flying is a perfect first job. The risk is limited to you and the airplane. Not an easy job, but you'll get that experience quite quickly.
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:59 pm 200 hour brand new CPL’s are going to pretty much by definition not have the skills to make the kind of flight planning decisions that are required to get the job done safely. In any case good luck getting insurance for ferry flying without significant experience.
That doesn't make sense. By what definition?

If I can take the liberty paraphrase the common theme in your posts, I think it would sound something like this: "Not every CPL holder will be able to safely complete every random ferry flight". Which is of course true. But that doesn't mean that you can't say "some CPL holders are quite capable of safely completing a ferry flight between Toronto and Montreal". There's a whole spectrum out there of 'ferry flights'.

Realistically, I think the biggest risks are liability, unhappy customers (you're 2 weeks late!!!), unexpected costs (fine if you wanted to wait out the weather in a hotel, but I ain't paying for it!). Crashing is always a risk, but with proper preparation those flights shouldn't be the death traps they are made out to be.

Very few crashes are linked to pure mechanical failures. Lots of sitting airplanes aren't going to fail in the next 10 hours. Even, worst case scenario, rusty metal making engines don't necessarily explode in the first 10 hours you fire them up again.
I agree with digits_. Some type of ferry flying can be dangerous and certainly requires experience, but not all. Taking a SEP over the North Atlantic is not the same as taking one across Canada. It seems to me that all ferry flying is sometimes seen as difficult and requiring certain level of experience, just because some of it can be challenging. My first ferry job was actually taking a 182 from Buttonville to Vernon during winter. This was a month after I received my CPL and it wasn't challenging in any respect. It was quite a fun trip that I still look back on and wish I could still do such flights.

Make sure to post the whole thing, Rookie. Not just the part that's convenient to the point you're fruitlessly trying to make. I love how you have absolutely no problem making a fool of yourself.

I agree with digits_. Some type of ferry flying can be dangerous and certainly requires experience, but not all. Taking a SEP over the North Atlantic is not the same as taking one across Canada. It seems to me that all ferry flying is sometimes seen as difficult and requiring certain level of experience, just because some of it can be challenging. My first ferry job was actually taking a 182 from Buttonville to Vernon during winter. This was a month after I received my CPL and it wasn't challenging in any respect. It was quite a fun trip that I still look back on and wish I could still do such flights.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Tbayer2021 on Sun May 26, 2024 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
rookiepilot
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5069
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by rookiepilot »

Uh, it’s obvious and everywhere.

You know , the arrogance in general wouldn’t bother me, but when its to a point listening to you is gonna get someone killed , I am going to say something.

Look carefully in the mirror on how you present things. Really. Talk to your parents or something.

Last word on the subject.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by PilotDAR »

This is a public post, rather than a PM, so it's "out there" rather than appearing as a secret comment, personally directed.

It is of no benefit to the topic, professionalism, or the image to new pilots, for posts here which are more personal attack that discussion of the topic. If a post makes another poster divert their effort from a useful post to a defense, time and effort has been wasted! And, everyone looks bad! This forum is not the place for a pissing contest, play the ball, not the player!

Vague generalizations like "you're going to get someone killed" are of zero use! When I feel that someone has posted an unsafe technique, I may comment that technique, with a specific thought on how I might do it differently. I do not think to myself that a pilot is "going to get someone killed" and if I did, I would not say it.

If people (and I'm being general here again) want to participate in this forum, we all must hope it is to make it a better place. It is not a better place at all if non posting readers read negative personal attack - particularly when they have no basis whatever! If you're coming here, but doing so without the intent to make it better - why!?! Just don't comment! Are image here is no better than the perception other posters here take from our posts they read. If posters see a particular poster's identity, and anticipate a valueless post before they even read it, why bother (reading, or even posting it?) Just save the time on both sides, and let the overall image of the forum appear better.

I don't always agree with everyone here. Very occasionally, I eye roll - but I don't type it! Though we may have minor differences of opinion, we're all keen on aviation - right? I would like to think that I could happily meet anyone here, with "Pilot DAR' on my name sticker, and be regarded as a welcomed group member - or why bother? Why bother being here? So I will conduct myself accordingly. Would someone else do so too please?

