Definition of cross-country
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Re: Definition of cross-country
The only "fact" that matters is that their is no definition of "cross country" time in the CARs.
Therefore anytime anyone at TC denies any flight as not being cross country, insist, in writing, that they identify the regulation or standard they are using to disqualify that flight. Be persistent and you will win because the TC staffer does not have a leg to stand on.
BTW pre CAR's the personnel licensing hand book had a definition of cross country time. For licensing purposes a cross country flight had to be to a point 25 nm away or include a full stop landing at an airport other than the origin.
The personnel licensing handbook is obsolete and had no legal standing but bits of it never seem to go away...
Therefore anytime anyone at TC denies any flight as not being cross country, insist, in writing, that they identify the regulation or standard they are using to disqualify that flight. Be persistent and you will win because the TC staffer does not have a leg to stand on.
BTW pre CAR's the personnel licensing hand book had a definition of cross country time. For licensing purposes a cross country flight had to be to a point 25 nm away or include a full stop landing at an airport other than the origin.
The personnel licensing handbook is obsolete and had no legal standing but bits of it never seem to go away...
Re: Definition of cross-country
Again,B-rad wrote: And how would TC differentiate those who fly XC and do not land from those who do circuits at home and try to log it as XC when issuing a licence?
Where do you draw the line if you are the one issuing licences? Is it really being suggested that TC should just take our word for it that the training has been completed?
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Re: Definition of cross-country
No amount of rule making is going to fix the issue of someone who thinks that logging cross country time in the circuit, is OK. There is never going to be enough rules to stop people like that, so that is IMO an unconvincing argument.B-rad wrote:Again,B-rad wrote: And how would TC differentiate those who fly XC and do not land from those who do circuits at home and try to log it as XC when issuing a licence?
Where do you draw the line if you are the one issuing licences? Is it really being suggested that TC should just take our word for it that the training has been completed?
As for where do you draw the line ?
Here is a scenario. A student of mine who was just about ready for the flight test logged 0.4 of dual XC time for a flight from the airport of origin to low approach and go around at an airport 11 miles away and then return to the same airport. Sounds kind of bogus, right ?
But he said he learned more about cross country flying in that 0.4, than in all the cross country flying to date because the weather at the time was 700 overcast and 2 miles in rain and mist and navigating to even a familiar close airport in crap weather was a whole different ball game. So, B-Rad are you really telling me I was dishonest by putting this flight in the cross country column of his PTR ?
Trying to qualify the "value" of any particular cross country flight is IMO an exercise in futility. A short flight to a nearby location could pose a bigger navigational challenge than a long flight on a CAVU, traffic free day.
I think it is entirely reasonable that pilots be trusted to decide what is cross country. We have enough arbitrary standards in flight training already, we do not need more.
Re: Definition of cross-country
I am not at all saying you are dishonest by logging that time as XC nor am I questioning the navigational value of short flights. What I am saying is I side with TC denying issuing a licence when XC time is logged and can not be proved; the means of proving being a stop at an another aerodrome and entry logged.
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Re: Definition of cross-country
Back when the 25 mile rule was in place, some pilots at the school I used to teach at, did all of their Cross Country time flying between their home airport and the same airport that was 26.5 miles away. All they ever did was mindlessly drone to the same airport again and again until the magic number of hours was achieved. Cross Country learning pretty much stopped after the second flight, so how is this better than than someone with a mix of out and back round robins, short local flights and a few good long hauls to distant airports ?B-rad wrote:I am not at all saying you are dishonest by logging that time as XC nor am I questioning the navigational value of short flights. What I am saying is I side with TC denying issuing a licence when XC time is logged and can not be proved; the means of proving being a stop at an another aerodrome and entry logged.
If you really are yearning for something to fix than how about instead of an hours requirement for Cross Country flights to qualify for your CPL, you had to go to a place 1000 nm away and then return stopping at 3 different airports each way. That is a rule change I would support.
