Moonlighting while at AC

[Flyboy736]

Got to take that early upgrade but who knows how long that will last. My guess is things slow down in the next 2 years with a possible recession on the horizon.

I thought that if you got an upgrade you have it for life unless there bid off or unless there is a layoff. I assume you are talking about layoff when you say you don't know how long it will last....?

Or can you be sent back to a yr3 (or whatever) FO spot?

If there is a reduction in captain positions due to downsizing you can get booted off the captain list and find yourself back as FO. An example of this if there was a worldwide recession (from say Trump's tariffs) they might accelerate 320 retirements, perhaps the original 8 330s etc

[altiplano]

It is absolutely ludacris to say they "made out better than everyone else" when it simply horse shit. Look at the metrics.

Except it's true. Sure, they had a bigger hole to pull out of and they didn't get all the way out. But like math and stuff, year 1-4 saw the biggest relative gains. Not to mention the number of junior guys I saw lapping up the draft flying flowing down the list to them...

Nobody got enough. I voted No.

I'm hearing ideas that all the other steps and positions should have got even less to subsidize year 1-4 more. But that's also the position the year 1-4 guy is going to be in next year or the next and for the rest of their careers.

That's a bullshit place to direct your guns. Point it at the top and your HR-speak... "Win as one" pals and get ready for 2027. And tell your reps and your friends that we need to up our game starting in 2026. That's only 1 year away. The year before the contract talks start it's fly your block, only your block, and expect the same of the guy next to you.

You want to fix it. You want to go the rest of the way. That is what it takes. You want United PCP? Act like United pilots. No lanyard, no pin, no respect.

[khedrei]

It is absolutely ludacris to say they "made out better than everyone else" when it simply horse shit. Look at the metrics.

Except it's true. Sure, they had a bigger hole to pull out of and they didn't get all the way out. But like math and stuff, year 1-4 saw the biggest relative gains. Not to mention the number of junior guys I saw lapping up the draft flying flowing down the list to them...

Nobody got enough. I voted No.

I'm hearing ideas that all the other steps and positions should have got even less to subsidize year 1-4 more. But that's also the position the year 1-4 guy is going to be in next year or the next and for the rest of their careers.

That's a bullshit place to direct your guns. Point it at the top and your HR-speak... "Win as one" pals and get ready for 2027. And tell your reps and your friends that we need to up our game starting in 2026. That's only 1 year away. The year before the contract talks start it's fly your block, only your block, and expect the same of the guy next to you.

You want to fix it. You want to go the rest of the way. That is what it takes. You want United PCP? Act like United pilots. No lanyard, no pin, no respect.

Year 1-4 did the best and had the biggest gains??

Hmm.. let's see, year 1 got 20k raise. Year 12 captain got approx 100k raise.

But yeah 20k > 100k

I know what you're going to say... you can save it. When i go to apply for a mortgage the bank doesn't care that my income in 30% more than it was last year. They don't ask that. They ask how much it is. Only in your magical world does 20k mean more than 100k because the % is bigger. % doesn't buy anything. Raw numbers do.

[CaliforniaDreamin]

It is absolutely ludacris to say they "made out better than everyone else" when it simply horse shit. Look at the metrics.

Except it's true. Sure, they had a bigger hole to pull out of and they didn't get all the way out. But like math and stuff, year 1-4 saw the biggest relative gains. Not to mention the number of junior guys I saw lapping up the draft flying flowing down the list to them...

"Relative Gains"

A 777C got a $100 a hour raise
A 320F got a $22 a hour raise.

That is nearly 4 times in money. The stuff that pay bills.

You are obviously referencing the 34% vs 24%.

Percentages don't feed your kids.

I don't think anyone believes the B777C should make less...but when you look at percentage of Captain pay to other airlines...it is crystal clear FOs got fcked.

Worst part is that it is the cheapest to fix as they are essentially short term pay scales. You don't stay for long.

Problem is the company knows the hiring forecast and knows it can shave off say $50 million by simply saying no to helping junior pay.

They sell it that why do you guys care...fck those junior losers like we have for the last 20 yrs. New union guys were too weak to stand up against this tried & true tactic and voila...ACPA is reborn with shitting on the junior pilots and the old "Company wouldn't go for it" or the true gas lighting..."the company sees no pilot shortage". I can't believe people trust anything these guys say. They will spout off anything to save a buck.

