It's Time

[flyinhigh]

All we need to do is look at how Jazz has fared in the past five years. They’ve got a “contract” with a reputable union and still face the realities of supply and demand. So my question is this, what will their union do to protect them from EIC becoming the next and only AC express carrier?

In my opinion, aside from the current protections allocated under Canadian labour laws, there is nothing they can do to change the fundamentals of capitalism but I am open to discussion.

Such a poor comparison. I am still trying to figure out why everyone compares to Jazz, a company that is locked into a cut throat, single client contract. Anyone who complains about Jazz hasn't really worked under their CBA. That CBA has some of the strongest language in Canada, period. Yes the Salary is weak, but the benefits, the clear language with ZERO loopholes is solid.

How about we start to compare to the larger companies that we are competing with, you know the ones that get that shiny bench mark.

There is so much more to organizing than saying not now. It takes time to organize and get a first deal. Time Porter pilot rise up and realize we are all a cog in Deluce's wheel to which we will all be solid out in a nano second to the highest bidder. It's business after all and they have been at this for a long time.

As for the comments on the pay bumps, lets not forget when we started this program we were making 123K and could not find/fill groundschools, next pay it went up and still could not fill groundschools. Now we are the lowest paid, so economics states we need a bump or be left behind. These are business decisions that will be made regardless of organizing or not. If they do not adjust the expansion plan will fall apart which means they need us more than we need them, as has been indicated before.

Additionally, there is more to life than money. How about our QOL which is garbage right now. We have seen steady declines in our POLICY manual, such as a THREE WEEK WAIT for the release of our schedule, Lose of commuter protections, Manual manipulation of our schedules before they are released, but Yes they have our interests at heart.

[Realitychex]

Life is good with industry low utilization, long ASL's, fat block times and leisurely RON's, all resulting in great OTP.

Easy peasy. Everyone's happy. Except the accountants.

This won't last. Operating a fleet of 42 (currently), near new, high capital cost jets under 7hrs per tail per day, (and I've seen plenty sub 6hr days in recent weeks) with as many as 11 tails parked daily is not economically sustainable.

What do things look like when the operation has to run as efficiently as the other carriers in the marketplace? What do those conditions look like?

That's what I'd be thinking about.

A friend of mine's son left the Porter E2 operation after 6 months. He reports that 5 of 20 in the current class are ex Porter E2 pilots.

[hithere]

I hear that PAL now doing transborder flying also

Heard PAL going into EWR the other day from YHZ so they are indeed doing Jazz flying. Don't forget that Jazz also got their Porter-sized raises on the backs of losing half their flow to AC. It's amazing what they had to give up just to get something we get in a benchmark. What is the benefit of ALPA again?

No one that was on the property at Jazz in August 2023(when the last pay bump was voted on)lost anything regarding flow to AC. Those pilots are all grandfathered with the 60% flow.
The only entity that “lost” anything when flow was cut to 30% for Sept 2023 onwards was Jazz management, since now they have even more difficulty attracting Captain ready candidates to come here. As a result, Jazz has basically stopped hiring because they have way too many FOs and not nearly enough Captains. That situation should eventually help the Jazz pilots as the only way to fix the problem is to increase wages once again.
As far as Porter becoming unionized, it is often only during a downturn that pilots regret not having unionized. By then however it’s too late.
Spirit just announced more furloughs and downgrades. And that is during the current “boom times”. We are only ever one 9/11, COVID V2, or recession away from the bottom falling out of the industry. Aviation is always the first industry to react and the last industry to recover, from an economic downturn. Remember that as you do your union card drive, and good luck.

[cjp]

Life is good with industry low utilization, long ASL's, fat block times and leisurely RON's, all resulting in great OTP.

Easy peasy. Everyone's happy. Except the accountants.

This won't last. Operating a fleet of 42 (currently), near new, high capital cost jets under 7hrs per tail per day, (and I've seen plenty sub 6hr days in recent weeks) with as many as 11 tails parked daily is not economically sustainable.

The biggest challenge is finding crews. We need the manpower - if we could convert the Dash side entirely into the E2 it would solve our problems for the next 12 months. It would be great to increase the utilization, but the jets don't quite fly themselves. This is where a union would come in handy - transition or reduction and I will agree it comes down to language.