Oh, and for myself, I never type "this is my last post", cause I think I would look silly when I post again afterword anyway, was I not listening to myself?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by PilotDAR »

Okay, I'll play for a moment...
On another thread you commented very negatively on another ferry pilot promoting a business
My comment was not "very negative", it was that it was not a good look. I have no idea of the pilot's skill and experience, but I have a lot of experience with what someone who is seeking to hire a "ferry pilot" is looking for in skills. I stand by what I post, please quote it in fair context. I genuinely hope that self promoting ferry pilot seeking more training considers my comment, and takes a step back to consider the "look" which an experienced client might see. Non ideal, but not "very negative".
bad advice, that a brand new CPL should be able to ferry aircraft in winter
Do I understand that you're not in favour of new CPL's flying/ferrying in winter? (or, to be fair to you, am I perhaps mis understanding your concern?). I'm entirely comfortable with a new pilot flying in whatever season, providing they apply suitable allowances and cautions for the weather that they may anticipate in that season. I've never seen a pilot's license which was limited to particular seasons! Some of my best ferry flying has been on very cold winter days - I like those days you can see for hundreds of miles. Some of my more worrisome trips have been in the summer, where thunderstorms and unstable air masses were a concern. I hope that I have mis understood your concern, and you can be confident as I that newer pilots should review the weather, and make a good decision, not just blindly wait for the next season!

(reminds me of an anecdote: when I was a student pilot, I was a little lazy sometimes. While waiting (during the winter) to fly my solo cross country, I would ask my instructor with the weather was good enough. His standard answer was: "I don't think so", so I'd do circuits, hoping for the next opportunity. After a few rounds of my repeated laziness in this regard, another instructor instructor (who'd overheard) whispered to me: "Check the weather yourself..." I did, and it was entirely suitable. I took my weather notes to my instructor, and said that I thought the weather was suitable. he said: "Great, go fly your cross country then...". I learned to not be lazy from that! (and that wniter flying was fine, as long as you checked the weather)!

In any case, Rookiepilot, as you have chosen to comment my post, I hope you feel welcome to express your supportive perspective, and allow the group the benefit of the considerable flying experience which I credit you as having. Hopefully, no one is feeling personally attacked because of a post! Sure, comment, share your wisdom in a supportive way, the newbies will benefit! Be the pilot who the newbies read, and ask to fly with here, because they read your posts! That really does happen here!

My effort to steer toward the positive for the evening....
---------- ADS -----------
 
Onesie
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:12 pm

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Onesie »

I'm concerned rookie is a real human behind a pilot license.. dead on arrival
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

One of the challenges in responding to posts is unconscious competence on the part of experienced pilots. This makes it hard to actually put yourself in the shoes of a new pilot.

My problem is the what is vs what should be now, today in Canadian flight training

What should be: Of course a holder of a PPL should be fully competent to show at an airport they have never been to, take over care and custody of an airplane they have never seen and then fly it across the country in winter on their own

What is: CPL was most likely taught by a Class 4 with less than 500 hours total time and no experience outside the FTU they did all their training. The school managed risks by very restrictive conditions (eg 5 kt X wind maximum high ceiling and vis requirements, proscribed and vetted cross country routes etc etc). This training was geared to pass the flight test not provide all the competencies required to be a ferry pilot out of the box

You won't get any argument from me that this is totally wrong but it is the present day reality. Now maybe the OP had an incredibly experienced instructor teaching him and he was exposed to all sorts of good PDM and experiences but in the very likely reality that this was not the case then I think taking on a ferry job is not wise. He/she needs to gain experience with mentorship and supervision, solo ferry flights are not going to provide that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Sun May 26, 2024 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tbayer2021
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Tbayer2021 »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:05 pm My concerns with a new CPL ferrying an aircraft cross country in winter are 2 Fold:

Icing over the mountains, (and around Lake Superior for that matter — pushing weather due to client pressure.

Evaluation of a previously unseen aircraft for airworthiness.

I cannot conceive of a new CPl, eager to please and gain hours, managing either of those tasks safely.