Grossest part was seeing ALPA use the "2 jobs" stat to obtain more gains for pilots with 1 job. Total fail.

[BillytheKid]

Airbus A220 - First Officer
Hourly Annual Salary (Annual USD)
Year 1 87.48 78,732 ($56,000)
Year 2 94.81 85,329 ($61,000)
Year 3 116.17 104,553 ($75,000)
Year 4 124.17 111,753 ($80,000)
Year 5 159.64 143,676 ($102,000)
Year 6 165.57 149,013 ($106,000)
Year 7 171.60 154,440 ($110,000)
Year 8 177.74 159,966 ($114,000)
Year 9 183.99 165,591 ($118,000)
Year 10 190.34 171,306 ($122,000)
Year 11 196.80 177,120 ($126,000)
Year 12 203.38 183,042 ($130,000)

How does this compare to Delta / United / JetBlue etc

They make about double when you compare with today's exchange rate.

There are also large quality of life differences in the contract with the US Airlines far ahead.

Then why did Air Canada pilots agree to that? Don't they have a union? Seems so 2nd class to agree to this.

[Canadianpilot2024]

They agreed to it because of final offer selection and what happened in 2011 and 2001. The mec presenting the deal, and the mec chair saying she’d step down if we voted it down.

Basically a whole pile of fear and what if’s was sold to the pilots. And a lot of individuals saw significant financial gains.

We were screwed as soon as is was presented. Too many guys had PTSD from previous contracts to vote no to anything, and the company knows that.

[altiplano]

We agree on a lot it seems, but we're going to have to differ on this.

Year 1-4 didn't get thrown under the bus, they saw the biggest relative gains. I guess you had to be at AC over the previous 15 years to really understand what junior pilots thrown under the bus looks like.

Junior pilots this year also saw the biggest improvements in pension, gdip, scheduling and more

But expecting the same actual realized dollar amount increase as a 777 CA is delusional.

It didn't get all the way PCP in years 2-4 this round. So like I said, start getting ready now to go get the rest. You are going to have to start acting like you want it now really, and expect it from your colleagues.

We all got shorted. Remember that every time you go to work.

[Canadianpilot2024]

Everyone saw delta/united comparable pay increases expect years 1-4

Key words: except years 1-4.

Off memory, I believe most US carriers go off formula pay after year 1. AC fo’s should be around $120k year 2 (hawaiin is $190k USD year 2) not $87k or whatever it is (based off 900 hours)

Seems like some pilots were left out of this WCC movement.

Call it what you want.

We ALL got shortchanged on everything else.

[CaliforniaDreamin]

We agree on a lot it seems, but we're going to have to differ on this.

Year 1-4 didn't get thrown under the bus, they saw the biggest relative gains. I guess you had to be at AC over the previous 15 years to really understand what junior pilots thrown under the bus looks like.

Junior pilots this year also saw the biggest improvements in pension, gdip, scheduling and more

But expecting the same actual realized dollar amount increase as a 777 CA is delusional.

It didn't get all the way PCP in years 2-4 this round. So like I said, start getting ready now to go get the rest. You are going to have to start acting like you want it now really, and expect it from your colleagues.

We all got shorted. Remember that every time you go to work.

You must be a widebody captain because you don't read or listen.

No one is saying junior pilots were getting $100k raises

BUT it was expected that flat pay would be gone. Murray was saying it in PIT classes. The MOA that was voted down had flat pay down to 2 years.

And somehow this MEC puked out 4 yrs of flat pay.

You do realize junior pilots don't have a DB pension?

That is the largest concession there is.

Anyone who knows anything about pensions wants a defined benefit pension over a target benefit pension.

It's literally in the words - "target" instead of "defined"

And not sure how junior pilots benefited better with scheduling & gdip.

[altiplano]

We agree on a lot it seems, but we're going to have to differ on this.

Year 1-4 didn't get thrown under the bus, they saw the biggest relative gains. I guess you had to be at AC over the previous 15 years to really understand what junior pilots thrown under the bus looks like.

Junior pilots this year also saw the biggest improvements in pension, gdip, scheduling and more

But expecting the same actual realized dollar amount increase as a 777 CA is delusional.

It didn't get all the way PCP in years 2-4 this round. So like I said, start getting ready now to go get the rest. You are going to have to start acting like you want it now really, and expect it from your colleagues.

We all got shorted. Remember that every time you go to work.

