337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

[Doc]

I believe every accident is caused by a chain of events. Failure to identify all mitigating factors accelerates the time between failures.

So, an accident can't just be YOUR fault? There have to be others on whom to lay some of the blame? Really?

[CFR]

I believe every accident is caused by a chain of events. Failure to identify all mitigating factors accelerates the time between failures.

So, an accident can't just be YOUR fault? There have to be others on whom to lay some of the blame? Really?

Rarely is it just an individuals fault. Improper training, improper procedures, improper monitoring, etc, etc, etc all play a part. Can one individual be responsible for a number of factors? Yes but there are still multiple links in the chain. Did you not get enough sleep last night (maybe spent too much time posting on AvCanada), something worrying you, distraction, any number of things. This is why the approach of berating the individual for being the last link in the chain doesn't work to prevent recurrence, the rest of the links are still there.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So what is the human factors chain of events for pilots who go through their whole career and never have an accident?

They were born with a long chain and just never reached the end of it?

[All Sides]

All Sides. Send me a PM. If you think I'm hiding behind a computer. Lets talk. Be happy to straighten you out. Unless you just want t tell me to stuff it, and call me a jerk. It's your move.

I am not the one crucifying pilots on here, you are. If you are so convinced of your convictions post your name. If you won't/can't you are just another Internet Bully.

Post it here, or Pm me it. I will reciprocate.

[Checklist]

This s*** is better than my stories

[pdw]

I believe every accident is caused by a chain of events. Failure to identify all mitigating factors accelerates the time between failures.

So, an accident can't just be YOUR fault? There have to be others on whom to lay some of the blame? Really?

Rarely is it just an individuals fault. Improper training, improper procedures, improper monitoring, etc, etc, etc all play a part. Can one individual be responsible for a number of factors? Yes but there are still multiple links in the chain. Did you not get enough sleep last night (maybe spent too much time posting on AvCanada), something worrying you, distraction, any number of things. This is why the approach of berating the individual for being the last link in the chain doesn't work to prevent recurrence, the rest of the links are still there.

There's always a sequence into every accident. Thought that was well established in fact. Accident reports often include the statement 'it's not the job of the investigation to find fault' ... just to present the facts that are known. And then of course the usual ... 'Learn From The Mistakes Of Others, as there's not enough time to make them all on your own'.

[Doc]

All Sides. Send me a PM. If you think I'm hiding behind a computer. Lets talk. Be happy to straighten you out. Unless you just want t tell me to stuff it, and call me a jerk. It's your move.

I am not the one crucifying pilots on here, you are. If you are so convinced of your convictions post your name. If you won't/can't you are just another Internet Bully.

Post it here, or Pm me it. I will reciprocate.

I'm trying not to "crucify" pilots. I AM trying to crucify stupidity. Sorry you feel this way. I really am. Because, if you've been in this business for 34 years, and you don't see that so many are just not "doing their jobs", then I'm not going to change your point of view here.

[PilotDAR]

are just not "doing their jobs"

Yup, I gotta agree. It is the pilot's job to assure that the aircraft is in the proper configuration for a normal landing. Or... don't land the plane 'till you're certain! Many, many times, I have gone around, and once spent hours circling and doing passes, because I could not be sure the gear was down.

If the pilot has failed to do that job, and lands gear up, without some really persuasive extenuating reason, that pilot is due some direct criticism. I personally think that "crucifixion" may be too harsh, it's only a plane, and life will go on. But barring some unknown "reason" for not doing their job, the pilot should admit, "yep, I screwed that up" and that is that - one more for the repair shop, the insurance companies, and all of our rates went up a little.

It's not worth an internet tempest, just another reminder of pilot's direct responsibility.

[pelmet]

I'm trying not to "crucify" pilots. I AM trying to crucify stupidity. Sorry you feel this way. I really am. Because, if you've been in this business for 34 years, and you don't see that so many are just not "doing their jobs", then I'm not going to change your point of view here.

Maybe people are questioning you because when one of your buds does something, he gets a pass(or light touch). Or a nearby similar aged, probably somewhat known to you guy does something, you will hire him, but anyone else and they are idiots and not doing their job. Try to at least be consistent.

[CFR]

So what is the human factors chain of events for pilots who go through their whole career and never have an accident?

They were born with a long chain and just never reached the end of it?

