Spin Training

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister

User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7512
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Spin Training

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Just because your instructor recommended you, and you passed, does NOT mean you have the skill. You just met the minimum requirement. You will be shocked to see what a well experienced pilot can do safely with the trainer you thing you know so well.
And that explains the difference, between a paper pilot,
and a stick & rudder aviator.

Let's say someone told you that he was doing
aerobatics in a piston twin. You would say that
was dangerous.

Let's say someone told you that he was doing
aerobatics in a piston twin at low atltitude. You
would say that is insane.

Let's say someone told you that he was doing
aerobatics in a piston twin at low atltitude with
both engines feathered. You would say
that is impossible.

Gentlemen, may I present Bob Hoover:



Bob Hoover is no "paper pilot". As a matter of
fact, the bureaucrats despise and hate him, which
I think reflects poorly on the bureaucrats and their
motiviation for their hatred of Bob.

You may have heard of . Yeager, who described
Bob Hoover as "the best pilot I've ever seen".
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Dagwood
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:33 pm
Location: GFACN33

Re: Spin Training

Post by Dagwood »

This might sound like a dumb question, but I don't fly aerobatics.

Why does Bob have the white ball hanging in front of him? (you can see it when he's pouring the tea)
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Beefitarian
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6610
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:53 am
Location: A couple of meters away from others.

Post by Beefitarian »

So, could these well practiced aerobatic pilots, who met their fate in an unrecovered spin, simply have become complacent about spinning, and let things go too far?
I think I am complacent about spins in the 172. But I still have respect for the fact that they could be extremely dangerous. Especially if the plane was outside the utility category or you entered the spin too low and or by making a mistake during a powered stall.

I have rarely bothered doing spins solo. I find things like trying for perfect turns more interesting because they are a challenge, changing power, bank and pitch.

Spins you pretty much have to just recover, they are more plain. Yoke neutral, push the rudder opposite the spin direction. Break the stall, gently recover from dive if applicable.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7512
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Spin Training

Post by Colonel Sanders »

the white ball hanging in front of him?
It actually lets you know that you are in
co-ordinated, positive G flight, very similar
to the ball in a turn & bank.

In the following video, observe the strap
hanging just to the left of the people's heads.

Note that during the roll, it tells you that the G
was positive and co-ordinated.



You simply wouldn't believe how many
people are incapable of rolling an airplane
in a co-ordinated, positive G manner.

Neither the contest nor the airshow people
think there is any value in being able to
perform an aileron roll in such a manner,
but I can assure you that Tex Johnston did.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CpnCrunch
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4151
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: Spin Training

Post by CpnCrunch »

PilotDAR wrote: So, could these well practiced aerobatic pilots, who met their fate in an unrecovered spin, simply have become complacent about spinning, and let things go too far?
I think complacency is a factor in many/most fatal accidents by highly experienced pilots:

- complacency about mountain flying (Sparky Imeson, Steve Fossett, etc.)
- complacency about flying in crappy weather
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Spin Training

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Colonel Sanders wrote: Bob Hoover is no "paper pilot". As a matter of
fact, the bureaucrats despise and hate him, which
I think reflects poorly on the bureaucrats and their
motiviation for their hatred of Bob.

You may have heard of . Yeager, who described
Bob Hoover as "the best pilot I've ever seen".
Slightly OT, but related to possibly part of the problem. Before you said:
This is the reality of flight training in Canada, today -
people with very poor stick & rudder skills are
becoming the next generation of CPL's and
instructors and they simply aren't competent
to perform (or God help us, teach) spins.
Going through some stuff in ground school with some of my class 4 students, none had apparently seen the above youtube, which is one of the finest and most amazing examples of flying, none of them had ever heard of Bob Hoover. When I told them that ". Yeager thinks he's the best pilot there ever was" (paraphrasing a bit for effect) they were all "Who's . Yeager?" I just about cried.