Re: Definition of cross-country
I like that one. You learn a lot. Of course some circuits I've observed definitely qualify for cross country...Big Pistons Forever wrote:Back when the 25 mile rule was in place, some pilots at the school I used to teach at, did all of their Cross Country time flying between their home airport and the same airport that was 26.5 miles away. All they ever did was mindlessly drone to the same airport again and again until the magic number of hours was achieved. Cross Country learning pretty much stopped after the second flight, so how is this better than than someone with a mix of out and back round robins, short local flights and a few good long hauls to distant airports ?B-rad wrote:I am not at all saying you are dishonest by logging that time as XC nor am I questioning the navigational value of short flights. What I am saying is I side with TC denying issuing a licence when XC time is logged and can not be proved; the means of proving being a stop at an another aerodrome and entry logged.
If you really are yearning for something to fix than how about instead of an hours requirement for Cross Country flights to qualify for your CPL, you had to go to a place 1000 nm away and then return stopping at 3 different airports each way. That is a rule change I would support.
Re: Definition of cross-country
It's a little more precisely defined in the U.S. 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i) states 50 miles strait line distance for fixed wing, 61.1(b)(3)(v) states 25 for rotorcraft.
Re: Definition of cross-country
It seems reasonable to ask for something written down to indicate a cross-country journey. So in your logbook and in your PTR, log the cross-country route and note "touch and go" or "low and over". If TC is going to trust my logbook at all, I'd expect them to trust that when I wrote a route flown, I actually flew the route.B-rad wrote:I am not at all saying you are dishonest by logging that time as XC nor am I questioning the navigational value of short flights. What I am saying is I side with TC denying issuing a licence when XC time is logged and can not be proved; the means of proving being a stop at an another aerodrome and entry logged.
I don't see how landing somewhere proves anything; landings aren't recorded at most airfields in Canada.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Definition of cross-country
Photofly, I agree with a note in the log describing the navigation being suitable. The reason I express the interest in completing a landing is I feel every landing should be recorded and would satisfy describing the navigation making it pretty black and white. But yes, upon considering others opinions I will agree low and overs or touch and goes are adequate as long as they are logged as such.
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Re: Definition of cross-country
See https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 3-1711.htmphotofly wrote:
It seems reasonable to ask for something written down to indicate a cross-country journey. So in your logbook and in your PTR, log the cross-country route and note "touch and go" or "low and over". If TC is going to trust my logbook at all, I'd expect them to trust that when I wrote a route flown, I actually flew the route.
Staff Instruction (SI) No. 401-003
(4)
Subsection 421.26(4)(b)(ii) of the CARs Standard. The PTR must clearly indicate the cross-country route in order to accept the flight time as cross-country experience. For example the PTR must clearly show a departing point, the required two intermediate stops and the final destination. The Transport Canada Aeronautical Information Manual (TC AIM) RAC 3.10 clearly explains how intermediate stops are to be indicated on a Flight Plan. It is expected that the pilot enter the cross country route in to their PTR in a similar manner as explained in TC AIM RAC 3.10.
(5)
Examples of acceptable PTR cross country entries:
CYTZ-CYHM CYHM-CYXU CYXU-CYTZ 3.5 hours;
CYTZ-CYHM .5 hours
CYHM-CYXU 1.0 hours
CYXU-CYTZ 2.0 hours;
Pickerel Lake-Trout Lake Trout Lake-French River French River- Pickerel Lake 3.5 hours; and
Pickerel Lake- Trout Lake .5 hours
Trout Lake-French River 1.0 hours
French River- Pickerel Lake 2.0 hours.
(6)
Example of unacceptable PTR cross country entries:
CYTZ-CYTZ 3.5 hours (Missing intermediate stops);
CYTZ-CYHM-CYXU-CYTZ 3.5 hours (This entry does not clearly indicate the pilot has landed at the intermediated stop. This entry only indicates that the pilot overflew the aerodrome and then proceeded on course to the next aerodrome. Refer to TC AIM RAC 3.10);
Pickerel Lake – Pickerel Lake 3.5 hours ( Missing intermediate stops); and
Pickerel Lake-Trout Lake- French River-Pickerel Lake (This entry does not clearly indicate the pilot has landed at the intermediated stop. This entry only indicates that the pilot overflew the aerodrome and then proceeded on course to the next aerodrome. Refer to TC AIM RAC 3.10).
