hmmmm....the Persian gulf.....the gulf of Tonkin.

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bmc
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Post by bmc »

Them dammed Muslims again...



The botched US raid that led to the hostage crisis

By Patrick Cockburn
The Independant
Published: 03 April 2007

A failed American attempt to abduct two senior Iranian security officers on an official visit to northern Iraq was the starting pistol for a crisis that 10 weeks later led to Iranians seizing 15 British sailors and Marines.

Early on the morning of 11 January, helicopter-born US forces launched a surprise raid on a long-established Iranian liaison office in the city of Arbil in Iraqi Kurdistan. They captured five relatively junior Iranian officials whom the US accuses of being intelligence agents and still holds.

In reality the US attack had a far more ambitious objective, The Independent has learned. The aim of the raid, launched without informing the Kurdish authorities, was to seize two men at the very heart of the Iranian security establishment.

Better understanding of the seriousness of the US action in Arbil - and the angry Iranian response to it - should have led Downing Street and the Ministry of Defence to realise that Iran was likely to retaliate against American or British forces such as highly vulnerable Navy search parties in the Gulf. The two senior Iranian officers the US sought to capture were Mohammed Jafari, the powerful deputy head of the Iranian National Security Council, and General Minojahar Frouzanda, the chief of intelligence of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, according to Kurdish officials.

The two men were in Kurdistan on an official visit during which they met the Iraqi President, Jalal Talabani, and later saw Massoud Barzani, the President of the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG), at his mountain headquarters overlooking Arbil.

"They were after Jafari," Fuad Hussein, the chief of staff of Massoud Barzani, told The Independent. He confirmed that the Iranian office had been established in Arbil for a long time and was often visited by Kurds obtaining documents to visit Iran. "The Americans thought he [Jafari] was there," said Mr Hussein.

Mr Jafari was accompanied by a second, high-ranking Iranian official. "His name was General Minojahar Frouzanda, the head of intelligence of the Pasdaran [Iranian Revolutionary Guard]," said Sadi Ahmed Pire, now head of the Diwan (office) of President Talabani in Baghdad. Mr Pire previously lived in Arbil, where he headed the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), Mr Talabani's political party.

The attempt by the US to seize the two high-ranking Iranian security officers openly meeting with Iraqi leaders is somewhat as if Iran had tried to kidnap the heads of the CIA and MI6 while they were on an official visit to a country neighbouring Iran, such as Pakistan or Afghanistan. There is no doubt that Iran believes that Mr Jafari and Mr Frouzanda were targeted by the Americans. Mr Jafari confirmed to the official Iranian news agency, IRNA, that he was in Arbil at the time of the raid.

In a little-noticed remark, Manouchehr Mottaki, the Iranian Foreign Minister, told IRNA: "The objective of the Americans was to arrest Iranian security officials who had gone to Iraq to develop co-operation in the area of bilateral security."

US officials in Washington subsequently claimed that the five Iranian officials they did seize, who have not been seen since, were "suspected of being closely tied to activities targeting Iraq and coalition forces". This explanation never made much sense. No member of the US-led coalition has been killed in Arbil and there were no Sunni-Arab insurgents or Shia militiamen there.

The raid on Arbil took place within hours of President George Bush making an address to the nation on 10 January in which he claimed: "Iran is providing material support for attacks on American troops." He identified Iran and Syria as America's main enemies in Iraq though the four-year-old guerrilla war against US-led forces is being conducted by the strongly anti-Iranian Sunni-Arab community. Mr Jafari himself later complained about US allegations. "So far has there been a single Iranian among suicide bombers in the war-battered country?" he asked. "Almost all who involved in the suicide attacks are from Arab countries."

It seemed strange at the time that the US would so openly flout the authority of the Iraqi President and the head of the KRG simply to raid an Iranian liaison office that was being upgraded to a consulate, though this had not yet happened on 11 January. US officials, who must have been privy to the White House's new anti-Iranian stance, may have thought that bruised Kurdish pride was a small price to pay if the US could grab such senior Iranian officials.