I guess what I'm getting at is that part of the reason the newer generations of pilots don't do well at such things is maybe a bit of a loss of the history of such things. I guess we've gotten so far away from it in time. Its not amazing anymore that someone was first to break the sound barrier. I dunno.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mcrit
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:01 pm

Re: Spin Training

Post by mcrit »

Colonel Sanders wrote:This is the reality of flight training in Canada, today -
people with very poor stick & rudder skills are
becoming the next generation of CPL's and
instructors and they simply aren't competent
to perform (or God help us, teach) spins.
I agree with you to an extent. The hands and feet are not there in GA to the extent that they used to be, but I don't think that they have completely evapourated. What I'm saying is that the only way to reverse this trend is to encourage people to get out there and use their hands and feet. Experienced guys who are competent and comfortable with spins , etc... need to get out there and pass on what they have.
Colonel Sanders wrote:I think you are pointing out a problem with
domesticated (in-house) DFTE's.
Hell must be cold today. I agree again.
Colonel Sanders wrote:Special case. I taught him.
That is the answer that I was expecting. Let's take the special case and expand it to the general case. A competent instructor is able to teach a student to safely spin. A competent instructor is able to assess that student's ability to spin. That same competent instructor should be able to sign out that student for solo spin practice once that student has demonstrated the ability to spin safely. I am not arguing that we should give student pilots carte blanche to take an aircraft out and do what they want. I am arguing against a blanket prohibition on solo spins.
From a practical standpoint; I can understand a grave reluctance WRT sending a pre-PPL student pilot out for solo spins. I myself would not do it. However, late stage CPL students are another story, as are instructor candidates. The only way to build confidence with a maneuver is to do that maneuver. The only way to build true confidence is to do it on your own. I light of that; late stage CPL students should be allowed solo spin practice and instructor candidates should be highly encouraged to practice spins solo.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Spin Training

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Any competent instructor should be able to teach spin recognition and avoidance. This will obviously require demonstrating how the aircraft can depart controlled fight and how to recognize the spin entry and recover before a spin develops. Central to that is the importance of the student getting lots of practice flying the aircraft deep into the slow flight regime and maintaining control while manoeuvering right on the edge of the stall.

That IMO is value added training. Practicing entering a spin and then allowing it to develop into a fully developed spin and then recovering does not represent any real world scenario and is IMO not very useful training. Furthermore the spin is an aerobatic manoeuver and if the instructor does not hold an aerobatic instructor rating he/she IMO do not have enough skills and knowledge to recognize when a spin is going bad and then know how to fix it. And yes a spin can go bad even in a C 172.....

The problem in flight training is longstanding and has not changed since I started instructing in 1987. It is a generalize lack of skill with the fundamentals like going to and holding the correct attitude for every phase of flight, keeping the ball in the centre, and always having the aircraft in trim.

MCRIT

If your students can maintain altitude within 30 feet, airspeed within 2 knots and the ball less than 1/4 out of the cage 95% of the time and are without prompting correcting back to the standard the other 5 % of the time, then sure go ahead and let them use their practice time on spins. If not I would suggest you concentrate on the basics.

My students get really, really, really tired of me saying " it is just as easy to fly at 2000 feet as it is at 2011 feet" , or "it is just as easy to fly down final at 60 kts as it is at 63 kts" :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7512
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Spin Training

Post by Colonel Sanders »

I fail to see how this is a useful flight training
exercise. It's an amusement park ride.

---------- ADS -----------
 
avinstructor
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:34 pm

Re: Spin Training

Post by avinstructor »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:Any competent instructor should be able to teach spin recognition and avoidance. This will obviously require demonstrating how the aircraft can depart controlled fight and how to recognize the spin entry and recover before a spin develops. Central to that is the importance of the student getting lots of practice flying the aircraft deep into the slow flight regime and maintaining control while manoeuvering right on the edge of the stall.

That IMO is value added training. Practicing entering a spin and then allowing it to develop into a fully developed spin and then recovering does not represent any real world scenario and is IMO not very useful training. Furthermore the spin is an aerobatic manoeuver and if the instructor does not hold an aerobatic instructor rating he/she IMO do not have enough skills and knowledge to recognize when a spin is going bad and then know how to fix it. And yes a spin can go bad even in a C 172.....
I understand that stall recognition and avoidance is king ... It's the key to preventing a spin from happening in the first place - I get that, and I agree. I also don't believe that spins should be practiced solo - I went through my entire CPL and instructor rating and never did a solo spin - it wasn't necessary. What was very helpful though was the spin training I did receive from qualified instructors during my CPL (and yes, they did hold aerobatic instructor ratings) - this is where I see benefits. Does taking a student up for 1 and 2 turn spins really make them more able to recover from a low level spin? No, absolutely not that is where the recognition and avoidance comes in. But it does help to provide them with the confidence and ability to handle and recover the airplane during its departure from normal flight, and back into normal flight.