You must be a widebody captain because you don't read or listen.

No one is saying junior pilots were getting $100k raises

BUT it was expected that flat pay would be gone. Murray was saying it in PIT classes. The MOA that was voted down had flat pay down to 2 years.

And somehow this MEC puked out 4 yrs of flat pay.

You do realize junior pilots don't have a DB pension?

That is the largest concession there is.

Anyone who knows anything about pensions wants a defined benefit pension over a target benefit pension.

It's literally in the words - "target" instead of "defined"

And not sure how junior pilots benefited better with scheduling & gdip.

Jeesus... Hardly a WB CA. And I read and listen well.

You also don't understand the TBP well if you still think the DB is better after this round.

Like I said... typical AC pilot that doesn't understand the contract or history... off you go to bitch and complain and do some more VO.

[Protonpilot]

You do realize junior pilots don't have a DB pension?

That is the largest concession there is.

Anyone who knows anything about pensions wants a defined benefit pension over a target benefit pension.

It's literally in the words - "target" instead of "defined"

And not sure how junior pilots benefited better with scheduling & gdip.

Those comments are telegraphing a real lack of understanding of pensions, in particular AC pilots' history with DB pensions.

Ask a DB member how 'defined' our DB plan felt after the concessions in FOS 2012: higher contributions, no increases to the cap, no indexation, early retirement penalties. Anyone who lived through our DB pension crisis knew that reopening our single employer DB plan after 2012 was never a possibility.

CWIPP is a multi-employer DB plan that operates under target funding rules, that's quoting directly from their website. For a pilot, the big difference is CWIPP is based on career earnings instead of your best five. With CWIPP you have to earn the pension by working for it. Can you live with that, and accept that if you stay a RP for ten years and a FO for another ten years then you're going to have a lower pension than someone who bids the left seat after 5 or 10 years? Aside from the final average earnings formula, on just about every other level, CWIPP comes out ahead in my books.

The GDIP improvement for CWIPP members is that they don't have to contribute to their pension anymore during their absence. That was a big one, and only directed at junior members. Now they're treated the same as DB members when on GDIP.

[CaliforniaDreamin]

You do realize junior pilots don't have a DB pension?

That is the largest concession there is.

Anyone who knows anything about pensions wants a defined benefit pension over a target benefit pension.

It's literally in the words - "target" instead of "defined"

And not sure how junior pilots benefited better with scheduling & gdip.

Those comments are telegraphing a real lack of understanding of pensions, in particular AC pilots' history with DB pensions.

Ask a DB member how 'defined' our DB plan felt after the concessions in FOS 2012: higher contributions, no increases to the cap, no indexation, early retirement penalties. Anyone who lived through our DB pension crisis knew that reopening our single employer DB plan after 2012 was never a possibility.

CWIPP is a multi-employer DB plan that operates under target funding rules, that's quoting directly from their website. For a pilot, the big difference is CWIPP is based on career earnings instead of your best five. With CWIPP you have to earn the pension by working for it. Can you live with that, and accept that if you stay a RP for ten years and a FO for another ten years then you're going to have a lower pension than someone who bids the left seat after 5 or 10 years? Aside from the final average earnings formula, on just about every other level, CWIPP comes out ahead in my books.

The GDIP improvement for CWIPP members is that they don't have to contribute to their pension anymore during their absence. That was a big one, and only directed at junior members. Now they're treated the same as DB members when on GDIP.

I'd say your post telegraphs your lack of understanding on negotiating.

You're telling me the way that instead of fixing the DB pension was we should introduce a new pension? What kind of mind @#$! is that?

The DB pension went from pension crisis in to massive over funding in a flick of switch. The government changed the calculation of the valuation of DB pensions December
2020. They introduced new standards for calculating commuted values with changes to the interest rate assumption and the pension commencement age assumption. How long is the "pension holiday" going to go on for?

Now we have to negotiate two different pensions and there is no way a proper DB pension will ever not beat out a Target Benefit pension. Remember, this CWIPP pension is relatively new. Hardly tried & true and there are a lot of assumptions that tax laws won't change. Ask WestJet why they did NOT go with CWIPP. Answer - their experts advised AGAINST it.

If you actually look closely what you put in for a DB Pension and what you get out vs CWIPP, I assure you DB wins.

