CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

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Widow
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Widow »

I suspect Mr. Gagne regrets his decisions that day. Like the Keystone case, the culture of the industry tends to quietly condone the breaking of rules. This is why SATOPS and TSB rec A01-01 need to be (re)addressed, finally. IMHO
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Romantic Lung »

DareDevil wrote:How similar does a tired pilot flying relate to an underpaid/depressed/de-moralized pilot?? if they want to change the work load, maybe they should look at changing the entire way pilots are treated...

Yeah.

Pilots and all wage workers, you god damned revolutionary! :)
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Meatservo »

Carrier wrote:Quote: "Canada lags behind other nations in flight regulation, meaning Canadian pilots are required to work long hours while traversing time zones."

Quote: "How similar does a tired pilot flying relate to an underpaid/depressed/de-moralized pilot?? if they want to change the work load, maybe they should look at changing the entire way pilots are treated..."
Right on!

Most professional pilots in Canada do not traverse time zones (plural) during their normal duties. Again there is this dumb fixation that all professional pilots are AIRLINE pilots. Doh!

The fundamental problem is not the current flight/duty hours limitations imposed by Transport Canada. It is their poor pay, along with abusive working conditions.

The vast majority of professional pilots who are not airline pilots and those at the bottom of the list in the airlines face a far worse problem than their TC duty limitations. Their pay is so poor that they have to take second jobs just to get by. This happens with airlines in the USA as evidenced by the situation of the Continental/Colgan Air pilots who crashed at Buffalo. It also happens in Canada. Just look at the starting pay for both Captains and F/Os at Central Mountain Air and similar airlines. How can anyone afford a reasonable basic apartment or house and support a family on that in Calgary, Toronto and Vancouver? Then add in for paying off their training loans and running a car.

Postmen, bus drivers, prison guards, customs officers, many truckers and police all have starting salaries that are considerably higher than that of an experienced Captain on a 19 pax commuter airliner. Those are starting salaries whereas the pilot would only become a Captain on a commuter airliner after several years of experience and moving up (?) the aviation food chain. Look at the differences in training and experience requirements, student loan costs and responsibility. Is something wrong?

Many professional pilots working for non-airline operators have to live ten to an apartment and sleep on the floor to get by. They struggle to keep their clunker cars working in order to be able to get to work, because there is inadequate or no 24 hour/day public transport to most airports. How will cutting their flight duty days by a couple of hours solve the inadequate pay problem?

As long as professional pilots are paid so poorly they will continue to need second jobs and be forced to live in conditions that are not conducive to good rest. They will have to continue to fly while tired and the travelling public will continue to be at risk.

Then there are the other conditions referred to in these threads: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63140 and viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63294 Tinkering with just the TC daily hours limit would be like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


Fu(kin' TESTIFY, brother! You and DareDevil are thinking along the same lines as me. A documentary about pilots being tired? *YAWN*... How about a better documentary, about how it really is for some of these guys. I've heard about suffering for your Art before, but no-one seems willing to acknowledge that flying IS an art anymore. Even most of the pilots on AvCanada.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by catan man »

The crap that has gone on in the company I work for takes the cake. I look like the bad guy in my managers eyes because I remain with dignity, and refuse to let them push me. Makes me sick. I love these quotes I've heard. Just go anyway. I need that plane home tonight. You are not to duty.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by catan man »

I forgot to mention the pilots here who will do anything if the big guy wants them too. When asked to, return the plane back to base knowing full well they are busting times. What is worse is they do this after being awake for 20hrs plus. Example. Fresh at 0700, woke up at 0900. Up all day. Going to bed at 2200 then get the call. Do 12hrs. Then told to return the plane. 3hrs flying time to go. I witnessed this again just last week.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by CanadianEh »

Is this CBC thing a Radio discussion or televised documentary?
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Widow »

Both.

Links to part one of the National (TV, part 2 tomorrow night) and the Current (radio) are both available on this page:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/03/ ... ue025.html
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by scopiton »

Catan man,
why dont you just send an email here ?
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/stand ... ntacts.htm
it works remarkably
notice, you have to be clear of violation if you do this
the amount of email sent about operators pushing to violate regs might help to make things change.
It is just a suggestion :smt096
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by CanadianEh »

Thanks Widow!
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by catan man »

Thanks for the link.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Mr. North »

While I'm glad this is being brought to light, I think Mr. Gagné's experience is a very poor example to promote change. Flying for two different charters? Flying for 180 hours a month? Working an 18 hour duty day after 30 days on?!! Are you kidding me?! I want an airline job as much as the next guy but there's a safe way and a reckless way to do it. Mr. Gagné chose the latter and I have absolutely no pity for him. Even if back then our duty times were 8 or 10 hours a day with only 80 flight hours a month, I don't see how Mr. Gagné's actions would be any different. He obviously wasn't the guy to say 'no' as he knowingly exceeded his limits. So how does this reckless behavior help our plight for better duty times? One could easily argue that had he followed the current regulations, none of this would have happened!