It's a chicken or the egg situation right now, what needs to come first: Profit or pay to keep the wheels turning.

[TPP]

Porters leadership has systematically raised our pay rates which is great.

At the same time during our biggest need for pilots systematically decreased QOL in hopes that the raises keep the pitchforks and union drive at bay.

We are so far behind WJ and ACs QOL and benefits we arnt even in the same universe.

I'm tired of trading money for QOL and want proper representation for when the music stops. The time for a union for anyone wanting to stay at Porter is now.

[rudder]

Do the Porter pilots really believe that they are going to get a benchmark pay adjustment and then unionize looking for more?

If I was Porter management - and I believed that pilot unionization was unenviable - I would offer zero and let the pilots sign the cards. Wages and working conditions would be dealt with at the bargaining table subject to the first CBA including a potential arbitration outcome provided for in the Labour Code.

The koolaid only lasts so long. Just ask any WJ pilot.

Hiring is slowing down everywhere. Options are less than 12-24 months ago. A threat to resign means a lot less than it used to.

The issue for Porter remains attracting experienced pilots. Organic pilot supply will not accommodate either expansion nor pilot attrition.

[goingnowherefast]

Do the Porter pilots really believe that they are going to get a benchmark pay adjustment and then unionize looking for more?

If I was Porter management - and I believed that pilot unionization was unenviable - I would offer zero and let the pilots sign the cards. Wages and working conditions would be dealt with at the bargaining table subject to the first CBA including a potential arbitration outcome provided for in the Labour Code.

The koolaid only lasts so long. Just ask any WJ pilot.

Hiring is slowing down everywhere. Options are less than 12-24 months ago. A threat to resign means a lot less than it used to.

The issue for Porter remains attracting experienced pilots. Organic pilot supply will not accommodate either expansion nor pilot attrition.

If management wants to grow the airline and expand, the wages need to keep up. Union or no union, its also in MANAGEMENT'S best interest to keep wages growing to keep up with their ambitious growth plans. No bums in seats, the shiny new jets get parked.

Pilot shortage means management will start to look at other options to staff planes. You got a scope clause that ensures only Porter pilots, and not contract pilots are flying the planes? Need a CBA for that too (exceptions for manufacturer pilots when bringing on a new type).

[propstojets]

Life is good with industry low utilization, long ASL's, fat block times and leisurely RON's, all resulting in great OTP.

Easy peasy. Everyone's happy. Except the accountants.

This won't last. Operating a fleet of 42 (currently), near new, high capital cost jets under 7hrs per tail per day, (and I've seen plenty sub 6hr days in recent weeks) with as many as 11 tails parked daily is not economically sustainable.

What do things look like when the operation has to run as efficiently as the other carriers in the marketplace? What do those conditions look like?

That's what I'd be thinking about.

A friend of mine's son left the Porter E2 operation after 6 months. He reports that 5 of 20 in the current class are ex Porter E2 pilots.

What website do you get this utilization data from?

[8895]

Life is good with industry low utilization, long ASL's, fat block times and leisurely RON's, all resulting in great OTP.

Easy peasy. Everyone's happy. Except the accountants.

This won't last. Operating a fleet of 42 (currently), near new, high capital cost jets under 7hrs per tail per day, (and I've seen plenty sub 6hr days in recent weeks) with as many as 11 tails parked daily is not economically sustainable.

What do things look like when the operation has to run as efficiently as the other carriers in the marketplace? What do those conditions look like?

That's what I'd be thinking about.

A friend of mine's son left the Porter E2 operation after 6 months. He reports that 5 of 20 in the current class are ex Porter E2 pilots.

“High capital cost jets”…. Elaborate

[TheStig]

As someone under 30 sitting right seat in the E2, hoping to spend the rest of my career here, the long term outlook without protection petrifies me. If we get sold off to some Bay Street bros so the deluces and pension funds can make out like bandits while the position I invested my career in drastically changes, I’ve got a problem with that. I will happily go make more money and let the pension funds work for me at AC if I don’t have that long term protection while the lights are on here.

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

Looks like you're starting to figure things out on your own.