During my PPL my (incompetent) instructor decided to demo a spin for me ... he ended up being unable to spin the 172. As a completely naive pilot I learned a few things from this ... 1) It is hard to spin an airplane, 2) I should be scared of purposely spinning an aircraft because my instructor was. This was incredibly negative training.

If my initial spin training been what I received later during my CPL this negative training wouldn't have occurred, I also not have feared the spin (health respect, yet - afraid, no) because it was an unknown world to me. It seems we as humans tend to fear what we don't know or understand, and then tend to do stupid things because of those fears - like approaching fast to a short runway because we are afraid to stall. These pilots (of which there are many unfortunately) have no real understanding or mastery of the aircraft and when it will stall, nor the implications from approaching fast to a short runway (which to them is 2500').

I am one that wishes some basic aerobatic training (with competent instructors) were a standard part of PPL training. Why? For the same reason I believe the spin should be part of the training - mastery of the aircraft and taking the mystic/awe/fear out of it. Having a basic understanding of the entire flight envelope, how the airplane responds and reacts in different attitudes and at different speeds helps us to better control the airplane. and over-all just be better stick and rudder pilots. I think it was Kershner (among others) that recommended at least 5 hours of aerobatic training for all pilots - I don't see how this could be a bad thing. But ... this is sadly not reality.

Back to reality now ... this debate about whether we should train people to spin an aircraft or not is great - I'm learning lots and I hope others are too (which as pilots we should all be continually doing). The debate has been around for a long time, and I'm sure it will continue. The problem is that as those who teach to TC requirements we are mandated to at the PPL level ensure the student is exposed to the spin, and at the CPL level ensure the student has the ability to both enter and recovery from a spin. Saying that only qualified aerobatic instructors should teach spins is great, but not reality - there aren't enough aerobatic instructors to go around and the typical FTU would never hire in a specialized person just to teach spins (too expensive). This is left to the instructors with too much product in their hair, and a pathetic ability to keep the ball centred - I get that this isn't ideal - actually far from it. BUT maybe we can shift gears and actually offer some advice to those of us who are required to teach this - HOW can we do it better given the equipment we have, and the constraints of the typical FTU?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Spin Training

Post by AirFrame »

Colonel Sanders wrote:I fail to see how this is a useful flight training
exercise. It's an amusement park ride.
That was rather tedious to watch. What's with the yoke being turned into the spin? On the 152 I learned on, that input would put you into a spiral. Turning it to the outside, however, would ensure your inside wing stalled first and really accelerated the start of the spin. Almost gave my instructor a heart attack one day when I did that...
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7512
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Spin Training

Post by Colonel Sanders »

What's with the yoke being turned into the spin?
Cessna says:

"Typically even a slight inadvertent aileron deflection in the direction of the spin will speed up rotation"

See "Spin Characteristics of Cessna Models 15x, 17x"

I say again: If I could teach people ONE THING about spins,
is that the stick (or yoke for you four-bars) takes a docile
spin and converts it into something really nasty.

That's a lesson that everyone should learn from slow flight
and stalls, and unfortunately they rarely do.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7512
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Spin Training

Post by Colonel Sanders »

HOW can we do it better given the equipment we have, and the constraints of the typical FTU?
Good question. I guess I should write another article for
www.pittspecials.com/articles.html

Ok. First thing to realize is that you don't have a problem
with spins - that's just a symptom of the real, underlying
problem.

What you have a problem with, is the correct use of the
rudder.

This ain't your fault. Well-meaning people (remember, the
path to Hell is paved with good intentions) have tried to
improve safety by putting the little tire at the front of the
airplane, and by limiting crosswind components.

While an FTU with only nosewheel aircraft and 5 knot
crosswind components might look on paper as if it
is promoting safety, it actually isn't.

Such an FTU is actually producing an inferior product,
which goes on to have aircraft handling accidents
after the product (student) leaves the FTU. This
conveniently allows the FTU to have a "good safety
record".

As you might imagine, I'm pretty horrified by such
a craven and self-serving approach to training - make
yourself look good by producing inferior students who
have a high accident rate. This is the Puppy Mill Way.