For more than a year the US and its allies have been trying to put pressure on Iran. Security sources in Iraqi Kurdistan have long said that the US is backing Iranian Kurdish guerrillas in Iran. The US is also reportedly backing Sunni Arab dissidents in Khuzestan in southern Iran who are opposed to the government in Tehran. On 4 February soldiers from the Iraqi army 36th Commando battalion in Baghdad, considered to be under American control, seized Jalal Sharafi, an Iranian diplomat.

The raid in Arbil was a far more serious and aggressive act. It was not carried out by proxies but by US forces directly. The abortive Arbil raid provoked a dangerous escalation in the confrontation between the US and Iran which ultimately led to the capture of the 15 British sailors and Marines - apparently considered a more vulnerable coalition target than their American comrades.
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Post by Dex »

There's something about war I just cant place my tongue on...........
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/bf6a00e4-e14b-1 ... e2340.html
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Post by Driving Rain »

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2007/ ... 15-ap.html

I told you it was trade time.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... c&start=25


By NASSER KARIMI

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - An Iranian diplomat in Iraq seized two months ago by uniformed gunmen has been released, Iran said Tuesday.

In Baghdad, a senior Iraqi Foreign Ministry official said his government was "intensively" seeking the release of five Iranians detained there by U.S. forces.

The Iraqi official also said Iraq had exerted pressure on those holding the Iranian diplomat, Jalal Sharafi, who was released Monday and returned to Tehran on Tuesday. The official would not say who had held the diplomat.

The developments came as British Prime Minister Tony Blair said the next two days would be "fairly critical" to resolving the dispute over Royal Navy sailors and marines seized by Iran.

Iran's official Islamic Republic News Agency confirmed Sharafi's release but gave no indication of the circumstances surrounding his Feb. 4 disappearance or his release.

In January, the U.S. military seized five Iranians in northern Iraq, accusing them of links to an Iranian Revolutionary Guard faction that funds and arms insurgents and militias in Iraq.

"We are intensively seeking the release of the five Iranians," the senior official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters. "This will be a factor that will help in the release of the British sailors and marines."
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Post by LH »

Nark ------the US aiding Britain in some fashion is old news and started with the Lend Lease Act of WW2 as you know. Hell, the Brits only finished paying back that debt some 5-7 years ago as it is.

Bush staying out of it? I'd strongly suggest that he has no choice for about 4-5 home-inspired reasons.

Happy "twiddling" and I wish you well buddy.

Dex ------ soon as Europe stops beating their chests and feeling smug, perhaps they can step-up and be the major financier of the UN. Until they do, they might want to remember who the major financier of the UN lending agencies is and always has been and finish paying back the monies loaned to many of them to by the same country during WW2 and after. Once they do that, they can resume beating their chests again.
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Post by Driving Rain »

LHwrote
Nark ------the US aiding Britain in some fashion is old news and started with the Lend Lease Act of WW2 as you know. Hell, the Brits only finished paying back that debt some 5-7 years ago as it is.
One again you are full of BS LH :oops:
http://fusilier.wordpress.com/2006/12/2 ... -off-debt/

Britain will settle its World War II debts to the US and Canada when it pays two final instalments before the close of 2006, the Treasury has said.The payments of $83.25m (£42.5m) to the US and US$22.7m (£11.6m) to Canada are the last of 50 instalments since 1950.

The amount paid back is nearly double that loaned in 1945 and 1946. “This week we finally honour in full our commitments to the US and Canada for the support they gave us 60 years ago,” said Treasury Minister Ed Balls.

“It was vital support which helped Britain defeat Nazi Germany and secure peace and prosperity in the post-war period. We honour our commitments to them now as they honoured their commitments to us all those years ago,” he added.

The last payments will be made on Friday, the final working day of the year.