And your other big assumption is the pace of career progression will continue. A massive piece to the puzzle and after an episode like Covid, seems foolish. What will the next crisis be? When does reduced crew operations (RCO) start playing a role? What about an economic crisis? DB with best 5 yrs will being crushing pretty quick.

And good point about GDIP for CWIPP, definitely a gain.

But again..its because we have 2 pension plans that this "gain" had to be negotiated...so...

[scdriver]

Are you allowed to get a part-time job flying while employed as flight crew at AC?

TIA

I know 2 guys at AC that do a bit of float flying in the summer.

[30westpirate]

You do realize junior pilots don't have a DB pension?

That is the largest concession there is.

Anyone who knows anything about pensions wants a defined benefit pension over a target benefit pension.

It's literally in the words - "target" instead of "defined"

And not sure how junior pilots benefited better with scheduling & gdip.

Those comments are telegraphing a real lack of understanding of pensions, in particular AC pilots' history with DB pensions.

Ask a DB member how 'defined' our DB plan felt after the concessions in FOS 2012: higher contributions, no increases to the cap, no indexation, early retirement penalties. Anyone who lived through our DB pension crisis knew that reopening our single employer DB plan after 2012 was never a possibility.

CWIPP is a multi-employer DB plan that operates under target funding rules, that's quoting directly from their website. For a pilot, the big difference is CWIPP is based on career earnings instead of your best five. With CWIPP you have to earn the pension by working for it. Can you live with that, and accept that if you stay a RP for ten years and a FO for another ten years then you're going to have a lower pension than someone who bids the left seat after 5 or 10 years? Aside from the final average earnings formula, on just about every other level, CWIPP comes out ahead in my books.

The GDIP improvement for CWIPP members is that they don't have to contribute to their pension anymore during their absence. That was a big one, and only directed at junior members. Now they're treated the same as DB members when on GDIP.

I'd say your post telegraphs your lack of understanding on negotiating.

You're telling me the way that instead of fixing the DB pension was we should introduce a new pension? What kind of mind @#$! is that?

The DB pension went from pension crisis in to massive over funding in a flick of switch. The government changed the calculation of the valuation of DB pensions December
2020. They introduced new standards for calculating commuted values with changes to the interest rate assumption and the pension commencement age assumption. How long is the "pension holiday" going to go on for?

Now we have to negotiate two different pensions and there is no way a proper DB pension will ever not beat out a Target Benefit pension. Remember, this CWIPP pension is relatively new. Hardly tried & true and there are a lot of assumptions that tax laws won't change. Ask WestJet why they did NOT go with CWIPP. Answer - their experts advised AGAINST it.

If you actually look closely what you put in for a DB Pension and what you get out vs CWIPP, I assure you DB wins.

And your other big assumption is the pace of career progression will continue. A massive piece to the puzzle and after an episode like Covid, seems foolish. What will the next crisis be? When does reduced crew operations (RCO) start playing a role? What about an economic crisis? DB with best 5 yrs will being crushing pretty quick.

And good point about GDIP for CWIPP, definitely a gain.

But again..its because we have 2 pension plans that this "gain" had to be negotiated...so...

No employee group, unionized or non-union including executives have a DB pension at AC. The pilots were the last group to hold on to it until 2012, when with the help of the conservative government forcing FOS got rid of the DB pension for new hires.

The company won’t entertain the idea of re-introducing a DB pension even while enjoying a funding holiday, because the investment groups don’t like it's uncertainties.

A great deal of bargaining capital was used during the 3 re-openers of the 10 year deal to come to the current iteration of the CWIPP plan. Every re-opener something was traded to improve the CWIPP plan.

If you’re hired young, under 30 the current projections of the CWIPP plan are considerably higher payouts than the DB. Some have projections of over $300k in retirement while the DB with max years of service caps out at $198k.

[Protonpilot]

The DB pension went from pension crisis in to massive over funding in a flick of switch. The government changed the calculation of the valuation of DB pensions December 2020. They introduced new standards for calculating commuted values with changes to the interest rate assumption and the pension commencement age assumption. How long is the "pension holiday" going to go on for?

Flick of a switch? Once again, you weren't here and it shows. All unions at Air Canada saw their DB plans closed in 2012 after a decade of funding crisis when the combined deficit peaked at $4B. There wasn't a whole lot of negotiating capital available.

CWIPP wasn't negotiated until 2017. These more friendly DB funding rules that you're talking about didn't appear until 2020, a little late to help us back then.