Possibly - Luck (chance is a better term) plays an unquantifiable role in every accident, sometimes chance alone averts the event (someone in another aircraft notices you don't have your gear down and is able to warn you - the cause was the same, result was different). The human factors you speak of are negative ones. Have a look at the report on Czar 52 and you will see a complete chain of "luck" and failed human factors until eventually "luck" ran out. This is the problem with what we do here, we only have info on the results. What about the day to day operation of that individual? Was this the one time and one time only they made an error? And this is where your premise is incorrect. While there are a number of definitions, for our purposes the following will suffice - An accident is an undesirable event that leads to damage or injury, an incident is an undesirable event that COULD have led to damage or injury. Everyone has incidents, in many cases chance alone dictates the outcome of the circumstances. The more incidences you rack up with out correcting the root cause, the more likely you are to have an "accident". This is why professional investigators look farther back in the chain to see if an error had crept into the system, perhaps years in advance, that finally led to the event at hand.

[Doc]

Maybe people are questioning you because when one of your buds does something, he gets a pass(or light touch). Or a nearby similar aged, probably somewhat known to you guy does something, you will hire him, but anyone else and they are idiots and not doing their job. Try to at least be consistent.

I have no knowledge of who the gentleman is that you refer to as "similar aged....somewhat known to you guy...." Oh, sure I know his avCanada "handle", but I've never met him. In fact, oldncold and I have had some "spats" here on the forums, just like you and I. I don't get to give someone a "pass....or a light touch". I'm just like you. My opinions are just that. My opinions. Just like yours. We separate the wheat from the chaff, the steak from the sizzle and take out of each other's opinions what we will. There is no right or wrong opinions. Just opinions. In my opinion, the guy came on here and maned up to his colossal F up. I respect that. You don't see that anymore. Just my opinion now, neither right or wrong. I decided to cut him some slack.
It doesn't make me a "jerk" or an "internet bully" because my opinions differ from some other's. My opinion is a simple one I feel that there is NO excuse for a pilot to land a perfectly serviceable aircraft on it's belly.
Scary thing is, I just have done a little light reading.....pilots who land gear up, are the most likely to land gear up again. That one has me baffled.
Keep the blue side UP....and the rubber DOWN.

[trey kule]

Scary thing is, I just have done a little light reading.....pilots who land gear up, are the most likely to land gear up again. That one has me baffled.
Keep the blue side UP....and the rubber DOWN.

Lots of research done on this subject. Doc The people who make these type of errors, tend to make them over and over again. that is not to say that there are not exceptions to the rule where someone gears up;, and never does it again.
But there are other personality factors at play here.. One can see it in their flying. I am not going to give examples as it will simply be nitpicked. but there are some pretty good predictors of future tendencies towards this type of accident.
What drives me to distraction is when someone does something boneheaded they end their explanation with...well, I will never do that again. .I have to wonder what type of person needs an accident to convince them not to do something they should not have done in the first place.

[Siddley Hawker]

[CFR]

Scary thing is, I just have done a little light reading.....pilots who land gear up, are the most likely to land gear up again. That one has me baffled.
Keep the blue side UP....and the rubber DOWN.

Lots of research done on this subject. Doc The people who make these type of errors, tend to make them over and over again. that is not to say that there are not exceptions to the rule where someone gears up;, and never does it again.
But there are other personality factors at play here.. One can see it in their flying. I am not going to give examples as it will simply be nitpicked. but there are some pretty good predictors of future tendencies towards this type of accident.
What drives me to distraction is when someone does something boneheaded they end their explanation with...well, I will never do that again. .I have to wonder what type of person needs an accident to convince them not to do something they should not have done in the first place.

Someone who was in an organization that did not have a system for identifying errors (incidents) before they became accidents.

[All Sides]

So what is the human factors chain of events for pilots who go through their whole career and never have an accident?

They were born with a long chain and just never reached the end of it?

Possibly - Luck (chance is a better term) plays an unquantifiable role in every accident, sometimes chance alone averts the event (someone in another aircraft notices you don't have your gear down and is able to warn you - the cause was the same, result was different). The human factors you speak of are negative ones. Have a look at the report on Czar 52 and you will see a complete chain of "luck" and failed human factors until eventually "luck" ran out. This is the problem with what we do here, we only have info on the results. What about the day to day operation of that individual? Was this the one time and one time only they made an error? And this is where your premise is incorrect. While there are a number of definitions, for our purposes the following will suffice - An accident is an undesirable event that leads to damage or injury, an incident is an undesirable event that COULD have led to damage or injury. Everyone has incidents, in many cases chance alone dictates the outcome of the circumstances. The more incidences you rack up with out correcting the root cause, the more likely you are to have an "accident". This is why professional investigators look farther back in the chain to see if an error had crept into the system, perhaps years in advance, that finally led to the event at hand.

Excellent answer! It's not rocket science. Everytime you T/O & land the odds of a accident go up. Sometimes we have so many distractions going on at one time to distract us. Yes, you should be able to prioritize but humans by design take risks and make mistakes. On Avcanada so many pilots are stating their opinions without having enough or any of the facts.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Someone who was in an organization that did not have a system for identifying errors (incidents) before they became accidents.