[TheStig]

Life is good with industry low utilization, long ASL's, fat block times and leisurely RON's, all resulting in great OTP.

Easy peasy. Everyone's happy. Except the accountants.

This won't last. Operating a fleet of 42 (currently), near new, high capital cost jets under 7hrs per tail per day, (and I've seen plenty sub 6hr days in recent weeks) with as many as 11 tails parked daily is not economically sustainable.

What do things look like when the operation has to run as efficiently as the other carriers in the marketplace? What do those conditions look like?

That's what I'd be thinking about.

A friend of mine's son left the Porter E2 operation after 6 months. He reports that 5 of 20 in the current class are ex Porter E2 pilots.

“High capital cost jets”…. Elaborate

Brand new jets cost more than used ones. Whether owned or leased they cost more capital every month to own, while their hourly operating costs such as maintenance and fuel burn are lower. Most airlines operate their newest aircraft more hours per day to offset their higher fixed cost. I don't know the figures between for example: a 737NG and an E2, but AC operates both brand new 787's and used A330's for this reason, the extra 500kg/hr burn on the A330 is offset by the fact that they have 1/3rd the monthly lease cost. Despite burning less fuel, the 787 can cost more to operate on certain routes.

Porter doesn't do as much red-eye flying as AC, WJ and Flair, what Realitychex is suggesting is that once Porter starts focusing on achieving higher fleet utilization, pilots will notice their QOL changing.

[8895]

As someone under 30 sitting right seat in the E2, hoping to spend the rest of my career here, the long term outlook without protection petrifies me. If we get sold off to some Bay Street bros so the deluces and pension funds can make out like bandits while the position I invested my career in drastically changes, I’ve got a problem with that. I will happily go make more money and let the pension funds work for me at AC if I don’t have that long term protection while the lights are on here.

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

Looks like you're starting to figure things out on your own.

And yet I’m still here

[cdnavater]

As someone under 30 sitting right seat in the E2, hoping to spend the rest of my career here, the long term outlook without protection petrifies me. If we get sold off to some Bay Street bros so the deluces and pension funds can make out like bandits while the position I invested my career in drastically changes, I’ve got a problem with that. I will happily go make more money and let the pension funds work for me at AC if I don’t have that long term protection while the lights are on here.

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

Looks like you're starting to figure things out on your own.

And yet I’m still here

It’s cute that you just assume AC would hire you!

[Landingstrip]

Looks like you're starting to figure things out on your own.

And yet I’m still here

It’s cute that you just assume AC would hire you!

Do you always have to be a douchebag? Do you have a mental disorder?

[CaptDukeNukem]

I hear that PAL now doing transborder flying also

Heard PAL going into EWR the other day from YHZ so they are indeed doing Jazz flying. Don't forget that Jazz also got their Porter-sized raises on the backs of losing half their flow to AC. It's amazing what they had to give up just to get something we get in a benchmark. What is the benefit of ALPA again?

Pins, and lanyards. Lots of them.

[braaap Braap]

www.porterpilotsforchange.ca

Exciting stuff!! Glad to see things are moving forward. Obviously grateful to the current FOAG reps and management for the foundation that they've laid through the FOAG committee but I'm looking forward to the stability and protections that come from a CBA, joining the collective of our peers and getting off AG's crazy train experiment.

[cdnavater]

And yet I’m still here

It’s cute that you just assume AC would hire you!

Do you always have to be a douchebag? Do you have a mental disorder?

Not sure but you would have to go over the history of all conversations between 8895 and myself to see who provoked who, goes back a ways, I’m not even sure anymore.
Have a nice day with your judgement!

[Landingstrip]

It’s cute that you just assume AC would hire you!

Do you always have to be a douchebag? Do you have a mental disorder?

Not sure but you would have to go over the history of all conversations between 8895 and myself to see who provoked who, goes back a ways, I’m not even sure anymore.
Have a nice day with your judgement!

Okay I may have lacked context. Fair point!

[CaptDukeNukem]

Don’t know about 8895. But me an Cdnavater have a love/hate thing going. Maybe he hates me more than love, but he’s mostly okay. Friendly competition didn’t hurt anyone.

