337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

Locked
CFR
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: CYAV

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by CFR »

Doc wrote:
All Sides wrote: Everytime you T/O & land the odds of a accident go up. Sometimes we have so many distractions going on at one time to distract us. On Avcanada so many pilots are stating their opinions without having enough or any of the facts.
Interesting. If you do, indeed feel that way (statistics are on your side here, BTW) why get out of bed in the morning. The more often you buy Tim Horton's coffee, the more likely you are to spill coffee all over your nice new dress. The more often you pick your nose, the more likely you are to being seen,
The more often I fly (we've already established the FACT that I'm a God) the better I get at it. The more easily I can deal with distractions.
Remember, people have opinions.
Now, I have no problem with the crew, fighting a cockpit fire, with one feathered, the other one burning, while the patient in the back screams bloody murder because she's giving birth, and they forget the gear. I got it.
I do have a MAJOR problem with somebody just forgetting the thing on a sunny day in August, with ZERO excuses.
Still looking for that PM.
The odds don't change as clearly as stated. The odds of having an error stay low if you do things correctly. Once consistent repeated error creeps in then the odds change for every flight. Rarely are accidents the result of an AND/OR situation. Even leaving gear up is a series of AND's. You have to be landing, AND you have to not followed your checklist AND you have to fail to respond to any annunciators (or do a non-standard landing that prevents them from sounding) AND you need to not do a visual check AND you need to fail to recognize why the power is pulled back further than normal to slow for landing, etc. If all those don't line up, the accident doesn't occur but an error(s) has still taken place. It is the number of errors over time that can affect the odds. Can a gear up landing happen the first time all the errors are present? Possible but unlikely. More likely that on more than one occasion the errors took place but got caught early or later in the chain. You have stated that you will never land gear up because you have a number of defences in place. Have you ever made it through one or more of these safeguards and found you hadn't put the gear down? If so then that is counted has an error, not a win!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Congratulations, if you'd written a book about it 35 years ago you could be rich now.
There are some things books can not teach....how to think is one of them.

Over the last half century I have watched the expansion of new ideas put forth by the academics in aviation and embraced by the drones in Government cubicles, we have a never ending alphabet soup of acronyms and sets of rules that have become an industry in its self.

Take a accident prone pilot that has no common sense, mechanical appitude and no ability to think ahead and all the reading in the world will not change the fact you have a well read accident prone pilot.

Quite frankly I think the industry has way to low entrance requirements and is far to tolerant of minimum achievers that should not hold commercial pilot licenses and the license that is just barely more difficult to get the ATPL .
---------- ADS -----------
 
CFR
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: CYAV

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by CFR »

. . wrote:
Congratulations, if you'd written a book about it 35 years ago you could be rich now.
Take a accident prone pilot that has no common sense, mechanical appitude and no ability to think ahead and all the reading in the world will not change the fact you have a well read accident prone pilot.
Agreed, but if a system is in place to identify that pilot and provide remedial training up to a point and then remove them from the mix if they remain unable to meet standards , why is that a bad thing? A key part of the issue is having a good understanding of why people do, what they do. Then you will see that labels such as "accident prone" and having no "common sense" are superficial labels for behaviour that in most cases has been learned and can be un-learned. At the end of the day however, there are indeed people who should not be allowed to fly, in fact the day will come for all of us when that becomes true, either through a self made decision or an imposed one.

In any event what you do seems to work for you, don't change.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

CFR I am well aware of all the background noise the industry embraces in the attempt to level the playing field and thus allow low talent people to move up the ladder of employment sometimes past the level they should be at and they smash up an airplane or airplanes.

For decades I was in the advanced flight training business and saw it all from small airplane training to the modern airline training and trust me I do understand how the industry works.

I had no problem removing the incompetent when needed.

What I get from the tone of your posts is you are attempting to lecture me on this subject.

My last formal training course was at the Airbus Factory in Toulouse, what was yours?
---------- ADS -----------
 
CFR
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: CYAV

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by CFR »

. . wrote:CFR I am well aware of all the background noise the industry embraces in the attempt to level the playing field and thus allow low talent people to move up the ladder of employment sometimes past the level they should be at and they smash up an airplane or airplanes.

For decades I was in the advanced flight training business and saw it all from small airplane training to the modern airline training and trust me I do understand how the industry works.

I had no problem removing the incompetent when needed.

What I get from the tone of your posts is you are attempting to lecture me on this subject.