Personally, I refuse to do ab initio training on nosewheel
aircraft. I insist that my students only fly tailwheel aircraft,
and as many different tailwheel types as possible. This
approach quickly develops very highly skilled students.

But we all know that this simply isn't possible - I am
a cranky old museum exhibit. Got that.

So, what can you do, if you are a young flight instructor
at a big city FTU, with too much product in your hair, to
teach your students about the rudder?

Easy.

Start up upper air work. In your nosewheel trainer, climb
up to 3,000 AGL, do a HASEL check and slow the aircraft
down to the bottom of the power curve (speed for flight
for endurance), with 20 degrees of flap selected. This is
NOT slow flight. This is nothing scary. Some power will
be required to maintain altitude, and the flap is to get the
nose down. We need to see over the nose.

Start the demo by putting your feet flat on the floor, and
vigorously rolling the aircraft back and forth. This will
show the adverse yaw - you bank right, the nose goes
left. You bank left, the nose goes right. This adverse yaw
is typically not present (as much) at higher speeds.

Look over the nose, and try to gently roll the aircraft back
and forth, initially from only 10 degrees bank either side,
and try to keep the center of the nose from moving on
the horizon. You will find that you will need to use some
rudder with the aileron to overcome the adverse yaw. As
you get better, increase the bank and the rate of change
of bank until you are rolling back and forth quickly from
30 degrees of bank either side, with the nose nailed on
some distant object (a lake, or town, or cloud). Some
people erroneously call this "Dutch Roll" which it is not.

This exercise teaches the valuable lesson that as you
slow down, aileron starts to cause you trouble, which
needs to be controlled with the rudder. Now to apply
that exercise.


Back up to 4000 AGL. HASEL check. With 20 degrees
of flap and 1250 RPM, stall the aircraft and immediately
recover. Avoid excessive nose-high attitude upon
entry - put the nose slightly above the horizon, and
allow the airspeed to decay slowly. Recover at the
first sign of the stall.

DO NOT PICK UP A FALLING WING WITH AILERON.
Even if you tell people not to, they still will. Recover
with opposite rudder and by relaxing back pressure
on the stick or control column, to reduce the AOA.

Do another stall in the same configuration, but this
time, the objective is to keep the stick/yoke all the
way back, and keep the aircraft fully stalled. Do
NOT try to pick up a falling with with aileron - instead,
use opposite rudder to "walk" the aircraft down in
the full stall. This is called the falling leaf. When you
bank exceeds 20 degrees, you have lost control and
the exercise is terminated - relax the control column
to reduce the AOA and recover. You do not want to
spin with flaps.

As your skill as using the rudder develops, you can
eventually maintain wings-level flight in a fully developed
stall, using the rudders to control yaw. This is a really
good skill to develop, and can be done in either a nosewheel
or tailwheel aircraft. Just watch your altimeter - knock
it off at 2000 AGL.


After doing these two upper-airwork exercises - rolls
around a point, and the falling leaf - it's time to go back
to the airport. Make it interesting for the student by
asking him to descend at 500 fpm with 120 mph. Then
maintain the 500 fpm descent and slow to 100 mph. Etc.

Back in the circuit, fly a normal approach. But on short
final, just before touchdown, drop a wing into whichever
direction the crosswind component might be from, and
touch down on the upwind main only. Full aileron over
to bank the aircraft into the crosswind (ever if there
isn't any) and a bit of forward stick and power, to keep
the aircraft rolling down the runway on only the upwind
main. If you slow down, the aircraft will sit down and
put the downwind main on the ground, and that's ok.

Add power, overshoot, and do it again. If there is no
crosswind at all, put the other main on the ground.

One-wheel landings are a perfectly normal part of
a wheel landing in a taildragger in a crosswind, and
can actually be done in a nosewheel aircraft, too.


If you practice and develop proficiency at these three
exercises - rolls around a point, the falling leaf, and
the one-wheel landing - you will develop considerably
more skill at the correct use of the rudder, which comes
in handy any time you need to precisely control the
aircraft at slow speeds - like during a stall, a spin, or
a crosswind takeoff or landing.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Spin Training

Post by Cat Driver »

Old dog flying explained it the best.