A new CPL ferrying anything cross country is not a “good look”
Then you'll be happy to know that the client didn't push in any way and was fully aware of the limitations of flying a 182 during winter. The aircraft's logbooks were looked through and it showed a history of frequent flying right up until it was sold. The shop I picked it up from advised me of the squawks they found during the pre-purchase and none were consequential. If I recall correctly, the biggest one was that the GPS database was out of date. I asked if they could updated it and it was taken care of. I was confident in the mechanical state of the airplane after that and was happy to learn the engine only had 400 hours on it after an overhaul 3 years prior. I told the client that I'd need to perform a test flight before I got on my way, and there was nothing but understanding from his end. Same thing when I took a 210 from Fort Mac to North Dakota. I explained to the client that while the plane had boots, I'd be treating it as a VFR aircraft since the area I was transiting is known for serious icing. No problems either when taking another SEP from Seattle to Ontario during winter. It's almost as if most people take this seriously and aren't the dumb-asses you think we are.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5069
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by rookiepilot »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:15 pm One of the challenges in responding to posts is unconscious competence on the part of experienced pilots. This makes it hard to actually put yourself in the shoes of a new pilot.

My problem is the what is vs what should be now today in Canadian flight training

What should be: Of course a holder of a PPL should be fully competent to show at an airport they have never been to, take over care and custody of an airplane they have never seen and then fly it across the country in winter on their own

What is: CPL was most likely taught by a Class 4 with less than 500 hours total time and no experience outside the FTU they did all their training. The school managed risks by very restrictive conditions (eg 5 kt X wind maximum high ceiling and vis requirements, proscribed and vetted cross country routes etc etc). This training was geared to pass the flight test not provide all the competencies required to be a ferry pilot out of the box

You won't get any argument that this is totally wrong but it is the present day reality. Now maybe the OP had an incredibly experienced instructor teaching him and he was exposed to all sorts of good PDM and experiences but in the very likely reality that this was not the case then I think taking on a ferry job is not wise. He/she needs to gain experience with mentorship and supervision, solo ferry flights are not going to provide that.
BPF puts it much more eloquently than I can. I get emotional seeing needless death. Shoot me.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:17 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:05 pm My concerns with a new CPL ferrying an aircraft cross country in winter are 2 Fold:

Icing over the mountains, (and around Lake Superior for that matter — pushing weather due to client pressure.

Evaluation of a previously unseen aircraft for airworthiness.

I cannot conceive of a new CPl, eager to please and gain hours, managing either of those tasks safely.

A new CPL ferrying anything cross country is not a “good look”
Then you'll be happy to know that the client didn't push in any way and was fully aware of the limitations of flying a 182 during winter. The aircraft's logbooks were looked through and it showed a history of frequent flying right up until it was sold. The shop I picked it up from advised me of the squawks they found during the pre-purchase and none were consequential. If I recall correctly, the biggest one was that the GPS database was out of date. I asked if they could updated it and it was taken care of. I was confident in the mechanical state of the airplane after that and was happy to learn the engine only had 400 hours on it after an overhaul 3 years prior. I told the client that I'd need to perform a test flight before I got on my way, and there was nothing but understanding from his end. Same thing when I took a 210 from Fort Mac to North Dakota. I explained to the client that while the plane had boots, I'd be treating it as a VFR aircraft since the area I was transiting is known for serious icing. No problems either when taking another SEP from Seattle to Ontario during winter. It's almost as if most people take this seriously and aren't the dumb-asses you think we are.
So you were a brand new CPL when you did this ?


In any case your experience has not been my experience when ferrying airplanes. The airplanes I ended up ferrying all had issues and there was always time constraints. One was such a shyte show I abandoned it at the first stop and flew home on my own dime.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Sun May 26, 2024 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
rookiepilot
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5069
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by rookiepilot »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:17 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:05 pm My concerns with a new CPL ferrying an aircraft cross country in winter are 2 Fold:

Icing over the mountains, (and around Lake Superior for that matter — pushing weather due to client pressure.

Evaluation of a previously unseen aircraft for airworthiness.

I cannot conceive of a new CPl, eager to please and gain hours, managing either of those tasks safely.

A new CPL ferrying anything cross country is not a “good look”
Then you'll be happy to know that the client didn't push in any way and was fully aware of the limitations of flying a 182 during winter. The aircraft's logbooks were looked through and it showed a history of frequent flying right up until it was sold. The shop I picked it up from advised me of the squawks they found during the pre-purchase and none were consequential. If I recall correctly, the biggest one was that the GPS database was out of date. I asked if they could updated it and it was taken care of. I was confident in the mechanical state of the airplane after that and was happy to learn the engine only had 400 hours on it after an overhaul 3 years prior. I told the client that I'd need to perform a test flight before I got on my way, and there was nothing but understanding from his end. Same thing when I took a 210 from Fort Mac to North Dakota. I explained to the client that while the plane had boots, I'd be treating it as a VFR aircraft since the area I was transiting is known for serious icing. No problems either when taking another SEP from Seattle to Ontario during winter. It's almost as if most people take this seriously and aren't the dumb-asses you think we are.
There are lots of dumbasses who read this, its a first job CPL thread — not an airline thread and YOU only said it was “easy and fun, one month after I got my CPL”.