It’s also an anonymous online forum, so pull up the big boy pants and if you dish it, then be willing to answer back

[cdnavater]

Don’t know about 8895. But me an Cdnavater have a love/hate thing going. Maybe he hates me more than love, but he’s mostly okay. Friendly competition didn’t hurt anyone.

It’s also an anonymous online forum, so pull up the big boy pants and if you dish it, then be willing to answer back

Today, it’s more love!
Hope things are well!

[Mac08]

Life is good with industry low utilization, long ASL's, fat block times and leisurely RON's, all resulting in great OTP.

Easy peasy. Everyone's happy. Except the accountants.

This won't last. Operating a fleet of 42 (currently), near new, high capital cost jets under 7hrs per tail per day, (and I've seen plenty sub 6hr days in recent weeks) with as many as 11 tails parked daily is not economically sustainable.

What do things look like when the operation has to run as efficiently as the other carriers in the marketplace? What do those conditions look like?

That's what I'd be thinking about.

A friend of mine's son left the Porter E2 operation after 6 months. He reports that 5 of 20 in the current class are ex Porter E2 pilots.

What website do you get this utilization data from?

Wouldn't exactly look a lot into it. Disgraced Mark Hill aka RealityChex get's his rocks off to the idea of Porter failing so his 15 year old prediction of them going under is correct.

[8895]

Life is good with industry low utilization, long ASL's, fat block times and leisurely RON's, all resulting in great OTP.

Easy peasy. Everyone's happy. Except the accountants.

This won't last. Operating a fleet of 42 (currently), near new, high capital cost jets under 7hrs per tail per day, (and I've seen plenty sub 6hr days in recent weeks) with as many as 11 tails parked daily is not economically sustainable.

What do things look like when the operation has to run as efficiently as the other carriers in the marketplace? What do those conditions look like?

That's what I'd be thinking about.

A friend of mine's son left the Porter E2 operation after 6 months. He reports that 5 of 20 in the current class are ex Porter E2 pilots.

“High capital cost jets”…. Elaborate

Brand new jets cost more than used ones. Whether owned or leased they cost more capital every month to own, while their hourly operating costs such as maintenance and fuel burn are lower. Most airlines operate their newest aircraft more hours per day to offset their higher fixed cost. I don't know the figures between for example: a 737NG and an E2, but AC operates both brand new 787's and used A330's for this reason, the extra 500kg/hr burn on the A330 is offset by the fact that they have 1/3rd the monthly lease cost. Despite burning less fuel, the 787 can cost more to operate on certain routes.

Porter doesn't do as much red-eye flying as AC, WJ and Flair, what Realitychex is suggesting is that once Porter starts focusing on achieving higher fleet utilization, pilots will notice their QOL changing.

Thanks for the explanation but I guess the sarcasm wasn’t apparent. With how cheap the E2’s were supposedly bought I was poking fun at jimbo (he uses realitychex on here vs airliners.net) for conveniently leaving that part out.

[8895]

Looks like you're starting to figure things out on your own.

And yet I’m still here

It’s cute that you just assume AC would hire you!

It’s cute of you to assume I’ve even applied! Less qualified individuals then me have gotten the privilege of FlYiNg ThE fLaG for poverty pay

You really need to make it less obvious that you’re a bitter jazz lifer, you’re in no position to be throwing that kind of shade around

[cdnavater]

And yet I’m still here

It’s cute that you just assume AC would hire you!

It’s cute of you to assume I’ve even applied! Less qualified individuals then me have gotten the privilege of FlYiNg ThE fLaG for poverty pay

You really need to make it less obvious that you’re a bitter jazz lifer, you’re in no position to be throwing that kind of shade around

I’m actually not bitter about my lot in life, I have a great job and great home life, thanks for your concern!

[GIVCE!]

Just for fun, since these things usually come from way ‘left field’….what about a merger of Jazz and Porter? Step back to the BiG Pic for a second. From a company perspective. Lots of pilots. Jazz just sold Falko and sitting on a mountain of cash. Porter E2’s ready and waiting to be flown. Deluces sold out before(Austin). Just theorizing, so ‘ never say never’. Happy Sunday and good luck with or without a union drive. We are all stronger a ONE.
G