If you'd been paying attention there was a thread about it on AV Canada last November.
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Post by Driving Rain »

DPost
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Post by 2R »

Whatever happens the point has been made that Iranians have been involved in the War .Iranian military advisers are not in Iraq to sell beer .What the extent of their involvement in the insurgent killing is good for debate but what nobody can deny is that their were operating in a War Zone away from their embassies and consuls .Engaged in activities that are not in keeping with diplomatic status and some High ranking Iranian military advisers were operating without diplomatic credentials in a foreign country .

Foreign Active Military high ranking officers in a War Zone can be considered an Act of War.


The Real mystery will be what side were they fighting on ???The fact that they are still alive perhaps suggests they were working on our behalf knowingly or unknowingly that gave us information that will be useful to the destruction of the insurgents before they can kill any more Nato troops.

It sounds like a deal has been made .Who blinked first does not matter as now the world knows that what the" Iranians accused the Americans and British of being involved in Foreign Wars .The Iranians are also involved in another countries sovereign affairs.That point will not be lost on Iran's neighbours
:wink: :wink:
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Post by LH »

Driving Rain ------- 5-7 years ago or just last month....who cares? Either way it was a long time since the end of WW2. I also don't know everything in this world, nor want to and freely admit it. There are tons of subjects that I have nothing to do with on this site for just that reason.......check for yourself. As far as your opinion of me, I'm afraid I'll have to beg your pardon because you're mistaking me........you are mistaking me for someone who "gives a shit" what you think.
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Post by LH »

You are so correct. I find some of this very funny at times because of the blame many countries like to foist on Canada, Britain, the US or "the West" in general.

Let's see now. We all know that the Bible is totally made up of continuous warring in the Middle East from the beginning of time. The Old Testament is made up of all the wars BEFORE the birth of Christ and the New Testament tells about all the wars AFTER the birth of Christ. We also study about these wars when we attend school while growing up. These wars continue while we grow into adulthood also. Now we reach the point where we understand from many in the Middle East and that we in "the West" were/are responsible for all of this. Right!

They'd still be continuing butcher each other in the Middle East in some manner or another whether they'd ever heard of Canada, Britain, the US or oil. The Bible, the Koran and recorded history proves that.
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Post by 2R »

Dame Thatcher gave a speech to the House of commons in 1984 ,she said that some of the great achievements of her Government was that the war debt had been paid off early.That is the money that Britain borrowed so they could fight the Nazies .The monies being talked about now are the funds borrowed to rebuild the destruction that the Nazies wrought upon Great Britain.

The actual price in blood that Britain paid fighting the Nazies is beyond comprehension of most North Americans who still were enjoying food while Britain was being starved by the U-boats,Bombed by henkels ,V-1's ,V-2's .

Consider what would have happened if Churchill had of made the deal with Hitler that was proposed by Lord Halifax and some of the politicians of the day. Why else did Hess go to Glasgow ??? the deal was that close
Some are familiar with the we shall fight them on the beaches speech .But the most important words ever spoken by Churchill in the entire War was when he told the American President "That if America did not help We shall save ourselves" America knew that meant they would be fighting in the streets of New York as soon as the Americana bomber was completed.

When talking of money do not forget that some paid a higher price for our freedoms .
Lest We Forget
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Post by 2R »

When talking of money do not forget that some paid a higher price for our freedoms .
Lest We Forget
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Post by JakeYYZ »

bmc wrote: A failed American attempt to abduct two senior Iranian security officers on an official visit to northern Iraq was the starting pistol for a crisis that 10 weeks later led to Iranians seizing 15 British sailors and Marines.
So the Iranians supposedly took some Brits hostage because the US failed to captured some of their military inside Iraq. ….Sounds like a guy talking himself into believing his own too-clever-by-half theory....
Crap...my naiveté meter just exploded.
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Post by LH »

2R ----so true and my point was not to mean the Brits or anyone else were to be "ever beholding" to the USA for their monetary assistance during WW2. Some never paid back at all and quickly forgot assitance of any kind from anyone........including Canadian help and lives lost on their behalf.

