First Air off course

[trey kule]

Still learning. Are you a pilot? I am just curious...not a condescending question.

And, can you get GPS on an Iphone? Us old guys are sometimes way out of it when it comes to technology. Not that it matters, as my phone pretty much is only a phone and a selfie taker, but again , curious.

There are two puzzling posts on this thread.

The first regards someone bad mouthing the CADORS reporter and stating the aircraft was only a few miles off course. In depth, and incorrect knowledge....at the same time....makes me wonder which seat they were sitting in on the flight deck, or who their spouse is.

And the second, stating the crew recognized the problem (presumably before they were contacted by another aircraft), and self reported...not sure that is an option really when you have been CADORS 'd already. A bit odd to mention it, as it smacks of excuse making...and makes me wonder again, if the poster was not occuppying a front seat.

Do people here really think that when you FU royally, all you need to do is "self report". Then all should be forgotten. Unless one is going to use the report to try and avoid hiring pikots like this in the future, SMS is not really applicable.
To bad some people think that this kind of incident indicates a failing in the SMS.

If there was no equipment isdues, this was a huge screw up...by Two crew members...huge.

[Still learning]

RE:
Still learning. Are you a pilot? I am just curious...not a condescending question.

And, can you get GPS on an Iphone? Us old guys are sometimes way out of it when it comes to technology. Not that it matters, as my phone pretty much is only a phone and a selfie taker, but again , curious.

Yes to both.

[CFR]

Foreflight and other apps for the iphone or Ipad do not need to be in cell range as they download maps to the device. The GPS in the phone gives location information which can be made more accurate with a linked (via bluetooth,etc) dedicated GPS add on. Works great and is a good backup to the backups.

[MrWings]

Really fired our suspended with pay.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/fir ... -1.2602050

Fired.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/fir ... -1.2605682

[Changes in Latitudes]

I'm surprised that a company would be able to fire two ALPA backed pilots so quickly.

[CpnCrunch]

“During the interviews, we learned the pilots did not follow our standard operating procedures designed to eliminate navigational errors,” a news release from First Air said.

[tbaylx]

Ah pilots fired, great! Now the problems are clearly solved and nothing like that could ever happen again. Excellent leadership there by First Air flight ops management

[ahramin]

Exactly. I wonder if the chief pilot follows all those pesky SOPs he's responsible for when he's flying.

I will be very surprised if these pilots stay fired. Anyone want to bet they are reinstated within 3 months?

[dhc#]

Seems like a rather "knee jerk" reaction by Fubar Air management on the heals of the damning TSB report on the Resolute Bay crash, wondering how moral is doing at 7F these days in light of all this bad press ??

[ditar]

Hopefully the chief pilot does follow them, otherwise he's part of the problem.

The non-punitive aspect of SMS does not cover willful negligence. If the crew willfully disregarded SOP's as the press release suggests, then there is nobody to be held accountable except themselves. The company can put all the rules in place that it wants. It's still up to the employees to follow them. How they deal with those who choose not to is their prerogative.

[trey kule]

Just to add a bit of balance here. Does anyone actually know what the breeches in the SOPs were?

Sometimes, they are serious enough to warrant firing. It seems to me with two crew allowing a plane to get so far off course, and only recognizing it when advised, the deviation is serious.

And SMS was not envisioned, as some here seem to believe, to deal with pilot incompetence.

Some of the posts claiming they were only a few miles off course in an attempt to kill the thread, and others claiming that the pilots recognized the problem, corrected it, and self reported are laughable.
Makes one wonder if they were not occupying the front seats as they seem to have very good knowledge of what happened....but that is just my cynical self.

In any event, I am sure we all hope it will not occur again

Edited. Ditar posted my thoughts first

[tbaylx]

Just to add a bit of balance here. Does anyone actually know what the breeches in the SOPs were?

Sometimes, they are serious enough to warrant firing. It seems to me with two crew allowing a plane to get so far off course, and only recognizing it when advised, the deviation is serious.

And SMS was not envisioned, as some here seem to believe, to deal with pilot incompetence.

Some of the posts claiming they were only a few miles off course in an attempt to kill the thread, and others claiming that the pilots recognized the problem, corrected it, and self reported are laughable.
Makes one wonder if they were not occupying the front seats as they seem to have very good knowledge of what happened....but that is just my cynical self.

In any event, I am sure we all hope it will not occur again

Edited. Ditar posted my thoughts first

The question should be, especially given the recent Resolute report, what is going wrong with our culture, training and/or CRM that is allowing these types of things to happen to experienced pilots within the Company and what do we have to do to get back on track. Nothing to do with SMS, its an internal issue within the Company that needs to be addressed. Firing pilots isn't going to fix that, and will likely make the problems worse as pilots start to CYA.

