Canadian housing Prices / Wages

[GhostRider6]

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5216258

I realize this isn’t aviation related (directly). However, I can’t help but wonder when the breaking point will come where people literally won’t be able to afford wages offered by employers within the Canadian Aviation Industry.
Or, alternatively people take a stand against contracts which don’t even take into account inflation.

By the sounds of it, this does not take into account kids, medical issues, unforeseen expenses either.

[AirFrame]

And it's not just aviation.

[jakeandelwood]

While I do agree, things cost way more compared to wages than they used to cost, especially housing, people also want to live much more extravagant lifestyles now. 2 new cars in the driveway with all the useless gadgets, big travel trailer, boat, all on payment plans of course. That 1000 sq' bungalow just won't do anymore, must have a 3500 sq' house with 2 ovens, (I actually saw that in someone's house, what the hell for?) Expensive clothes for their toddlers, expensive vacations every year. I know everyone isn't like that but I think the vast majority in North America are, and it's all on credit.

[LegoMan]

I left the industry 10 years ago and maybe thats the only reason I can afford my own home today. We'll see how it goes when I get back in. But yea, it's not just aviation, wages are stagnant almost everywhere.

[RRJetPilot]

While I do agree, things cost way more compared to wages than they used to cost, especially housing, people also want to live much more extravagant lifestyles now. 2 new cars in the driveway with all the useless gadgets, big travel trailer, boat, all on payment plans of course. That 1000 sq' bungalow just won't do anymore, must have a 3500 sq' house with 2 ovens, (I actually saw that in someone's house, what the hell for?) Expensive clothes for their toddlers, expensive vacations every year. I know everyone isn't like that but I think the vast majority in North America are, and it's all on credit.

Well i know many pilots in their 30's and early 40's, and none of them have what you describe. The ones in their 30's are not saving anything and at most have a one bedroom apartment. Its looking quite bleak for my generation. But keep telling yourself we live extravagant lifestyles

[digits_]

The extravagant description with overextending debt is something i mostly notice with 35-45 year olds, not so much people just starting out.

[GhostRider6]

And it's not just aviation.

I agree 100%....

[iflyforpie]

[jakeandelwood]

While I do agree, things cost way more compared to wages than they used to cost, especially housing, people also want to live much more extravagant lifestyles now. 2 new cars in the driveway with all the useless gadgets, big travel trailer, boat, all on payment plans of course. That 1000 sq' bungalow just won't do anymore, must have a 3500 sq' house with 2 ovens, (I actually saw that in someone's house, what the hell for?) Expensive clothes for their toddlers, expensive vacations every year. I know everyone isn't like that but I think the vast majority in North America are, and it's all on credit.

Well i know many pilots in their 30's and early 40's, and none of them have what you describe. The ones in their 30's are not saving anything and at most have a one bedroom apartment. Its looking quite bleak for my generation. But keep telling yourself we live extravagant lifestyles

They are out there, I know one, not a pilot, but he rents a one bedroom basement suite, saves nothing, has nothing, but he has a nice 2019 Ram, fully loaded with a new quad in the back and a nice new 30' travel trailer behind it all. His vehicle payments are more than my mortgage payment, we all have are priorities.

[rookiepilot]

While I do agree, things cost way more compared to wages than they used to cost, especially housing, people also want to live much more extravagant lifestyles now. 2 new cars in the driveway with all the useless gadgets, big travel trailer, boat, all on payment plans of course. That 1000 sq' bungalow just won't do anymore, must have a 3500 sq' house with 2 ovens, (I actually saw that in someone's house, what the hell for?) Expensive clothes for their toddlers, expensive vacations every year. I know everyone isn't like that but I think the vast majority in North America are, and it's all on credit.

Well i know many pilots in their 30's and early 40's, and none of them have what you describe. The ones in their 30's are not saving anything and at most have a one bedroom apartment. Its looking quite bleak for my generation. But keep telling yourself we live extravagant lifestyles

They are out there, I know one, not a pilot, but he rents a one bedroom basement suite, saves nothing, has nothing, but he has a nice 2019 Ram, fully loaded with a new quad in the back and a nice new 30' travel trailer behind it all. His vehicle payments are more than my mortgage payment, we all have are priorities.

Trucks, cars, boats, planes, quads, trailers. All on credit.

I was financially free before the age of 40, and that's with absolutely NOTHING given to me. The sole help of any kind I was given by family, at any age, was a $10,000 inheritance. We can only control what's in our control. Whining does little good.

Partly that was hard work in business, the more important, boring story is living below our means. After one (dumb) new car purchase as a young man, between my wife and I we have purchased exactly 2 new vehicles in our lifetimes. Both for cash, both practical minivans. Every other car used, including my Bimmer.

Used, Used, Used. Pay cash, or don't get it. Learn to invest. Build equity, get out of consumer debt.

Rich don't get richer through luck, as Justin Fair-Haired would tell you. They don't overpay. Period. They are more patient and disciplined. Many of them are holding loads of cash now. Waiting.

