1900 Gear Up

CloudCover · Post by **CloudCover** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:11 am

If you are short final, and SUDDENLY discover you are "too fast or too slow" I wonder what instruments you were staring at down final.... the oxygen gage?

Me think perhaps you may want to pay more attention to your airspeed indicator in a case like that. It is the one in the top left.

Spinner · Post by **Spinner** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:39 am

wow and I guess you practice a lot of dual engine feathered approaches huh?

Perhaps you should try it just to see who is right?

Better yet leave the gear up so you will have good stopping power.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:18 pm

I have featherd both props, and shut down the engines in the flair. Yes it saved alot more damage. The engines take alot less of a beating, and if you can save at least 2 blades (4 bladed prop) from getting completely destroyed. You gain about 10 KTS doing this and can easily find yourself ballooning and then in a low energy situation.
If it's a piston with only 2 blades, and you can get the blades horiziontal you have saved both prop and engine.

The first example was me, the second was a friend. Both cases damage was prevented. Just make damn sure your landing.

CloudCover · Post by **CloudCover** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:48 pm

Sounds like KAG has had some experience with it.

I think Spinner is having some panty bunching issues. That's ok Spin. I am sure you will feel better once you have proven yourself.

Spinner · Post by **Spinner** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:48 pm

sorry cloud but trading insults is not my bag.

and I don't have to prove anything to idots like you.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:52 pm

What is the big deal about landing one of these things with the props feathered?

CloudCover · Post by **CloudCover** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:13 pm

Thats fine. You can keep em. I don't feel like trading.

Please let me know if this upsets you. I can do this all day.

Looking4Higher · Post by **Looking4Higher** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:32 pm

Company is Eagle Airways in NZ. Eagle is tier 3 to Air New Zealand, sort of like how Georgian /CMA is to Air Canada (Tier 3).

I used to train their new hires for the initial 1900D course at FlightSafety Downsview. Really outstanding people and their FLT OPS staff was also really good to get along with as I recall.

I don't know the details of the incident but glad to see everyone got home to their families OK.

Cheers

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:36 pm

Come on cloud counter and spinner, help me understand why there can even be a discussion on landing with the props feathered.....

.....this is basic airmanship we are discussing and does not require any skills beyond the private pilot level.

What in fu.k am I missing here?

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:46 am

Cat Driver wrote: .....this is basic airmanship we are discussing and does not require any skills beyond the private pilot level.

Sorry but I never trained at the PPL level in a featherd twin. Come to think of it, I've not even done it to this day! I'd say it's something that should be discussed and experienced in a sim.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:59 am

We HAVE to fully feather one engine in multi training at the private level. and i've also feathered one engine in an emergency landing from a gear malfunction. luckily it was a short in the gear warning horn and lights not actually gear problem.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:33 am

Sorry but I never trained at the PPL level in a featherd twin. Come to think of it, I've not even done it to this day! I'd say it's something that should be discussed and experienced in a sim.

I don't have a sim avaliable so lets discuss it.

To land a 1900 with the props feathered you need to be able to do several things that require nothing more than basic flying skillls.

Decide when you have the landing assured for the runway you are landing on before feathering the props.

Once feathered you will have less drag than when landing with the throttles closed therefore you can expect a longer float period once flared for the landing with a given airspeed.

Basic flying skills will allow you to maintain the proper height during the airspeed decay period prior to touch down...to land in the correct attitude.

Am I missing something else here?

Snagmaster E · Post by **Snagmaster E** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:32 pm

2 props would be gone per side.

As for the engine, for sure they'll be tearing one down if they've struck a prop.

And doing it with a dual engine failure in the sim is no fun.

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:31 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Am I missing something else here?

Doesn't sound like it but when it comes down to taking care of business without any prior real world experience, you can talk all you want about what's gonna happen when.....

I've talked to a few workmates who have been through a dual feather and it's exactly like you described. They did get caught landing further down the runway but still made ok.

I guess the only to get out of this is that you'll land longer than you anticipate after the dual feather?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:44 pm

I guess the only to get out of this is that you'll land longer than you anticipate after the dual feather?

That is correct as long as the airspeed is the same as you normally use.