Re: Definition of cross-country
That's helpful, but it refers to the PTR entries for the PPL, only: 421.26(4)(b)(2) - for which full stop landings are specified for the 150nm trip. Some licences and ratings require cross country time but don't require the applicant to provide a PTR or need full stop landings. The pilot's personal logbook is the record of flight experience there since no PTR is required. Is there an instruction that refers to how to complete a pilot logbook other than CAR401.08?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Definition of cross-country
Yeah ... I must have just caught the tail end of 'ded reckoning' when I did my cross country for the PPL back in my teens, which I always thought the "cross-country" really was all about; originally it defined ( it was the "definition of") the cross country, ... your expertise at map reading with a watch and 'wind vector accuracy'.Big Pistons Forever wrote:The personnel licensing handbook is obsolete and had no legal standing but bits of it never seem to go away...
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Re: Definition of cross-country
in writing I sure think that is a good idea but..Big Pistons Forever wrote: Back when the 25 mile rule was in place, some pilots at the school I used to teach at, did all of their Cross Country time flying between their home airport and the same airport that was 26.5 miles away. All they ever did was mindlessly drone to the same airport again and again until the magic number of hours was achieved. Cross Country learning pretty much stopped after the second flight, so how is this better than than someone with a mix of out and back round robins, short local flights and a few good long hauls to distant airports ?
If you really are yearning for something to fix than how about instead of an hours requirement for Cross Country flights to qualify for your CPL, you had to go to a place 1000 nm away and then return stopping at 3 different airports each way. That is a rule change I would support.
I have flown from Tofino => Springbank => Washington D.C. => Springbank lots of stops. Couldn't get a CPL recommend and now people don't even think I'm a private pilot. I suppose they're kind of right, it's not like I'm current. Sometimes getting along better with the CFI is more important than being able to fly a piper warrior II anywhere you want.
It's funny how doing the little cross country flight test demo would bother me so much. Maybe I should have done the long trips dual so I could learn more.

Re: Definition of cross-country
But ... but ... I never made a single entry in my PTR; the instructor always did that. And apparently someone at TC didn't like the way he did it because I was telephoned and asked to email more details of the 150nm cross-country before they'd approve my PPL.Aviatard wrote: ...
See https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 3-1711.htm
Staff Instruction (SI) No. 401-003
(4)
Subsection 421.26(4)(b)(ii) of the CARs Standard. The PTR must clearly indicate the cross-country route in order to accept the flight time as cross-country experience. For example the PTR must clearly show a departing point, the required two intermediate stops and the final destination. The Transport Canada Aeronautical Information Manual (TC AIM) RAC 3.10 clearly explains how intermediate stops are to be indicated on a Flight Plan. It is expected that the pilot enter the cross country route in to their PTR in a similar manner as explained in TC AIM RAC 3.10.
(5)
...
Anyway, the way I read it and IMHO, the specifications listed in this document are specifically for the PPL requirement and not a general definition.
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Re: Definition of cross-country
I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere among the endless sea of tangents, but I was under the impression you always need to have separate lines in the PTR/logbook for a x-country flight, regardless of whether it's overfly/fullstop/t&g. You're logging your times anyways. I always take a picture of the flight time card with
Is that what they are giving you a hard time about?
Is that what they are giving you a hard time about?
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Re: Definition of cross-country
They could give him a hard time about it if the instructor can't print legibly. Spelling and writing neat matters folks! That said though, there is a lot of possibilities about how a PTR can get screwed up from the instructor's end, and from TC's end. As a note: Since the PTR is the student's property until it is submitted to TC, keep tabs on it during your training even if you trust you instructor to make sure its being filled out. Even if the school keeps an electronic PTR you still have the right to see it. At the end of training, the PTR will need to be signed by YOU so when you're signing those pages, do the part where you're making sure everything is correct.
Also, this sort of stuff shouldn't get past the AP. I make sure people have me scheduled for an hour for the process. Its worth your time to double check the damn thing before it goes to TC.