If I were to apply for a job flying tomorrow would it be to my advantage to tell them I have had over sixty years of perfect luck and should be a good risk for another few flights?

[Siddley Hawker]

If I were to apply for a job flying tomorrow would it be to my advantage to tell them I have had over sixty years of perfect luck and should be a good risk for another few flights?

Hell no ., they'd say "Your luck ran out years ago, you're now an accident looking for a place to happen."

[CFR]

Someone who was in an organization that did not have a system for identifying errors (incidents) before they became accidents.

If I were to apply for a job flying tomorrow would it be to my advantage to tell them I have had over sixty years of perfect luck and should be a good risk for another few flights?

If you believe your record was based on luck and felt that would help in the interview - go ahead. What you have done over time is minimized the incidents through care, or self review or whatever, that has resulted in a very long mean time between failure. If calculation shows that your standard method of operating ends up with a mean time between critical failure (well you can't calculate for an individual, only a population) is 150 years - you are golden!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hell no ., they'd say "Your luck ran out years ago, you're now an accident looking for a place to happen."

However if I told them I took human factors training from some of the more educated members here and I now understand how to assess risk factors would than do the trick?

Then if I had an accident it would be no big deal because I could claim there was all kinds of pressure on me that caused me to lose track of where I was and what I was doing.

Sounds like a plan.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

What you have done over time is minimized the incidents through care, or self review or whatever, that has resulted in a very long mean time between failure. If calculation shows that your standard method of operating ends up with a mean time between critical failure (well you can't calculate for an individual, only a population) is 150 years - you are golden!

You have lost me, I function through a well thought out process before and during a flight and have learned my limits and know when to go to plan b.

Gobbldygook warm fuzzy feeling thinking just does not do it for me.

[CFR]

What you have done over time is minimized the incidents through care, or self review or whatever, that has resulted in a very long mean time between failure. If calculation shows that your standard method of operating ends up with a mean time between critical failure (well you can't calculate for an individual, only a population) is 150 years - you are golden!

You have lost me, I function through a well thought out process before and during a flight and have learned my limits and know when to go to plan b.

Gobbldygook warm fuzzy feeling thinking just does not do it for me.

How did you arrive at that process? Were you born with it or did you learn it and improve it over time?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How did you arrive at that process? Were you born with it or did you learn it and improve it over time?

There were a lot of factors that led to my being able to plan ahead when flying.

First of all I had some very good teachers early in my career.

Second I expanded my areas of flying into the more demanding jobs such as aerial application, fire suppression, helicopters, gyroplanes, sail planes, airshow flying and of course airline flying.....which I found to be about as exciting as watching grass grow.

So I would say I learned by doing....and always getting excellent training first.

Personally I attribute my being accident free during my career to being able to say no when necessary and if it resulted in my being unemployed that was a plus because I do not work for anyone who uses intimidation in any form to push pilots into unsafe flying.

Does that help you understand how I got to here?

[Doc]

Everytime you T/O & land the odds of a accident go up. Sometimes we have so many distractions going on at one time to distract us. On Avcanada so many pilots are stating their opinions without having enough or any of the facts.

Interesting. If you do, indeed feel that way (statistics are on your side here, BTW) why get out of bed in the morning. The more often you buy Tim Horton's coffee, the more likely you are to spill coffee all over your nice new dress. The more often you pick your nose, the more likely you are to being seen,
The more often I fly (we've already established the FACT that I'm a God) the better I get at it. The more easily I can deal with distractions.
Remember, people have opinions.
Now, I have no problem with the crew, fighting a cockpit fire, with one feathered, the other one burning, while the patient in the back screams bloody murder because she's giving birth, and they forget the gear. I got it.
I do have a MAJOR problem with somebody just forgetting the thing on a sunny day in August, with ZERO excuses.
Still looking for that PM.

[Doc]

I've seen outfits like this on sheep. In New Zealand.

[CFR]

How did you arrive at that process? Were you born with it or did you learn it and improve it over time?

There were a lot of factors that led to my being able to plan ahead when flying.

First of all I had some very good teachers early in my career.

Second I expanded my areas of flying into the more demanding jobs such as aerial application, fire suppression, helicopters, gyroplanes, sail planes, airshow flying and of course airline flying.....which I found to be about as exciting as watching grass grow.

So I would say I learned by doing....and always getting excellent training first.

Personally I attribute my being accident free during my career to being able to say no when necessary and if it resulted in my being unemployed that was a plus because I do not work for anyone who uses intimidation in any form to push pilots into unsafe flying.

Does that help you understand how I got to here?

Yup You self taught/learned the Plan - Do - Check - Act - SMS cycle and use it. Congratulations, if you'd written a book about it 35 years ago you could be rich now.