Don't get me wrong, this needs to be addressed, but there are far more superior examples out there of pilots making bad decisions after only 14 hours of work. Nevermind the Gagné's! The regulations will not change unless we focus on accidents that happen within the limits of law!
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by The Old Fogducker »

I was somewhat disappointed that Part 2 was rewritten into a reaction story to the airing of Part 1 rather than continuing with the planned content for Part 2, then airing total reaction the special on Friday night's "The National."

I've sent an enquiry to the CBC, but doubt I'll get a timely reply ... if at all.

Also, in the closing segment of part 2, with the reporter on the float dock in Vancouver, the red Turbo Otter in the background looks like the heels of the floats are awash up to almost the rear spreader bar. All my Single Swine time was on the grossly underpowered piston version, but the company loading guideline called for several rivets of the heels of the floats to be visible above the waterline. The person just over the shoulder of the reporter is hauling away a loading ramp after removing it from the rear door ... presumably after having done the loading.

It could be really difficult to tell due to the low res picture.

So what's up with that?

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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Mig29 »

I don't now too many details about Mr. Gagne, I wonder if he operated for 703 company or 704?? Maybe that's why he got away with so much flying time? But, working two jobs 18hrs straight is very unsafe and if I can say immature, because it directly puts you at risk of being severely fatigued.

But, aside from that, I am glad that our industry is being exopsed to the public which in many cases is clueless to what goes on inside of it.

Someone said that if companies are forced to shorten their duty limits they will cut our pay. I disagree with that, because we should be standing together, and not allowing that! If we do, then you can't blame the company or TC for it.

What I don't understand is why are Europeans so far ahead of us, and why is TC saying that it will take many years before we catch up!???? All it takes is a change in a regulation that can be effective in few short months....with some grace period for companies to conform to them.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Caracrane »

Behind your nick names on this forum we can't really identify you guys kind of YOU Janszoon and Mr.North that are probably the first to ground an airplane for a nav. light whenever you can... but will benefit from what Gagné maid public and with the impact it's gonna have and probably givin TC no choice to make some move. since u guys asleep hope 2 have a reply some day. He Had the balls to do so and Carrier's comment explains it all... Eric
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by The Old Fogducker »

caracrane .. would you not ground an airplane for a burned out nav light if you were doing a walk-around in preparation for a night flight?

I agree it took some considerable intestinal fortitude for Mssr Gagne to come forward with his story about working conditions for pilots in small air carrier operations, even if it did involve "confessing" to having broken the Flight & Duty Time regulations.

It is a damning description of "the real life" of an upwardly mobile young pilot in a 703 company trying to better himself.

Its super-unfortunate this pilot had nowhere to turn for resolution of this culture in the company ... Transport would have just said "You're the PIC ... just say no" which is easy to say when you're receiving a regular cheque, and the kids aren't in need of new shoes and clothes, and his wife isn't threatening to leave him because she wants better out of life than living hand-to-mouth. The fella's bosses no doubt made it clear that there was no such thing as saying "No" and still remaining employed with an entire filing cabinet of resumes of people just itchin' to get their hands on the controls of that PA-31.

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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Mr. North »

Epic post Eric.

In the future you may want to check for spelling and grammar before you put your name on it or expect a reply.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Intentional Left Bank »

The Old Fogducker wrote:I was somewhat disappointed that Part 2 was rewritten into a reaction story to the airing of Part 1 rather than continuing with the planned content for Part 2, then airing total reaction the special on Friday night's "The National."

I've sent an enquiry to the CBC, but doubt I'll get a timely reply ... if at all.
I think that Part 2 is airing tomorrow, Friday the 26th. The segment you are referring to I think was as you say "a reaction story" to Part 1, not part of the documentary.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Caracrane »

ben Mr.North si j'ai fais des fautes en englais, "je suis désolé", comme le dirait la chanson de Madonna, mais en attendant, viens pas m'faire chier. Bye (by the way can work in both languages)
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Widow »

Quite right ILB ... part two of fatigue airs tomorrow.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Caracrane »

old fog, yes cause the plane is not injeopardy probably U would nver do that. had the chance to have 2 NAV LIGHTS each sides! couldn't burn same time I guess. Eric
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Meatservo »