My last formal training course was at the Airbus Factory in Toulouse, what was yours?
.. First I re-read my posts and see no tone in it, you are mistaken. Second I am not interested in measuring dick size, it seems to be your approach to things when a discussion is not going as you want it to, however as a hint before I retired I was very high up in the safety chain in DND; I taught what you learned. Third training alone does not mean competence. As I believe you have said a piece of paper has never saved anyone. I know many highly educated people who have difficulty putting what they learned into practice (I hesitate calling them stupid as that is too broad a label). It seems that while you have taken the training, you do not believe in what you learned. That is fine by the way, there are many programs I do not believe in (I have a problem with the Steven Covey approach to things - It takes more self discipline than most people can muster) and have regularly rejected the "flavour of the week" approach to things. But you do appear to believe in an approach that works for you, I applaud that and suspect it will continue to do so. I believe in a more systematic approach, but am glad as hell that I am now out of the game (beyond how it applies to me personally) because there are simply too many people who pay lip service to safety, who believe berating the individual is correcting the problem. Fourth it is too bad you appear unable to have a discussion on the merits of a topic without turning it into an adversarial confrontation at some point. I don't care enough about you to try and lecture you, and in any event even in the short time I have been here I recognize that there are a number of people here who are set in their ways and are not interested in any view that conflicts with their own. Finally on occasion I have learned from your posts and appreciate it, too bad the wheat has to be gleaned from so much chaff.

Out
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Doc »

CFR wrote: You have stated that you will never land gear up because you have a number of defences in place. Have you ever made it through one or more of these safeguards and found you hadn't put the gear down? If so then that is counted has an error, not a win!
Actually, no, I haven't. Seriously. But. There's always a but. The defences I gave were basically different points at which I lower the gear, and/or check on it. The real defences kick in, as stated, at 5 miles (at which time, if they're not down, its on purpose) when selecting full flap (they're ALWAYS down at this point, or I wouldn't be dropping full flap)(there is NO reason to select full flaps with the wheels in the wells....it would be a VERY good idea to make this part of your regime) and before that final power reduction to land. I NEVER select full flaps until I've decided to land. If I have decided not to land, I don't really need to check the gear position. At which point I just go to climb power, gear up......and away I go. This is NOT rocket science. I have no idea why pilots make it so difficult?
---------- ADS -----------
 
CFR
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: CYAV

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by CFR »

Doc wrote:
CFR wrote: You have stated that you will never land gear up because you have a number of defences in place. Have you ever made it through one or more of these safeguards and found you hadn't put the gear down? If so then that is counted has an error, not a win!
Actually, no, I haven't. Seriously. But. There's always a but. The defences I gave were basically different points at which I lower the gear, and/or check on it. The real defences kick in, as stated, at 5 miles (at which time, if they're not down, its on purpose) when selecting full flap (they're ALWAYS down at this point, or I wouldn't be dropping full flap)(there is NO reason to select full flaps with the wheels in the wells....it would be a VERY good idea to make this part of your regime) and before that final power reduction to land. I NEVER select full flaps until I've decided to land. If I have decided not to land, I don't really need to check the gear position. At which point I just go to climb power, gear up......and away I go. This is NOT rocket science. I have no idea why pilots make it so difficult?
Sounds like a good process to me. I can also say that I will never land with the gear up, but only because I fly fixed gear.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Doc »

CFR wrote:
Sounds like a good process to me. I can also say that I will never land with the gear up, but only because I fly fixed gear.
There's the best defence there is!
I did tell YWG tower that "I am coming in on one...." Got an immediate landing clearance. They were less than impressed when they saw the Caravan. But.....I did not LIE!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Doc, I think were you and I are having problems with this discussion is we believe that with discipline and attention to what we are doing we are not as prone to wrecking an airplane as those who do not have discipline and pay attention to their environment at the moment.

The gear position issue is a very good example of disciplined operation of your aircraft.

Like you I have built in points in my flight profile where must do actions are performed and performed in the correct manner, I have been flying amphibious aircraft since 1954 and have done thousands of landings on both water and land with them.

I have never landed with the gear selected in the wrong position because EVERY TIME I turn final I say to myself " Where am I landing and where is my gear " then just prior to the flare I double check both the surface ahead of me and my gear position.

I do not have a valid pilot license at this time because I let my medical lapse.....if I do go back to flying the same discipline will just continue like it never stopped because I believe in discipline in my flying.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1705
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: right base 24 CYSN

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by pdw »

. . wrote:I have never landed with the gear selected in the wrong position because EVERY TIME I turn final I say to myself " Where am I landing and where is my gear " then just prior to the flare I double check both the surface ahead of me and my gear position.
You're basically saying it all right there. You refused over all that time to allow A FAILURE to occur in selecting gear positions, and you are describing it as having been a straightforward chore. So you have (successfully) never permitted any distraction to get in the way of this/your 'strategy' to ensure selecting a required gear position, ever. It does not even sound like this was a difficult achievement.

Those that have experienced A FAILURE seem to be going through a nightmare, .... makes you wonder does 'fear of' have something to do with it that some aren't able to simplify their strategy enough to stick with them reliably thru thick and thin as you have experienced, ... so in essence their worst fears were realized ....
---------- ADS -----------
 
2.5milefinal
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 10:39 am

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by 2.5milefinal »

" Where am I landing and where is my gear "
.,
Ever since I first read that (how long ago did you first post it?) I do the same thing.
Due too the variety of stuff I fly sometimes I have added one thing though. "what am I flying?...".
Maybe folks, we should try and teach a little more instead of 'lecture'.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Due too the variety of stuff I fly sometimes I have added one thing though. "what am I flying?...".
Good point.