Also, this sort of stuff shouldn't get past the AP. I make sure people have me scheduled for an hour for the process. Its worth your time to double check the damn thing before it goes to TC.
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Re: Definition of cross-country
I'm guessing this was the problem though they didn't actually say what the issue was. They just wanted me to confirm the date and the route of my solo x-country flight. I re-checked the details from my log book, emailed the information to the the person specified, and received my booklet in the mail shortly after.Shiny Side Up wrote:They could give him a hard time about it if the instructor can't print legibly. Spelling and writing neat matters folks! ...
I suppose I should have reviewed the PTR but, at the time, I didn't realize it was "mine" to review. My bad.

Re: Definition of cross-country
Isn't there difference for the night cross-country flight requirement ?johnny@gino wrote:Anyone knows where I can find a definition for cross-country flight time? I have done all my night XC PIC time renting a Cessna but I did all of it with the departing airport being my arrival airport, and obviously navigating to airports around my area because it was cheaper for gas and not a lot of airports had service at night. Now, there are saying it's not cross-country and it's circuits. Anybody has any suggestion for me?
Re: Definition of cross-country
The original question is not day cross-country for a PPL, it's about training for night endorsement once already licensed. There was more emphasis on doing a lengthier / more thorough cross country expereince at night after already having the daytime experience with the PPL. The night cross country with all its aspects is a different navigation experience .
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Re: Definition of cross-country
However minor this might be, touch and go "landings" are not allowed on flight tests (specifically PPL and CPL). I'm not sure if that means anything or not to this issue but something to consider. It might be more about the risks of a gear up and the demonstration of actually stopping the aircraft but I don't know.Pop n Fresh wrote: A touch-and-go is landing.
As far as the X-country time itself, ex 23 in the PTR includes diversions. In a diversion (real or simulated and emergency or casual) you have your map, select a nav point to set heading, a destination and a few key points (if possible) along the way. My thumb is about 6NM wide and if you assume about 90 knots ground speed then 2/3 of the distance is time. (for example 4 thumbs is 24NM and 16 min)
For the diversion on a PPL or CPL ride the examiner has the candidate navigate with minimal planning to get from one place to another using the map. That counts as cross country and is marked without the need for a landing (that's a separate exercise).
Now I recognize a flight training and flight tests are not the same as day to day flying but just my 2 cents and a few things to consider. Of course we don't use pennies anymore so I'll toss in a nickle

Last edited by Instructor_Mike on Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Definition of cross-country
Well, one could always look at the context. If it's early on in the student's training, when it's not likely that they'd be far from the airport, then it's more likely that it would be circuits. If it's later on in the student's training, it's equally likely that it could be cross-country. The PTR could shed some light too... If the student needed a lot of circuit time (having trouble with landings, maybe) then maybe it's more likely to be circuits.B-rad wrote:And how would TC differentiate those who fly XC and do not land from those who do circuits at home and try to log it as XC when issuing a licence?
Of course, you could always ask the student where he/she went and then quickly figure out if the time for the flight makes sense for a cross-country.
I forget what rule the flying school used to differentiate cross-country when I trained, but after I was licensed I only logged cross-country time on flights where I filed a flight plan (or should have...). Some flights I don't bother logging the cross-country anymore although I probably could... Langley to Chilliwack may be beyond 25nm but I don't "navigate" much to get there.
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Re: Definition of cross-country
Ugh, I would love to putz around in a Cessna out there. Jeelouse.AirFrame wrote:B-rad wrote: Langley to Chilliwack may be beyond 25nm but I don't "navigate" much to get there.
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Re: Definition of cross-country
kind of sounds like the 11.7 nm cross country from Parkland CPL6 to Villeneuve CZVL.
Does it count as night if you do it with your eyes closed? or at least hood time or something?
Does it count as night if you do it with your eyes closed? or at least hood time or something?
Re: Definition of cross-country
I did a short X country in my Cessna yesterday to northern Ont and back. 3 legs and 832 NM. Figure I'll log that one as X country.
Re: Definition of cross-country
Cessna? No...davecessna wrote:Ugh, I would love to putz around in a Cessna out there. Jeelouse.