Remember, this CWIPP pension is relatively new. Hardly tried & true and there are a lot of assumptions that tax laws won't change.

CWIPP isn't new. It was founded in 1970 and the tax and pension law that govern its contribution limits have been in place since the late 1980s. Maybe tax laws will change... In the meantime, are you going to keep investing in your TFSA even though the NDP might terminate that kind of tax shelter (only rich people invest in TFSAs ) if they get elected as ruling party?

If you actually look closely what you put in for a DB Pension and what you get out vs CWIPP, I assure you DB wins.

It's an acknowledged fact and was discussed at the TA roadshow, you pay more into CWIPP in almost every career scenario. But you also get more out, and in a lot of cases the additional benefits paid far outweigh the additional contributions. I think if you ask the average DB member the one thing they wish they could do is contribute (and earn pension) above the current MPU limits.

[noreasterYHZ]

CWIPP is better than nothing but I don't get how people get so excited about it. There are absolutely no guarantees despite any glossy brochure. The plan was started by meat cutters and I'm not sure how it will work out in the long term for a higher pay profession like pilots. Let's just say I'm happy to be on DB.

This article is dated but it isn't all unicorns & rainbows about CWIPP:

Multi-employer pension plans aim for certain payout, but no guarantees

A pension is supposed to provide a stable foundation for a long retirement. But, in some cases, that foundation can be shakier than people realize.

The Canadian Commercial Workers Industry Pension Plan has just provided a disturbing reminder of the shocks that are possible.

CWIPP announced last month that the roughly 24,000 people who are collecting benefits from the plan will have their pensions cut by 10 per cent beginning in July, while those who are still working and contributing to the plan will suffer a 20-per-cent reduction in the pension benefits credited to them.

The benefit cuts at CWIPP, which covers nearly 400,000 people in the grocery, food service and production industries, should encourage all of us to learn more about our own pension plans. While the surging stock markets of recent years have been good news for plans' investment returns, today's low interest rates have worked in the opposite direction by increasing the amount of money required to fund future payouts.

The growing cost of providing retirement benefits has put pressure on pension plans. They have responded in various ways – from increasing contribution rates, to curtailing new members, to cutting benefits – as they attempt to keep their promises in line with financial reality.

"These decisions [to reduce benefits] are never easy to make, but the reality is that we had a financial situation that needed to be addressed to maintain long-term stability," said Paul Meinema, national president of United Food and Commercial Workers Canada, which established CCWIPP in 1979.

Multi-employer plans such as CWIPP are vulnerable to benefit shocks because of their structure. They are typically found in unionized industries and span employees across many companies – more than 200 in the case of CWIPP.

Employers agree to contribute to the pension plan at a certain rate, but they make no commitments about the level of benefits those contributions will produce. If results fall short of what is hoped for, employers are not obligated to make up the difference.

Malcolm Hamilton, an actuary and retirement expert, says multi-employer plans can easily be misunderstood by those who are enrolled in them. They are often assumed to be just like defined-benefit plans that cover only a single company.

That's a mistake. In a defined-benefit plan, the employer commits to providing a certain level of retirement payout to plan members and must live up to that commitment so long as it is solvent. In contrast, multi-employer plans aim for a certain level of payouts, but don't guarantee them.

As Mr. Hamilton notes, it's difficult for administrators to communicate the uncertainty that is built into multi-employer plans. As a general rule, plan sponsors have little interest in aggressively warning members about the possibility their pensions may be lower than they think. And when warnings are issued, members often ignore them.

To be sure, it can be difficult for people without a financial background to come to a complete understanding of their pension plan's status, even if they dutifully read the plan's annual report.

The CWIPP had suffered one black eye in the past, although of a relatively minor nature. In 2009, the Ontario Court of Justice found nine of the plan's trustees guilty of failing to supervise the plan's investment committee, which made investments in Caribbean hotels and resorts that were larger than permitted by regulation in 2002 and 2003. Although there was no proof the fund suffered any financial loss as a result, the trustees were each fined $18,000.

By themselves, the plan's investment returns didn't appear to be a cause for great concern: They averaged a respectable 7.8 per cent from 1979 to 2013, and 8 per cent over the most recent five years of that span.

However, those results weren't sufficient to keep up with the plan's goals. At the end of 2012, the plan's annual report stated it was only 67-per-cent funded on a going-concern basis – in other words, assuming the plan were to continue indefinitely – and only 31-per-cent funded if the plan were to be wound up immediately.