About twenty five years ago I used to ask the same thing I was flying all kinds of stuff day after day from a helicopter I owned to all kinds of fixed wing stuff from a Turbo Commander to a 185 on amphibs so by default I had to say to myself " Where an I landing and where is my gear " then I had to mentally look at what I was in to determine what to do. :smt040

The secret is have a rock solid check list that is fool proof and never forget to use it...that keeps your brain connected to your activity at the moment.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Doc »

. . wrote:
Due too the variety of stuff I fly sometimes I have added one thing though. "what am I flying?...".
Good point.

About twenty five years ago I used to ask the same thing I was flying all kinds of stuff day after day from a helicopter I owned to all kinds of fixed wing stuff from a Turbo Commander to a 185 on amphibs so by default I had to say to myself " Where an I landing and where is my gear " then I had to mentally look at what I was in to determine what to do. :smt040

The secret is have a rock solid check list that is fool proof and never forget to use it...that keeps your brain connected to your activity at the moment.
I don't use check lists, until something breaks. Never have.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I don't use check lists, until something breaks. Never have.
Doc....

.......my use of " Check list " was generic......my check list is from memory...I do not pick up a check list and read it. :mrgreen:

When my cognitive process gets so weak I can not remember a landing check list and where the gear should be I will quit flying.

O.K. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Now stand by Doc and lets see how many comments we get about how we do things....

Best defense we have is we have a SOP. :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by AuxBatOn »

I tie my past gear/flaps/hook check with the rad alt warning going off. I set it at 200'AGL before my descent.

Tie your checks to something that gets your attention and it will help you remember you need to be looking at something!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Doc »

AuxBatOn wrote:I tie my past gear/flaps/hook check with the rad alt warning going off. I set it at 200'AGL before my descent.

Tie your checks to something that gets your attention and it will help you remember you need to be looking at something!
Very good idea. When the chick on the GPS says "five hundred" I always glance at the pretty green lights. Good one AuxBatOn. Take note folks.
---------- ADS -----------
 
2.5milefinal
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 10:39 am

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by 2.5milefinal »

Sorry doc, . but this is where we part ways (yet again 8) ).
I have tried both memory and paper.
And I believe in the use of a paper checklist...as long as its a good one that is.
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by AuxBatOn »

I always bring my checklist with me, as per our regulation. Having said that, I rarely take it out, unless something goes wrong. I have flows memorized for all phases of flight and for time critical emergencies and some non-critical (that tend to happen more often...). More efficient. If after 50 hours you need to look at a piece of paper to remember what's next, you have bigger issues!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I always bring my checklist with me, as per our regulation. Having said that, I rarely take it out, unless something goes wrong. I have flows memorized for all phases of flight and for time critical emergencies and some non-critical (that tend to happen more often...). More efficient. If after 50 hours you need to look at a piece of paper to remember what's next, you have bigger issues!!
Amen..
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Doc »

. . wrote:
I always bring my checklist with me, as per our regulation. Having said that, I rarely take it out, unless something goes wrong. I have flows memorized for all phases of flight and for time critical emergencies and some non-critical (that tend to happen more often...). More efficient. If after 50 hours you need to look at a piece of paper to remember what's next, you have bigger issues!!
Amen..
+++1
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Doc »

2.5milefinal wrote:Sorry doc, . but this is where we part ways (yet again 8) ).
I have tried both memory and paper.
And I believe in the use of a paper checklist...as long as its a good one that is.
Why I don't believe in paper checklists: too many use them as a "read, then do", which is incorrect. A checklist simply backs up actions already carried out. Another problem I have with them, is the blind faith pilots put in them. Problem here (huge one) is, if interrupted items tend to be missed. Nothing comes even close to a good geographic scan.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Another problem with dependance on reading and doing a paper check list is if for some reason the pilot can not find it when he/she needs it the airplane then starts to get ahead of the pilot.

That will not happen to a pilot who uses situational awareness and a memory to do check.
---------- ADS -----------
 
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8133
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by iflyforpie »

Doc wrote:
. . wrote:
I always bring my checklist with me, as per our regulation. Having said that, I rarely take it out, unless something goes wrong. I have flows memorized for all phases of flight and for time critical emergencies and some non-critical (that tend to happen more often...). More efficient. If after 50 hours you need to look at a piece of paper to remember what's next, you have bigger issues!!
Amen..
+++1
+++2

I've always got normal and emergency checklists handy on the 337, but acronyms and flows are how I fly the airplane. Even when TC does my 337 PPC, checklists only come out to confirm items, not to tell me how to fly the airplane.

.'s mantra has stuck with me for years as well. I'm always on short final thinking about the surface I am about to land on and if my craft is in a condition to properly support itself.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: 337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Jeses Doc, there are pilots out there who actually think about how we do things and agree.

Now all we have to do is educate your pal CID. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Locked

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”