Also the Fleet Canuck was in my opinion the best basic trainer you could ask for.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Spin Training

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

avinstructor wrote:

BUT maybe we can shift gears and actually offer some advice to those of us who are required to teach this - HOW can we do it better given the equipment we have, and the constraints of the typical FTU?
OK good point. So here is my 2 cents

First as previously stated do not treat the spin as a stand alone manoever, it should be taught as the consequence of a failure to control the aircraft when it stalls.

This lesson should start on the ground with a heavy dose of PDM on how people die in real world stall spin accidents and learning how to be aware of flight paths that lead toward the stall/spin/die scenario.

In the air start with slow flight right on the edge of a stall in a banked attitude with power on. Get the student to see how slow you can go as this will inevitable lead to a stall break. However a instant slight pitch down will allow control to be regained. This reinforces recognition of the pre stall indicators and reinforces how smooth flying is essential in the low flight regime and how control can be maintained if you fly the airplane .

To teach the actual CPL spin manoever this is the one area where you want to emphasize that you are teaching to the test. In other words you are being taught how to enter a spin because you have to enter the spin in order to effect the recovery which is a flight test required item. There is no real world requirement to know how to enter a spin in a non aerobatic flight.

The flight test guide states that recovery will be at the incipient stage or within a quarter turn. Therefore there is no requirement to go past half a turn in any spin conducted at an FTU.

This is how I teach the spin entry for the C 172

-1700 Rpm
- smooth pitch up to 30 deg nose up
- at 45 kts apply full left rudder
- smoothly but quickly apply full aft stick

As soon as the airplane breaks to the left power to idle
-opposite rudder
-forward stick
-smooth recovery to level flight

To those who think that a half turn spin is not enough of a affirmation of your manliness I say Bull Shit. Like everything else this manoever can be done well or poorly and IMO 95 % of the time it is probably demonstrated poorly.

What should happen

The aircraft smoothly enters the spin without any hesitation or pitch wobbles. The nose smoothly drops to about 45 degrees nose down and the airplane rolls to about a 60 degree bank angle. The recovery is initiated with just enough rudder to stop smoothly stop the rotation without any out of spin (opposite) yaw and the forward stick is enough to break the stall with out causing a further pitch down. The aircraft stops with the nose exactly 90 degrees from the entry heading and the aircraft is smoothly pitched up to the level flight attitude.

Done right it is a very smooth and non dramatic manoever. That is the solo standard and not very many instructors are good enough to fully achieve it, but it is what you should be striving for.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Spin Training

Post by PilotDAR »

DO NOT PICK UP A FALLING WING WITH AILERON
Um... Is not a falling wing motion of the aircraft in the roll axis? Aren't the ailerons the control to be used to maintain control of the aircraft in the roll axis?

If you are approaching a stall, with the ball neatly in the middle ('cause you're good with the rudder), and a wing drops, and you apply no aileron, but a whole bunch of rudder instead (to raise the offending wing), are you not creating the conditions to induce a spin where they did not exist a moment before?

Certified aircraft are designed so the controls control the aircraft in the normal sense up to the point of the stall, any reason not to use then controls normally?

Sec. 23.201

Wings level stall.

(a) It must be possible to produce and to correct roll by unreversed use of the rolling control and to produce and to correct yaw by unreversed use of the directional control, up to the time the airplane stalls.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7512
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Spin Training

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Not sure I would bet my life on that. You can
try taking it to the bank and seeing what they
think it's worth :wink:

One experiment you might try, is immediately
after takeoff, use aileron instead of rudder to
control the aircraft's direction.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Spin Training

Post by Cat Driver »

In straight and level flight with cruise power if we roll the airplane to a banked attitude say 30 degrees of bank with the elevator and rudder neutral and check the bank angle with aileron what will the next movement be? Assuming you do not move either elevator or rudder.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Spin Training

Post by PilotDAR »

Haha! I had to use aileron with full rudder to control direction on takeoff in the SM 1019 - rudder was not enough (though the Flight Manual suggested it would be). But I exhausted the rudder availability before I applied aileron to control direction.