Things are never "black and white" either and many forget that Churchill's wife Jenny was a born and raised American citizen when he married her. So Churchill had other "connections' with America besides the fact that he and Roosevelt "hit it off" from first meeting. The American/British connection ran far deeper than money and it would have been made available "come Hell or high water" anyway because Americans were flying in the Battle of Britain, training pilots in Canada and joining British and Canadian Services in droves as it was. So the fact America loaned money to Britain in WW2 is secondary really. Of primary importance is that Britain has never forgotten that fact, are deeply appreciative and always will be.
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Post by Driving Rain »

LH wrote:
Driving Rain ------- 5-7 years ago or just last month....who cares?
Well you would if anyone else on this board had made that error. You just love to jump down other posters throats when they make even small errors in their posts. Check it out SIR
There are tons of subjects that I have nothing to do with on this site for just that reason.......check for yourself. As far as your opinion of me, I'm afraid I'll have to beg your pardon because you're mistaking me........you are mistaking me for someone who "gives a shit" what you think.
I have to assume because you are posting on this thread that you care about this subject. If that's true than you should present historical information correctly. Your back handed apology reveals so much about you. I won't bore other members of this board writing what I think of you. You do a fine job of that all by yourself. :roll:
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Post by LH »

Driving Rain ..........this is a site on the internet, not the Oxford Debating Society or the Provincial Legislature. Why would I or anyone else "care" about what is written here as long as it's within certain guidelines of those who operate the site? This a great place to exchange ideas, sometimes get information and entertainment to pass the time. If one doesn't care to read about something anymore orconverse with someone anymore then all they have to do is go "Click" with their mouse and the subject iand person is GONE!!". So try it on me and watch how fast I disappear. :lol:
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Post by Driving Rain »

Driving Rain ..........this is a site on the internet, not the Oxford Debating Society or the Provincial Legislature.
What's wrong with asking for historical accuracy?
Why would I or anyone else "care" about what is written here as long as it's within certain guidelines of those who operate the site?
Exactly!
If one doesn't care to read about something anymore orconverse with someone anymore then all they have to do is go "Click" with their mouse and the subject iand person is GONE!!"
Where did you get the idea that I don't wish to read or converse anymore? You always point out the errors of others yet when someone points out yours, you start with the insults and innuendo. You have an online presence, you have to be able to accept constructive criticism. The internet is an interactive place not unlike the Oxford debating Society or a Provincial Legislature SIR!!!
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Post by bmc »

BREAKING NEWS -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says he has pardoned the 15 British sailors and marines detained last month and will set them free.

I wonder if this will inspire Bush to release the hundreds of captives in Guantanamo held without charge.
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Post by JakeYYZ »

I wonder what deal Britain made. I wonder if we will ever know.
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Post by bmc »

JakeYYZ wrote:I wonder what deal Britain made. I wonder if we will ever know.
Good point because I've been wondering why the Brits have been awfully quiet about the whole deal.
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Post by bob sacamano »

I believe the brits pledged that this will not occur again, and their marines will not enter iranian waters.
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Post by Driving Rain »

Thanks for the boats guns and other stuff. :roll:
http://www.vtplc.com/halmatic/product.a ... 2&catid=93
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Post by LH »

Driving Rain ------- out of common courtesy I'll reply once more and then you can post away on this subject all by yourself to your heart's content from thereon. This site and posting here appears to mean much more to you than it does me

1) You are correct about "historical accuracy". The specidic date that the British paid the Americans back was not not the point I was attempting to make. I see now that to you and possibly others, that date was of prime importance to the total. That was my oversight then because that was not part of the point I was aiming for. That point was that the British actually paid back, with interest, ALL monies loaned to her by America during WW2. THAT'S more important to Yours Truly then the exact or even vague date. My reason for stating so is that I defy anyone to name another country that did pay back monies loaned to them by America during WW2. European countries were in a bad way and both America and Canada "went to the wall" to aide and help them, both during and immediately after WW2. What did they get in return? England paid back her debts in full and continues to be a good ally. The rest? Except for Holland they forgot too easily, criticize us both too readily and even leave us "holding the bag" in Afghanistan.