The report assured readers that such deficiencies were "not uncommon" but also pledged to find solutions to provide the plan "with a more solid financial foundation."

Mr. Meinema attributes the plan's recent problems to the lingering impact of the financial crisis as well as the added cost of providing for increased longevity among plan members.

He says his priority is ensuring the viability of the plan for the long haul – a big job in an era of low interest rates.

"Not everyone is happy [with the benefit reductions], as you might expect," he acknowledges. "But most of our members are very happy the plan is being maintained."


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-i ... e24814598/

[Booming]

Wow hopefully that doesn't happen again to the cwipp pension. Definitely no guarantees with a target.

Pretty happy with MPU increases from the last round. Combine that with the $100k final few years pay increase for me, Im sitting pretty. Good luck!

[Protonpilot]

CWIPP is better than nothing but I don't get how people get so excited about it. There are absolutely no guarantees despite any glossy brochure. The plan was started by meat cutters and I'm not sure how it will work out in the long term for a higher pay profession like pilots. Let's just say I'm happy to be on DB.

This article is dated but it isn't all unicorns & rainbows about CWIPP:

Multi-employer pension plans aim for certain payout, but no guarantees

A pension is supposed to provide a stable foundation for a long retirement. But, in some cases, that foundation can be shakier than people realize.

The Canadian Commercial Workers Industry Pension Plan has just provided a disturbing reminder of the shocks that are possible.

That article is dated. It's also about a different pension plan.

Air Canada pilots are members of CWIPP, the Canada-Wide Industrial Pension Plan. Founded in 1970 by the Canadian Labour Congress.

The article you posted is about CCWIPP, the Canadian Commercial Workers Industry Pension Plan. Founded in 1979 by food service workers. Meat cutters, you called them.

Easy enough to get them confused.

[737Drver]

Yikes. That crisis with the Canadian Commercial Industry Wide Pension Plan sounded bad. I guess no multi-employer pension plan is guaranteed. Just a target.

Westjet went with CATT. They felt it was risky with the size of CWIPP (only 7000 active members) vs 55,000 with CATT. Plus the large payouts that they are promising with CWIPP have not really been tested. It is very possible the govt will see these large contributions and payouts and change the tax laws. Hopefully it works out for Air Canada pilots. A DB pension would have been the gold standard for sure for pilots!

[Flyboy736]

Those comments are telegraphing a real lack of understanding of pensions, in particular AC pilots' history with DB pensions.

Ask a DB member how 'defined' our DB plan felt after the concessions in FOS 2012: higher contributions, no increases to the cap, no indexation, early retirement penalties. Anyone who lived through our DB pension crisis knew that reopening our single employer DB plan after 2012 was never a possibility.

CWIPP is a multi-employer DB plan that operates under target funding rules, that's quoting directly from their website. For a pilot, the big difference is CWIPP is based on career earnings instead of your best five. With CWIPP you have to earn the pension by working for it. Can you live with that, and accept that if you stay a RP for ten years and a FO for another ten years then you're going to have a lower pension than someone who bids the left seat after 5 or 10 years? Aside from the final average earnings formula, on just about every other level, CWIPP comes out ahead in my books.

The GDIP improvement for CWIPP members is that they don't have to contribute to their pension anymore during their absence. That was a big one, and only directed at junior members. Now they're treated the same as DB members when on GDIP.

I'd say your post telegraphs your lack of understanding on negotiating.

You're telling me the way that instead of fixing the DB pension was we should introduce a new pension? What kind of mind @#$! is that?

The DB pension went from pension crisis in to massive over funding in a flick of switch. The government changed the calculation of the valuation of DB pensions December
2020. They introduced new standards for calculating commuted values with changes to the interest rate assumption and the pension commencement age assumption. How long is the "pension holiday" going to go on for?

Now we have to negotiate two different pensions and there is no way a proper DB pension will ever not beat out a Target Benefit pension. Remember, this CWIPP pension is relatively new. Hardly tried & true and there are a lot of assumptions that tax laws won't change. Ask WestJet why they did NOT go with CWIPP. Answer - their experts advised AGAINST it.

If you actually look closely what you put in for a DB Pension and what you get out vs CWIPP, I assure you DB wins.