When the economy crashes again, Planes, Boats, cottages, stocks, everything will be on sale.

Now everyone will laugh at or ignore this post, go ahead. I get it. Everyone knows more. Everyone is smarter.

I got it for dissing the cannabis stocks, supposedly the blue chip investment of the decade.

How's that working out?

https://www.google.com/search?q=canntrust+stock

Anyway.....You do you.

[Mach1]

I have not met anyone who started at 15K a year. I do agree that most benefited from retirements and were able to quickly move into the highest paying jobs that exist and have sat there ever since.... occupying the top paying jobs for longer and preventing any upward movement for the generations that followed. Things were cheap to buy and wages were reasonable compared to today.

I don't know anyone who's parents or siblings bought a house at 22 years old. Not one single person. I know it happens (to this day) but it is and was far from the norm. One had to save up a 20% down-payment to buy a house. Granted a less insurmountable number than it is today but, did you ever think that the removal of that barrier has had the consequence of driving house prices to today's unsustainable highs?

It's always nice to blame someone else for our problems but it's far more complicated that that. For instance, no one has received a wage raise since 1980 except the executive class (who are up well over 600%) while inflation has marched onward undisturbed. Most of the executives are under 40 because there's a fair amount of age discrimination in the world these days. Is it their age? I would submit it is the rise of the sociopath executive who has rigged the game so only other sociopaths can rise to the top. Who let that happen? I don't know. But, it is the case that you can't have a lot of empathy when you lay off thousands and cut yourself a bonus cheque for doing it.

I'm in the generation that was screwed the hardest by the Boomers, and I'll get screwed (currently am) by the Boomer's kids. I have a lot to be bitter about but I see that we are all part of the problem. All of us. We all play our part in the economy and the society. Rather than blame, work towards making it better and understand that everyone has their own troubles. Those Boomers you hate are currently pampering the shit out of their kids and supporting them financially and emotionally in ways no other generation has ever seen. If you don't like the game... pick a different game to play. Petition to change the rules. Stop supporting the current regime. But enough with blaming. Yes, they had it good... and no one else is likely to ever hit that high again. That's life. Make the best of yours and stop comparing yourself to others or you will never be happy. There will always be someone who had it better than you.

[7ECA]

Just the other day, a study of sorts was released. According to the data, if one is to live in Vancouver and works at a minimum wage job they need to work a minimum of 100 hours a week to make rent. That's just making rent, not saving, not getting ahead, not home ownership - just RENT.

Nothing ass-backwards about it. Pull y'er self up by the bootstraps, right there Rookie?

[rookiepilot]

Just the other day, a study of sorts was released. According to the data, if one is to live in Vancouver and works at a minimum wage job they need to work a minimum of 100 hours a week to make rent. That's just making rent, not saving, not getting ahead, not home ownership - just RENT.

Nothing ass-backwards about it. Pull y'er self up by the bootstraps, right there Rookie?

You must love the CBC and the NDP, 7ECA.

Nothing is anyone's fault. No one has to show personal responsibility for any of their own decisions.

Life is full of choices. Move to Prince Rupert. Fort St John. Regina. Or many other alternatives. Get a roommate.

You simply don't have the right to rent a nice place in one of the most expensive cities in the world, working at minimum wage.

When I lived in Vancouver, for years I lived in a dump of an illegal, dark, mouldy basement suite.

It was cheap, and all I could afford. Been there and done that.

[digits_]

So if you can't afford housing you have to live in an illegal basement suite? That's your solution?

[ant_321]

So if you can't afford housing you have to live in an illegal basement suite? That's your solution?

Or just move? I would love to live in Vancouver. I can’t afford it so I don’t.

[rookiepilot]

So if you can't afford housing you have to live in an illegal basement suite? That's your solution?

I did what I had to do at the time, and worked extremely hard so I didn't have to stay in that basement dungeon. Life is made up of choices.

What's your solution digits? What should have I done differently? I was making minimum wage, at the time.

[digits_]

So if you can't afford housing you have to live in an illegal basement suite? That's your solution?

I did what I had to do at the time, and worked extremely hard so I didn't have to stay in that basement dungeon. Life is made up of choices.

What's your solution digits? What should have I done differently? I was making minimum wage, at the time.

Well, you yourself said:

You simply don't have the right to rent a nice place in one of the most expensive cities in the world, working at minimum wage.

People don't have the right to live in expensive cities on minimum wage, but you do, because you did it illegally?

You can't defend a system if you have to do illegal acts in order to get ahead in that system.

So if you can't afford housing you have to live in an illegal basement suite? That's your solution?

Or just move? I would love to live in Vancouver. I can’t afford it so I don’t.

Yup. That would actually solve the problem. If people move, eventually wages would have to go up or housing prices would need to come down.

[rookiepilot]

All suites were illegal at that time, but there were thousands of them. They are now legal, I believe in most municipalities.