Think of the reader…
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun May 26, 2024 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

deleted double post
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Sun May 26, 2024 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tbayer2021
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Tbayer2021 »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:19 pm
Tbayer2021 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:17 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:05 pm My concerns with a new CPL ferrying an aircraft cross country in winter are 2 Fold:

Icing over the mountains, (and around Lake Superior for that matter — pushing weather due to client pressure.

Evaluation of a previously unseen aircraft for airworthiness.

I cannot conceive of a new CPl, eager to please and gain hours, managing either of those tasks safely.

A new CPL ferrying anything cross country is not a “good look”
Then you'll be happy to know that the client didn't push in any way and was fully aware of the limitations of flying a 182 during winter. The aircraft's logbooks were looked through and it showed a history of frequent flying right up until it was sold. The shop I picked it up from advised me of the squawks they found during the pre-purchase and none were consequential. If I recall correctly, the biggest one was that the GPS database was out of date. I asked if they could updated it and it was taken care of. I was confident in the mechanical state of the airplane after that and was happy to learn the engine only had 400 hours on it after an overhaul 3 years prior. I told the client that I'd need to perform a test flight before I got on my way, and there was nothing but understanding from his end. Same thing when I took a 210 from Fort Mac to North Dakota. I explained to the client that while the plane had boots, I'd be treating it as a VFR aircraft since the area I was transiting is known for serious icing. No problems either when taking another SEP from Seattle to Ontario during winter. It's almost as if most people take this seriously and aren't the dumb-asses you think we are.
So you were a brand new CPL when you did this ?
Yes. I think it was about 2 months or so IIRC. Not for the 210 and other SEP I mentioned. I had a few thousand hours by the time I flew those two.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tbayer2021
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Tbayer2021 »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:19 pm
Tbayer2021 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:17 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:05 pm My concerns with a new CPL ferrying an aircraft cross country in winter are 2 Fold:

Icing over the mountains, (and around Lake Superior for that matter — pushing weather due to client pressure.

Evaluation of a previously unseen aircraft for airworthiness.

I cannot conceive of a new CPl, eager to please and gain hours, managing either of those tasks safely.

A new CPL ferrying anything cross country is not a “good look”
Then you'll be happy to know that the client didn't push in any way and was fully aware of the limitations of flying a 182 during winter. The aircraft's logbooks were looked through and it showed a history of frequent flying right up until it was sold. The shop I picked it up from advised me of the squawks they found during the pre-purchase and none were consequential. If I recall correctly, the biggest one was that the GPS database was out of date. I asked if they could updated it and it was taken care of. I was confident in the mechanical state of the airplane after that and was happy to learn the engine only had 400 hours on it after an overhaul 3 years prior. I told the client that I'd need to perform a test flight before I got on my way, and there was nothing but understanding from his end. Same thing when I took a 210 from Fort Mac to North Dakota. I explained to the client that while the plane had boots, I'd be treating it as a VFR aircraft since the area I was transiting is known for serious icing. No problems either when taking another SEP from Seattle to Ontario during winter. It's almost as if most people take this seriously and aren't the dumb-asses you think we are.
So you were a brand new CPL when you did this ?


In any case your experience has not been my experience when ferrying airplanes. The airplanes I ended up ferrying all had issues and there was always time constraints. One was such a shyte show I abandoned it at the first stop and flew home on my own dime.

And I don't doubt you one bit. My point was that not all ferry flying is difficult and dangerous. I know why ferrying has such reputation, but its not all like that and plenty of it is quite easy and manageable by lower experienced pilots. Hell, a 300NM trip can be a ferry job and a CPL student has to demonstrate that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tbayer2021
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Tbayer2021 »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:20 pm
Tbayer2021 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:17 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:05 pm My concerns with a new CPL ferrying an aircraft cross country in winter are 2 Fold:

Icing over the mountains, (and around Lake Superior for that matter — pushing weather due to client pressure.