2) The "guidelines" that I was referring to are NOT what you refer to. Those guidelines are that I am assuming that there is a limit on this site as there is on the vast majority as to the language that they will tolerate, the racism that they will tolerate and other attacks that could lead down the road to possible problems with their ISP who can themselves be shut down or curtailed by various legal means.

3) I also simply stated that if you don't wish to read me or anyone else anymore, then a "Click" with your mouse solves the situation immediately.....nothing more, nothing less.

4) If I read a mistatement of someone and I know that it is not accurate or untrue, I'll correct them. I've been corrected myself on thsi site on more than one occasion and if it's done in a proper and civil manner, I have absol;utely no problem wih that. I also do not deal in innuendo. If I believe you're a bastard, I will tell you so........not ask you if your mother and father were married. I prefer to be like that, but even if I didn't what do I have to fear anyway. There also was no attempt by me at any "backhanded apology". If I want to apologize in person or in writing I use the Queen's English and do so.........and don't get into innuendo. If you believe otherwise well then "things are tough all over".

I've now taken the time and acknowledged your reply to me as a courtesy. I believe that you misunderstood my intentions when I made the first posts. I have no quibble with anyone concerning "historical accuracy" normally, but it's of much more importance to me that Britain actually repaid her debts in full to the USA than the date on which she actually did it. I personally don't care whether it was 1957, 1977 or just last week but the country of France might want to take note and shut their critcizing mouths until they do so.

THE END
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Post by Driving Rain »

This site and posting here appears to mean much more to you than it does me
Come on now LH were both rank 9's I'd say were pretty even on that score.
I see now that to you and possibly others, that date was of prime importance to the total. That was my oversight then because that was not part of the point I was aiming for. That point was that the British actually paid back, with interest, ALL monies loaned to her by America during WW2.
Ok then, just say that, no need to include fictitious dates to make your point. I never argued that point.
2) The "guidelines" that I was referring to are NOT what you refer to. Those guidelines are that I am assuming that there is a limit on this site as there is on the vast majority as to the language that they will tolerate, the racism that they will tolerate and other attacks that could lead down the road to possible problems with their ISP who can themselves be shut down or curtailed by various legal means.
I've never even come close to that line. I don't know why you'd even go there. :?:
3) I also simply stated that if you don't wish to read me or anyone else anymore, then a "Click" with your mouse solves the situation immediately.....nothing more, nothing less.
Well I hate to burst your bubble but I've known that for some time. Kind of works like a TV or radio in that respect. :roll: I translate the above statement to mean you don't like what I've stated than don't correct me. Sorry, the internet isn't a one way street.
There also was no attempt by me at any "backhanded apology". If I want to apologize in person or in writing I use the Queen's English and do so.........and don't get into innuendo. If you believe otherwise well then "things are tough all over".
As far as your opinion of me, I'm afraid I'll have to beg your pardon because you're mistaking me........you are mistaking me for someone who "gives a shit" what you think?

I suppose this is your idea of the Queens English. I don't know were your from ...{I'm going to guess Manitoba} but in the rest of the English speaking world this would qualify as backhanded .

England paid back her debts in full and continues to be a good ally. The rest? Except for Holland they forgot too easily, criticize us both too readily and even leave us "holding the bag" in Afghanistan.