And your other big assumption is the pace of career progression will continue. A massive piece to the puzzle and after an episode like Covid, seems foolish. What will the next crisis be? When does reduced crew operations (RCO) start playing a role? What about an economic crisis? DB with best 5 yrs will being crushing pretty quick.

And good point about GDIP for CWIPP, definitely a gain.

But again..its because we have 2 pension plans that this "gain" had to be negotiated...so...

No employee group, unionized or non-union including executives have a DB pension at AC. The pilots were the last group to hold on to it until 2012, when with the help of the conservative government forcing FOS got rid of the DB pension for new hires.

The company won’t entertain the idea of re-introducing a DB pension even while enjoying a funding holiday, because the investment groups don’t like it's uncertainties.

A great deal of bargaining capital was used during the 3 re-openers of the 10 year deal to come to the current iteration of the CWIPP plan. Every re-opener something was traded to improve the CWIPP plan.

If you’re hired young, under 30 the current projections of the CWIPP plan are considerably higher payouts than the DB. Some have projections of over $300k in retirement while the DB with max years of service caps out at $198k.

A under 30 year old with a 300k pension is going to have 150k in today's value assuming 2% annual inflation. That means the guy retiring g tomorrow with the DB pulling in 198k in today's dollars would have the upper leg.

In theory a 2012 AC DB might do worse, but with the over funded pension plan hopefully there will be room to goose them up. If I'm not mistaken all DB guys are seeing increases in the annual amount from the last negotiations

[altiplano]

The DB is a millstone tied around the pilots' necks.

Always forced to negotiate MPUs and terms surrounding it.
Give your money to AC to administer and profit with.
Rely on AC general revs for your SRP payout.
Meanwhile they pay nothing into it.

CWIPP pilots never need to ask AC for anything during their pension again other than pay raises and their pension increases to commensurate with that raise and contribution increase from the company.
CWIPP pension is all the members' money managed and kept clear of AC's fingers.
CWIPP pilot's have representation and the total say in how their pension is ran. AC pilots are now the large majority in that plan.

You want to be an RP your whole life and go get your best 5 before retirement for max pension, well CWIPP wasn't the best plan for you. But if you are going to have a normal career and progress through higher paying positions, become a Captain maybe sooner than later, you're going to come out way on top with CWIPP and it's your money whatever happens at AC.

[30westpirate]

In theory a 2012 AC DB might do worse, but with the over funded pension plan hopefully there will be room to goose them up. If I'm not mistaken all DB guys are seeing increases in the annual amount from the last negotiations
[/quote]

Last negotiation increase brought it to $198k it use to be $178k. Thats with 35+ years of service.

You don’t think future negotiations will increase benefits to the CWIPP plan?

[thepoors]

I'll stand by $ 90K a year until someone posts their 2024 T4 showing the quoted $78,372/year.

Are you literally retarded?

$87.48/hr @ 900hrs annual guarantee = $78k. That's the wage. Unless you're one of the dimwits arguing that per diems are part of your salary. Or even more likely, you were one of the many morons picking up VO during negots.

[altiplano]

$78K isn't "the wage":- $87.48/hr is and we are paid by the hour and I don't think anyone is doing 75 hour months every month.

Plus probably about 20 hours of training pay on top of blocks.

[Freshredmeat]

The DB is a millstone tied around the pilots' necks.

Always forced to negotiate MPUs and terms surrounding it.
Give your money to AC to administer and profit with.
Rely on AC general revs for your SRP payout.
Meanwhile they pay nothing into it.

CWIPP pilots never need to ask AC for anything during their pension again other than pay raises and their pension increases to commensurate with that raise and contribution increase from the company.
CWIPP pension is all the members' money managed and kept clear of AC's fingers.
CWIPP pilot's have representation and the total say in how their pension is ran. AC pilots are now the large majority in that plan.

You want to be an RP your whole life and go get your best 5 before retirement for max pension, well CWIPP wasn't the best plan for you. But if you are going to have a normal career and progress through higher paying positions, become a Captain maybe sooner than later, you're going to come out way on top with CWIPP and it's your money whatever happens at AC.

Any CWIPP pension isn't really your money either. It is CWIPP's. The only money that is yours is what is in your bank.

There are NO SOLVENCY requirements for a target benefit pension plan unlike a DB. This is a huge win for employers and massive loss for the employee. This means that benefits might need to be adjusted if the plan's funding position changes significantly.

Any number calculated for the CWIPP is like a IOU. Hopefully it is there but no guarantees.