Mig29 wrote:
Someone said that if companies are forced to shorten their duty limits they will cut our pay. I disagree with that, because we should be standing together, and not allowing that! If we do, then you can't blame the company or TC for it.
Of course, you're absolutely right, but this is what I see happening anyway. I'm feeling a bit pessimistic I guess. Maybe people won't get their pay cut right away, maybe the raises and cost-of-living adjustments (what's that? :P ) will become fewer and farther between than they already are. Maybe your benefits will get dialed back without your being aware at the time. Who knows. They'll get you somehow. There's no way anyone is going to get more pay for an hour's worth of the same work than they did before, and if you have to work fewer hours, then you'll get paid less. That's how I see it panning out. I hope you're right and I'm wrong, believe me.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by The Old Fogducker »

Caracrane wrote:old fog, yes cause the plane is not in jeopardy probably U would never do that. had the chance to have 2 NAV LIGHTS each sides! couldn't burn same time I guess. Eric

You're lucky I guess ... none of the ones I flew had two per side.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by xsbank »

You guys who are quick to condemn Mr Gagne, did you not hear that despite working 2 jobs he still made only 28,000? Eating is a reasonable motivation for rule-breaking, don't you think?

I see there was a job posted in Calgary that was offering 14 days on 4 off... Sign me up! Why is this even allowed? The Federal rules are toothless and totally unconcerned with the well-being of it's citizens. No worker under provincial rules would be subjected to that - there would be minimum wage and overtime to deal with for one.

In fact, why are we not just asking for the same wage rules that any worker in a Starbucks gets? If operators had to pay overtime on all duty time, double time or doubletime and a half with an extra day off, operators would quickly change their tunes.
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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Buzz Lightyear »

What really matters here is that the problems this industry is facing are finally being exposed to the public. However I must agree that nothing will change unless there's some kind of follow-up.

I really think that Radio Canada and the media in general will, from now on, pay way more attention to any changes that we, as a professional group, try to bring to the industry. With the creation of a College on its way we should not neglect the power of the media to relay our ideas or bring any abuse or safety issues into light.

We now have more amunitions, let's use them!

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Re: CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

Post by Janszoon »

xsbank wrote:You guys who are quick to condemn Mr Gagne, did you not hear that despite working 2 jobs he still made only 28,000? Eating is a reasonable motivation for rule-breaking, don't you think?
I don't consider breaking rules, in place in an attempt to keep pilots and passengers safe (duty time/flight time limits), as being justification to get more money for sustenance. Would you tell your passengers that you're going to be flying for 18 hours straight, 4 hours above the allowed limit, because you have to make more money?

"Well folks, this is the captain speaking. Seeing as how I don't make enough money, I'm now working my second job and flying over my allowed duty time, and I'm also way over my allowed flight time for the month. I know I'm breaking the rules and I do feel very tired, but I'm going to keep pushing the limits because TC hasn't come by to stop me. That's just the way it is in this business if you want to get more hours and make more money. Oh well, have a nice flight."

You're not stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family, you have peoples' lives in your hands. On every flight, you should be able to look your passengers in the eyes and tell them that you are abiding by air law and that safety is your top priority. If you can't do that, why are you putting their lives and your life at risk? I'm not saying you ground a plane for a faulty light, but when you knowingly are exceeding limits in place to keep you and your passengers safe, is it worth it?

I think it's ridiculous what Gagne was making. That is another issue in itself. What I was pointing out is the fact that Gagne was complaining about the system being lax while at the same time knowingly breaking the rules.

An analogy: if I drive 160 km/h on a Canadian highway, I know I am breaking the law. If a cop happens to be there, I may be caught, but if nobody is around, then I may get away with it. Is it safe? Probably not, but as long as I get away with it and everything is fine, what's the problem? Now say I get in an accident attributed to my excessive speed. Say somebody dies as a result. Now say I start complaining that something needs to change because there is an unsafe culture of highway driving that didn't stop me from speeding.

I'm sure Mr. Gange feels very badly for what happened that day, considering the captain was fatally injured, and that is quite the punishment in and of itself. I'm not trying to rake him over the coals, I'm criticizing this report that uses a very poor example of pilot fatigue where the pilot knowingly went far above the allowed limits that are in place.

His story exposes the problem of pilots breaking the rules and thinking it's fine to do that. His story also exposes the problem of TC not being able to monitor situations like his, but TC can't be looking over our shoulders at all times. We must abide by the rules in place if we expect to call for changes. The only thing I got from that story was: don't succumb to the pressures you put on yourself to advance your career by breaking the rules.

I want to hear the stories of companies trying to fudge the numbers, of pilots feeling forced to break the law, of employers threatening their employees to work above duty limits.

The only pressures on Mr. Gagne were his own; to get more hours and make a better living. You can blame the industry for its low pay, but succumbing to personal pressures of finance is no justification for breaking the rules that the travelling public expect their pilots to be abiding by. Let's get to the REAL stories here.
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