Once again all we are dealing with here is the ability to fly the airplane without using power for fine tuning the landing.

Remember any aircraft can be landed without power for instance the space shuttle is landed without power every landing. Some just require more attention to what you are doing.....the R22 is a good example when doing a full on autorotation because of the low inertia in the rotor blades.....

That is why generally speaking rotary wing pilots are better hands and feet pilots than their fixed wing brethern...it is because they have to be....

When doing type ratings on the Cat I do not allow them to use power in the last stages of the landings, by 200 feet they must be at zero thrust and the throttles closed before passing one hundred feet.....

..when they can fly the airplane and land it without power every time I then allow the use of power if they want to....funny thing they generally choose to do most landing with throttles closed...why fu.k around flying down the runway or water longer than you need to?

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:00 am

Closing the throttles on some planes is great but no so much in others. I don't care how good your hands and feet are, bring the power back to the stop on a metro II at 200 feet and they'll be digging you out short of the runway. Maybe the cat is a little more gentle?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:50 am

bring the power back to the stop on a metro II at 200 feet and they'll be digging you out short of the runway. Maybe the cat is a little more gentle?

I have not flown a Metro so can't really comment on how it would fly closing the throttles at 200 feet, do the props just go into high drag when you close the throttles? In that case you would need to be careful where you close the throttles.

Anyhow the wing does not know what the props are doing so as long as the airspeed remains the same the wing will produce the same lift.

But 200 feet really has nothing to do with landing with both throttles closed unles you feather at 200 feet and on a real long runway that would be O.K.

The Cat requires a nose pitch down of about 5 degrees to maintain air speed once you close the throttles, the reason I teach power off landings is to force them to flare at the proper height to complete the landing without the aid of power, especially on water where attitude on touch down is critical.

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:52 pm

metro to FX pull/stop feather shuts off fuel/feathers props. idle my ass with those props at high rpm they are most likely coming thru the fuselage on impact. BTW I used to have a prop blade from one of our metro's gearing it in YVR, outside 12 inches ground down /curled up and the props were most definitely in feather. Some skid stole it off my balcony along with my bike.

Spinner · Post by **Spinner** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:27 pm

funny how all this goes. I just saw a seminole due the belly landing in YQM and watching it did not see the props shut down until inches from touchdown.

they chose not to feather until last minute and I think (not 100% sure) both props struck the runway while rotating.

I am not saying that feathering is a bad thing just that you have to know and understand that it will float longer (most aircraft). I remember the video of the beech in the states that they touched down and ate up most of the runway before they stopped.

Let the debate continue. Maybe we should all practice them.

CloudCover · Post by **CloudCover** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:33 am

Hey look a change of opinion!

Big Pratt · Post by **Big Pratt** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:22 pm

linecrew wrote:

Big Pratt wrote:
...so it's a bit of a mute point.

So it's silent then? Razz

I think the expression is moot.

Sorry BP...we have a co-worker that keeps saying it the same way and we always razz him about it (jokingly of course). He has a good sense fo humour and a knack for botching expressions.

Once when wrapping up a meeting he combined "we're juggling all the balls at the same time" with "the wheels are in motion" and blurted out "okay boss my balls are in motion". Laughing

He he no harm done. I don't mind being corrected and mind it even less when I learn something.
English is my third language so bear with me

My favourite language induced "funny" was witnessed in a sim once when the exchange went something like this:

Asian fo: Airspeed undead
American cpt: Say what?
Asian fo: Airspeed is not dead anymore, it is moving.

Cheers

I Like Myself · Post by **I Like Myself** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:39 pm

Spinner wrote:I believe that even with the engines shut down the odds of not striking at least one blade on the runway is very slim.

It would be wonderful to be on short final with engines shut down and feathered and discover you are too fast or too slow and must overshoot. It probably makes the decision to feather your engines seem a little silly.

I don't see why the F/O couldn't have feathered them 50 feet or even 10 feet from the ground?
Seems to me even if it didn't save them much damage it would stop the hazard of flying props.
Either way, good job to the pilots on getting it down.

CP · Post by CP » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:28 am

[/quote]Snagmaster E

2 props would be gone per side.

Wow! A 4 engine 1900!