I didn't say I had the right to anything. That's the point. And you, or I, aren't going to change vancouver housing prices. They will correct, perhaps, as no one can afford to live there, and they cut off the dirty money, but it takes time.

The point is instead of whining, make choices that work. I chose to live cheap, so I didn't have to rack up debt I'd never be free of. I could have moved, but at age 19 wasn't ready to do that.

Where were you living at 19?

Is your solution is live off credit cards, buy the new Ram pickup for 80 K and then whine to the CBC how you're getting screwed?

[Mach1]

https://youtu.be/xDE_w7mqxcI

[digits_]

The point is instead of whining, make choices that work. I chose to live cheap, so I didn't have to rack up debt I'd never be free of. I could have moved, but at age 19 wasn't ready to do that.

My point is that living somewhere illegal is not a choice that works. Living cheap, sure. Living in an old tiny room, yes, absolutely, save money. But using the fact that you lived in an illegal suite as an example on how to save money? That's not right.

If you are advocating illegal options to save money, you might as well tell people to rob a bank. And then claim that people who complain about bank robbers should just rob banks themselves.

By living in an illegal suite, you are keeping the system in place. There is no incentive for the owner of the illegal suite to get everything done legally and fix up his property, as there are still people lining up to rent his piece of junk room. If you were to say no, and thus might have to move, the employer that gave you your minimum wage job, might have had to pay more to keep/attract people, which in turn could have helped you to afford a legal small suite.

Turning down crappy conditions is what improves conditions in general. Sucking it up is what prevents crappy conditions from improving.

The "suck it up"-crowd should not blame or look down on the "turn it down" crowd for making said choices when the latter is trying to raise awareness to get something changed.

I also don't blame the "suck it up" crowd (including you in your example) for making those choices, but there is a difference between not blaming someone and actively promoting the lifestyle as the solution to the problems that created the sucky conditions in the first place. It's not a solution.

[rookiepilot]

Another thought on housing:

Blame rent control. Yeah really. Blame the government.

Why would anyone build rental housing when they can't ever raise prices?

Since they brought it in over here -- several big rental projects -- cancelled.

Rent control always makes it worse. Every time.

The free market works.

[digits_]

Another thought on housing:

Blame rent control. Yeah really. Blame the government.

Why would anyone build rental housing when they can't ever raise prices?

Since they brought it in over here -- several big rental projects -- cancelled.

Rent control always makes it worse. Every time.

The free market works.

I agree with you on that one. It might work as a short term solution for people currently renting to save money, but it does prevent other rental projects from being built and thus closes the rental market to new renters, unless someone leaves the rental market. In a growing population, it screws people over.

[mmm..bacon]

Yup. That would actually solve the problem. If people move, eventually wages would have to go up or housing prices would need to come down.

Ain't gonna happen in Vancouver. It's seen as being a nice place to live, internationally; air and water are clean, politics are stable, crime is negligible, etc...those things will continue to keep housing prices elevated. Perhaps not to the extent that they were in 2016, but I don't see SFH in the inner munis going below $1M any time...
As for wages (in an aviation context) going up - well, Jazz and WJE have proved that there's a huge supply of millennials ready to take it dry, and live in poverty in basements in order to get a chance to go to the big bux at mainline..

[altiplano]

I remember in the good old days in Vancouver, my grow op in the spare room subsidized my low wage and high cost of living...

After 9/11 when prices went down it got a little harder, but I adjusted, although eventually opportunity took me off the coast...

I can only imagine now, with cheap and legal marijuana, the challenges of supporting yourself on an entry level job and salary... get a roommate? that only covers half the rent... and you have to put up with them... nothing like a grow op! Quiet and lots of fresh air from all those plants... didn't need to turn the heat on in the winter either. Those were the days...

[rookiepilot]

Another thought on housing:

Blame rent control. Yeah really. Blame the government.

Why would anyone build rental housing when they can't ever raise prices?

Since they brought it in over here -- several big rental projects -- cancelled.

Rent control always makes it worse. Every time.

The free market works.

I agree with you on that one. It might work as a short term solution for people currently renting to save money, but it does prevent other rental projects from being built and thus closes the rental market to new renters, unless someone leaves the rental market. In a growing population, it screws people over.

I find people are complete hypocrites on housing.

They all want cheaper houinsg, but only until they themselves get in to the market.

Then everyone turns 180 and they love rent control, they are against higher density, higher condo buildings, against tighter mortgage regulations, all of which when allowed, would moderate prices. They are same group they squeals on their neighbors, and fight allowing legal basement suites.

Why? Cause everyone's house is now their RETIREMENT plan, and housing going up in value is their guaranteed RIGHT.

No, it isn't.

High rises in YYZ and YVR should be jammed together, and upwards of 80 - 100 stories each. Build em' and jam in the transit lines. Change the zoning regs. Densify, densify.

Wreck your long established view of the north shore mountains? Tough! Views aren't a right.