[boxcut]

I'm surprised that a company would be able to fire two ALPA backed pilots so quickly.

That's what I was thinking...

Is it:
a) The crew really screwed the pooch to the point that it was not a 'learning experience' or,
b) First Air is in PR mode until tomorrow's big announcement and the company wants to tie up loose ends quickly?

I don't want to defend GNEs, but I feel for Northern Pilots, they fly with outdated machines and ground facilities.

[trey kule]

The question should be, especially given the recent Resolute report, what is going wrong with our culture, training and/or CRM that is allowing these types of things to happen to experienced pilots within the Company and what do we have to do to get back on track.

Really? Of course this is all about company culture. The pilots are completely blameless. Victims, if you will.

Unless there are some unknowns here, this type of error is all about two pilots who do not deserve to be responsible for pax lives. Experience will not cover up for incompetence or wilful negligence. And if they were experienced, the former should not apply.

Morale. I would be thinking most of the remaining pilots should be glad they got rid of those two before they hurt anyone. And maybe take the time to reflect on what they are being paid to do..

Yep, it is harsh. Pilots have a job to do. Supposed to be professional. And yet we read about accidents where the pilot was stoned....and posters who think that is OK...we have pilots watching videos, playing games in the cockpit...and that is OK. And we have super multi taskers who can talk on their cell phone while taxiing...SOPs be damned.And picking and choosing which SOPs to follow...and that is OK because the CP apparently may not follow them all the time. Rationalize, rationalize. Excuse excuse...
How about some people taking ownership of their failure to act in a professional manner, when fate catches their incompetence?

Wilful negligence is not a lesson in learning. It is a career decision

My rant for the day.

[tbaylx]

Big difference between willful negligence and an operational error, comparing it to a pilot who shows up stoned is a bit much, but hey exaggerate to make your point, most everyone else does here. I never said they were blameless, I said that firing the pilots doesn't deal with the situation and really doesn't serve anyone's interests.

They aren't victims, they are part of the problem, however firing them isn't going to fix anything.

[cienki]

b) First Air is in PR mode until tomorrow's big announcement and the company wants to tie up loose ends quickly?

What is tomorrow's big announcement?

[swordfish]

I agree with Trey Kule...mostly.

The ramifications of continuing on the track they were on and not being able to reach anyone are far-reaching. A previous post said they had enough fuel to reach somewhere in Labrador...if, of course, you were aiming for Labrador. And why so much on board? Fuel costs less in Iqaluit that Rankin, and there is a price to pay tankering fuel around.

But running out of fuel while heading off towards Thule has serious ramifications. So the consequences are bound to be equally serious.

Anyone is entitled to comment on the "culture" at First Air only if you actually work there, and see problems. Which, as an outsider, I do not. Be careful of condemning the whole company or Northern pilots or Northern Operators or Northern anything-else unless you work here. In which case there are avenues to address systemic issues, and this public forum is not one of them.

These global slurs, innuendo, and generalizations are clearly coming from people who are not working around here, and don't have a clue what they're talking about. (and I'm not referring to trey kule, FICU, liquid charlie, latitudes, and a host of others who are well informed). I encourage you to hold back on what a friend told you, or what you heard from another company, or what you deduce from the fragments of aviation that you see or hear about. The press does enough harm without our own profession adding insult to injury.

Undoubtedly there are errors happening all over Canada that get covered up, corrected or not reported at all. We ALL make errors...it's just that some have more dramatic consequences. And we're paid NOT to make those errors.

[swordfish]

I would only rate a skill as unnecessary if it turned out that it wasn't any use in avoiding being lost and off course. One thing is for sure, nobody on the flight in question was taking star or sun shots, or NDB fixes, or dead reckoning, or any other "unnecessary" activity.

I think it's interesting how many people find merit in willful ignorance. It's almost as if you look down on people who know how to navigate in addition to knowing how to employ all the modern crutches. The fact is that the stars have always been there and always will be there. ADFs are still there. Maps are still there. Forecasted winds are still there. The sun is still there and does the same thing every day over and over again without end. You might as well take notice of it.

A generation or two ago people knew more than the generation before them and added their new skills to the old ones. Now we take pride in knowing less. If you happen to know more than the bare minimum necessary to survive you are somehow portrayed as being some kind of throwback who holds others to an unnecessarily high and unfair standard. Some of you guys need to learn to take some pride in your chosen profession and stop taking deliberate ignorance as some kind of token of intellectual superiority. It's not.