I concede that the Caravan Flight Manual does state to minimize the use of ailerons near the stall, as the ailerons also apply the roll spoilers, and who needs one of those popped up during a stall?
---------- ADS -----------
 
mcrit
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:01 pm

Re: Spin Training

Post by mcrit »

BPF,

I agree completely that the spin should be taught as the consequence of improper stall recognition or recovery. Further, spin entry should be demonstrated from practical scenarios, (i.e. climbing and descending turns which simulates stalls on climb out and base/final turn). There are a few points on which I disagree.
Big Pistons Forever wrote:Furthermore the spin is an aerobatic manoeuver and if the instructor does not hold an aerobatic instructor rating he/she IMO do not have enough skills and knowledge to recognize when a spin is going bad and then know how to fix it.
A spin in a light trainer where the W & B is in the correct envelope is just another manoeuvre. One need not have an aerobatic instructor rating to teach it. This is my opinion as a (lapsed) aerobatic instructor. A properly trained regular flight instructor can safely teach this manoeuvre.
Big Pistons Forever wrote:If your students can maintain altitude within 30 feet, airspeed within 2 knots and the ball less than 1/4 out of the cage 95% of the time and are without prompting correcting back to the standard the other 5 % of the time, then sure go ahead and let them use their practice time on spins. If not I would suggest you concentrate on the basics.
It takes 200 hrs (minimum) to make a CPL. If all 200 of those hours are needed to get the student to the standard cited above, something is wrong. Also, the ball 1/4 out of the cage is not on. If any part of it is out shows outside the lines the student should be hearing about it.

Hedley,

I agree that that was not flight training, but it would make a pretty lame amusement park ride. What is flight training, however, is a 1 turn spin with a recovery on a predetermined landmark. I'm willing to bet that you've done a few of those. I've found they really help develop a feel for when stall/rotation are about to break. They also get you used to analyzing what the aircraft is doing while your inner ears and everything outside the window is gyrating.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Spin Training

Post by Cat Driver »

In straight and level flight with cruise power if we roll the airplane to a banked attitude say 30 degrees of bank with the elevator and rudder neutral and check the bank angle with aileron what will the next movement be? Assuming you do not move either elevator or rudder.
The above is a basic attitudes and movements question.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Skyhunter
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:15 am
Location: Near YOW

Re: Spin Training

Post by Skyhunter »

ok... been reading this thread and finally have to comment.

This is completely over analysed. Spins are fun for a lot of us. Learned them first in a glider with less than 5 hours total time, and then on my ppl, and yes practised them solo. Why, because I could, and they were fun. I fly airplanes because it is fun. In any of the trainers I flew they were not dangerous, c-152, c-172, Tutor. BPF- multiple revolution spins.. sometimes climbing quite high and seeing how many revolutions could get before getting to recovery altitude.

So long as it is legal, and safe (and most trainers properly loaded are), there is nothing wrong with doing something in an aircraft just cause it is fun!

I think you are all way over blowing the risks of spins done at safe altitude in a properly loaded aircraft certified for them.

ok I feel better, I know a bunch of you will disagree, but well so be it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Spin Training

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I guess this issue is a bit personal because I once had a student ask me to look at the horizontal stab of the sircraft we were about to take out because it " did not look right " . When I examined the underside you could sees a small diagonal crease. I called the engineer over and we had a look in side with a small mirror.

The spar had a kink in it about a foot outboard of the fuselage :shock: . The structural strength of the stab was obviously greatly reduced and the cause was a solo spin recovery which was allowed to turn into a spiral dive followed by a high speed, high Gee pull out.

Pretty much the only way a student can break the airplane in flight is a botched spin recovery. For that reason I think all spins should be done dual. Students by definition are going to make mistakes so they should be supervised by a competent instructor.

I say again the problem is not students who are deficient in spin recovery ability it is a generalized lack of ability in fundemental flying skills like being able to maintain altitude, keep the ball in the middle or hold a constant attitude on the final approach. Working on those basic skills isn't "fun" but it sure pays dividends down the road.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mcrit
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:01 pm

Re: Spin Training

Post by mcrit »

Skyhunter wrote:Why, because I could, and they were fun.
What an irresponsible git! Having fun in an airplane! :smt040 Someone will be around shortly to collect your wings buddy-boy.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Beefitarian
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6610
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:53 am
Location: A couple of meters away from others.

Post by Beefitarian »

The spiral dive is much worse for the reason you just stated BPF, plus students under estimate the danger because most just think of it as a funny turn.

Flight school and rental aircraft should have G-meters that send a radio report every time they exceed a limit.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”