Evaluation of a previously unseen aircraft for airworthiness.

I cannot conceive of a new CPl, eager to please and gain hours, managing either of those tasks safely.

A new CPL ferrying anything cross country is not a “good look”
Then you'll be happy to know that the client didn't push in any way and was fully aware of the limitations of flying a 182 during winter. The aircraft's logbooks were looked through and it showed a history of frequent flying right up until it was sold. The shop I picked it up from advised me of the squawks they found during the pre-purchase and none were consequential. If I recall correctly, the biggest one was that the GPS database was out of date. I asked if they could updated it and it was taken care of. I was confident in the mechanical state of the airplane after that and was happy to learn the engine only had 400 hours on it after an overhaul 3 years prior. I told the client that I'd need to perform a test flight before I got on my way, and there was nothing but understanding from his end. Same thing when I took a 210 from Fort Mac to North Dakota. I explained to the client that while the plane had boots, I'd be treating it as a VFR aircraft since the area I was transiting is known for serious icing. No problems either when taking another SEP from Seattle to Ontario during winter. It's almost as if most people take this seriously and aren't the dumb-asses you think we are.
There are lots of dumbasses who read this, its a first job CPL thread — not an airline thread and YOU only said it was “easy and fun, one month after I got my CPL”.

Think of the reader…
I said not all ferry trips are the same. Stop taking my words out of context. This is at least the second time you do it today. Some trips can be easy and fun, like that one was since it was all VFR the whole way.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5069
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by rookiepilot »

I ferried an aircraft too, as a new CPL, and also in winter, and also most of the way across the country. Winnipeg to Salt Lake city. VFR all the way, did it in one long day. Tired old 172. No Gps, we had a little portable thing with us. Got out of the Idaho mountains just as darkness started to fall.

Difference was, the airplane was “known” cause I had a far more experienced pilot (responsible for the plane, and knew its maintenance well) with me, he had flown the route before, and mentoring me while I flew.

Was a really cool experience, weather was fine, but the mountains were intimidating— never flown in them before that day. Not a chance I would have done that flight alone at that point.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun May 26, 2024 9:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: First Pilot job 2024 Fresh CPL

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:28 pm
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:19 pm
Tbayer2021 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 9:17 pm

Then you'll be happy to know that the client didn't push in any way and was fully aware of the limitations of flying a 182 during winter. The aircraft's logbooks were looked through and it showed a history of frequent flying right up until it was sold. The shop I picked it up from advised me of the squawks they found during the pre-purchase and none were consequential. If I recall correctly, the biggest one was that the GPS database was out of date. I asked if they could updated it and it was taken care of. I was confident in the mechanical state of the airplane after that and was happy to learn the engine only had 400 hours on it after an overhaul 3 years prior. I told the client that I'd need to perform a test flight before I got on my way, and there was nothing but understanding from his end. Same thing when I took a 210 from Fort Mac to North Dakota. I explained to the client that while the plane had boots, I'd be treating it as a VFR aircraft since the area I was transiting is known for serious icing. No problems either when taking another SEP from Seattle to Ontario during winter. It's almost as if most people take this seriously and aren't the dumb-asses you think we are.
So you were a brand new CPL when you did this ?


In any case your experience has not been my experience when ferrying airplanes. The airplanes I ended up ferrying all had issues and there was always time constraints. One was such a shyte show I abandoned it at the first stop and flew home on my own dime.

And I don't doubt you one bit. My point was that not all ferry flying is difficult and dangerous. I know why ferrying has such reputation, but its not all like that and plenty of it is quite easy and manageable by lower experienced pilots. Hell, a 300NM trip can be a ferry job and a CPL student has to demonstrate that.
Of course it could be easy and fun, but that I would suggest is very much the exception because the plane is, in my experience very unlikely to be as nice as the one you described and winter weather is likely going to be a challenge on at least part of the route.

The last ferry flight I was involved in was mentoring a 200 hr PPL in getting his airplane from Calgary to the West Coast in the middle of winter. It took 2 months to get a weather window I was happy enough with to tell him to go get the airplane he just bought. If he had a fresh CPL my recommendation would not have been any different. His flight was easy and fun, but you don’t get 2 months to wait for weather suitable for a low time pilot in very many ferry jobs….
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”