Very well said Frozen, bravo![/quote]

Actually, it was a bunch of mindless regurgitated mish-mash, Tuk. The point of my post was that the comment of still learning about DR navigation is that DR is rarely if ever used any more, as it is applied only in the event of complete loss of ground aids (usually NDBs, or out of range of the VORs). And with the advent of modern navigation equipment, nobody needs to DR any more. It was a stupid comment, and demonstrates that still learning's handle is well-selected.

[Still learning]

Actually, it was a bunch of mindless regurgitated mish-mash, Tuk. The point of my post was that the comment of still learning about DR navigation is that DR is rarely if ever used any more, as it is applied only in the event of complete loss of ground aids (usually NDBs, or out of range of the VORs). And with the advent of modern navigation equipment, nobody needs to DR any more. It was a stupid comment, and demonstrates that still learning's handle is well-selected.

Feels a little personal here! My point is: your heading matters, not suggesting any fancy navigation here.
Or perhaps you feel knowing your airspeed and heading are redundant now.
Mistakes are made by everyone, how will you catch them is the question.

FYI report from BBC today: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26957569
in part: "The Authorities say the 2 April event is a timely reminder that alternatives to satellite navigation are essential."
just saying

[Liquid Charlie]

I'm frankly shocked that First Air crews are still bombing around up there without knowing where the hell they are - it was precisely the same thing that caused the Resolute crash. Even Buffalo puts garmin 296s in their museum pieces. Hell, you can even spend $20 on an iphone app to get a moving map and basic terrain awareness.

one of the funniest posts I have ever read -- 7F likely has likely some of the best equipped aircraft flying in the north and in the past even better equipped than most of level 1 carriers at the time -- they had area navigation long before domestic main line carriers --

Part of the contributing factor to the YRB disaster was that was the one bastard airplane - was not yet upgraded with TAWS and the Universals --

Did this crew drop the ball -- well that is a no brainer -- has it happened to others -- of course and it can even happen to you -- likely a divergence from SOP and checking and confirming flight plans and both crew checking data entry or even as simple of not confirming the "direct too point-- pretty simple stuff but if you think for a moment that you are immune -- give your head a shake -- pay attention and learn something from someone else's mistake and be thankful you are not the one getting your ass scorched --

Oh -- and if you figure you need a screen and a moving map to fly an airplane -- ---------------- nuff said

[godsrcrazy]

I am not sure what is all in the First air cockpit for Nav aids these days. They use to have ADF, GPS and FMS. The fact that they have been flying in the north for decades suggests the pilots have everything they need to get from point A to B. Saying that i am sure there are a few that will point out the incident in resolute bay. However after decades and tens of thousands of safe flights in the Hi Arctic with many different types of aircraft i am sure the pilots were equipped with what they needed.

I do not have the facts but in my opinion his isn't just negligence by the crew but Gross Negligence. We can battle back and forth if they figured it out or someone relayed a message for them to call Montreal. How do you fly almost 2 hours and be that far of course and not realize it until you are suppose to land. Sorry no sympathy here.

[CpnCrunch]

Oh -- and if you figure you need a screen and a moving map to fly an airplane -- ---------------- nuff said

No, I don't think you need a moving map (or TAWS or synthetic vision) to fly an airplane. However they all contribute to situational awareness.

I think it boils down to this: are these all just bad pilots, or pilots who were having a bad day?

[frozen solid]

Swordfish, the quoted text is mine, not Still Learning's. I wasn't regurgitating anything, and it would be nice if you clarified what part you found mindless. Re-reading it I can see that you may have felt I was attacking you personally, and I didn't mean to be so aggressive with my post. I apologize for implying a lack of professionalism on your part. The point I was trying to make was that I don't think it's appropriate to be dismissive of traditional navigation in favour of modern aids, if you happen to be the kind of guy who can't get it right even with modern aids. Of course I don't know exactly how they managed to get off-course, but it's pretty likely they weren't spending any time at all tuning in NDBs and cross-checking position, making sure their compass was correctly set, etc. Maybe going a little too far to expect guys are going to take star/sun shots, but hey the company provides them with an astrocompass in case they feel like it, and I guess it wouldn't have hurt would it? Might have kept them awake. In the case of the crew in question, not necessarily in your case, I think I would be more comfortable declaring traditional methods of navigation obsolete if I was able to correctly use the modern ones. Nobody ever got lost because they knew how to navigate too well for their own good.

I'm pretty sure my point of view is valid, not "mindless".

[thirdtimecharm]

b) First Air is in PR mode until tomorrow's big announcement and the company wants to tie up loose ends quickly?

What is tomorrow's big announcement?

"We are not for sale"

[Gino Under]

The crew was fired.
Disappointing outcome I'd say.

Gino