France and the former Soviet Union have not made any effort at all to repay their debt. I don't believe you should be using broad brush strokes for the "rest" holding the bag. Our former enemies Germany and Japan are both contributors to the Afghan mission. Norway and Denmark both overrun by Germany in WWII and receivers of post war aid are also contributors. In fact the German commitment is almost equal to ours. Germany to this day has and is still paying billions in reparations to Israel so I think they could be forgivin their war debt for a while longer. They sure make great cars though. :roll: The Dutch troop strength is almost equal to ours. Italy is also a contributor with over 2000 troops there.
Funny thing about Afghanistan is, if the US had of kept their noses out of there when the Soviet's were in there, would we have the can of worms it's become today?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4673026.stm
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/sep20 ... -s04.shtml
http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2005/10/03/64316.html
http://www.norway.org/News/archive/2002 ... forces.htm'
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F= ... &C=landwar
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/ ... 6078.shtml
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Post by Dex »

I am sure Pelosi will be a hero in Britian now. Good job Pelosi!!!!
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Post by LH »

Driving Rain ----- if you're intention was to "bait me" on the Afghanistan issue, then I'll not sit quiet on that one my friend because that hits very close to home and family. Again, if you misunderstood what I meant before in this regard, then there's no problem. If you didn't misunderstand and I am reading your position correctly, then we will diagree on this until the end of time.

First of all, Germany and Japan were not our allies during WW2 and no money was spent on them by us or the US until AFTER fighting had ceased. Those countries that should pay-back do not include those who were assisted after WW2 through the Marshall Plan or some other aide package. General Charles De Gaulle and the French government never paid back one sou towards all the monies that were loaned to them and the efforts extended on their behalf. He even got his apartment in London free of charge after he fled the Continent and led the Free French government-at-large.

You have also named allies who are "contributing" in Afghanistan. I never stated at any time that they weren't THERE, if that's what you and others define as "contributing". To the Canadian government, CDS Rick Hillier and the Canadian troops there, it also means actually coming out into the field and helping in the danger zones and not leaving it all up to the Brits, Americans and mostly the Canadians. Canada itself has chastized their in-place and supposed allies for putting so many restrictions on their troop movements with regards their movements, that they are not "pulling their weight" and Canada is getting fed up with it all. I've also read articles where there is an increasing concern that this lack of willingness to assist a NATO ally (Canada) in a NATO-inspired exercise is going to have far-reaching effects on NATO when this is all over.

I know what I read, seen on "The National" and other news sources on this subject. Therefore I have to go along with what the CAF Generals' definition of "contributing" in Afghanistan is. Until those countries who we and the US helped monetarily and gave lives for during WW2 pay back their loans and/or curtail their criticizing yaps, I'll personally "paint" any of them whenever they bad-mouth us and don't lend a hand when we need their help. They needed that help twice before and they got everything we and the US had to give. The Vimy Memorial Ceremonies in the next few days prooves that in "spades". That's my definition of "contibuting" and it ain't sitting around in northern Afghanistan doing next to nothing because they don't want to get involved and watching the Canadians "pull their load for them". If we had "contributed" in the same fashion in WW2, Germany would probably still own their lands.........and I'd know three uncles who I never was privileged enough to meet.

This all started because of the subject of the Brits and the Iranians. Once again, the Iranians know full well that if it wasn't for the oil technology of the west, they couldn't find, bring to the surface, refine nor transport the very oil that drives their economy and provides them with their monies for modern a/c and to conduct their wars. They also can't look to Russia for help in that regard because if it wasn't for that same western technology and assistance, Russian State Oil would be a very bad way itself. So everyone will just have to "cut me some slack" if I don't take these folks who govern Iranand their "posturing" too seriously. They know all too well who gets that oil for them and puts the money for it into their hands. At the same time they have their sons/daughters going to Oxford, etc., wear their traditional dress "in-country" for Iranian consumption, but wear Seville Row tailor-made $3000 suits everywhere else and drive their Bentleys and Mercedes Benz. One of their ruling Mullahs was going through some form of "male manopause" and got his nose outta joint that's all.........something like "the flavour of the day". They've known about the dissention over the off-shore border for the last half century and nobody can agree on where it actually is......it's really very old news in that part of the world.
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