Minimum rest in the 703 world

[BaldChewbacca]

For pilots working on reserve the minimum rest requirements and max duty days are set out in the CARs. However the company I work for loves to blur those lines.

We have a 15 hour duty day. Let's say you land and go home after 8 hours. The company has in the past called pilots 4 hours later for a 3 hour flight. On its own that's fine. However they've also called pilots in at the 18 hour mark (10 hours after leaving work) because they've given the minimum 10 hours rest. However you never truly know when you're on rest is this case unless they specifically tell you about a flight more than 10 hours in the future.

Is there anything in the CARs against this? The problem to me is that they double dip into both the 15 hour duty time and 10 hour rest and choose which suits them.

Any insight would be much appreciated

[goingnowherefast]

The CARs are kinda blurry in terms of rest. The "opportunity to obtain 8 hours sleep". The rest extensions (15 hr days, split days, unforeseen, positioning) are on top of this poorly worded "opportunity for 8 hours sleep". Is 10 hours off enough time to get 8 hours sleep? Is 10 hours off enough to get that extra rest? Skip the shit, shave and shower acceptable for that extra hour rest? Then is 9 hours off enough if we skip the shit, shave and shower?

Skummy 703s are not fun to work for. Can't wait for the new regs to come to 703/704 side of things. The damn implementation time line isn't cool.

[digits_]

Time for a new job...

In 3 years that won't be allowed anymore (hopefully). For now, the only thing that could potentially save you is your COM. Is there anything in there?

I don't think any pilot believes that crap is legal, yet TC and companies seem to agree it is.

You can move up to a "good" 703/704 operator. There you will get 10 hours of rest while living an hour away from your base. Quality sleep!

[valleyboy]

Off duty is off duty when it comes to fulfilling crew rest periods. - I always shut off all means of interruption until my legal duty period started again. Ten hours can work away from home but home base 12 hours free of duty should be the norm. I have been approached by crew sked for a short turn at home and it always cost them a hotel room close to the airport if they wanted a 10 hr turn.

[digits_]

Right. So when do you switch off your phone if your duty starts at 8:00 and your last flight of the day lands at 14:00?

[flyinhigh]

First, in which province are you working??

Although the way the CARs are written makes it blurry and operators do this, there has been a precedence set in Manitoba that TC (Prairie region) has actually stopped this practice as it is certainly NOT the way it was meant to be used.

Avcanada is not the spot that this will get solved, so maybe a phone call to the local office is in order to ask these questions.

For pilots working on reserve the minimum rest requirements and max duty days are set out in the CARs. However the company I work for loves to blur those lines.

We have a 15 hour duty day. Let's say you land and go home after 8 hours. The company has in the past called pilots 4 hours later for a 3 hour flight. On its own that's fine. However they've also called pilots in at the 18 hour mark (10 hours after leaving work) because they've given the minimum 10 hours rest. However you never truly know when you're on rest is this case unless they specifically tell you about a flight more than 10 hours in the future.

Is there anything in the CARs against this? The problem to me is that they double dip into both the 15 hour duty time and 10 hour rest and choose which suits them.

Any insight would be much appreciated

[digits_]

First, in which province are you working??

Although the way the CARs are written makes it blurry and operators do this, there has been a precedence set in Manitoba that TC (Prairie region) has actually stopped this practice as it is certainly NOT the way it was meant to be used.

Avcanada is not the spot that this will get solved, so maybe a phone call to the local office is in order to ask these questions.

For pilots working on reserve the minimum rest requirements and max duty days are set out in the CARs. However the company I work for loves to blur those lines.

We have a 15 hour duty day. Let's say you land and go home after 8 hours. The company has in the past called pilots 4 hours later for a 3 hour flight. On its own that's fine. However they've also called pilots in at the 18 hour mark (10 hours after leaving work) because they've given the minimum 10 hours rest. However you never truly know when you're on rest is this case unless they specifically tell you about a flight more than 10 hours in the future.

Is there anything in the CARs against this? The problem to me is that they double dip into both the 15 hour duty time and 10 hour rest and choose which suits them.

Any insight would be much appreciated

Is there any somewhat official document available somewhere about this precedence?

[flyinhigh]

Is there any somewhat official document available somewhere about this precedence?

Not that I am aware of, I just know which company got their tilly whapped for this and had to stop. This was back in about 2015-16.

If a call was put into prairie region, I am sure you would get their answer.

[rigpiggy]

I am fairly sure I worked at said company. I had asked TC for clarification with a very similar scenario. There rsponse was a copy of the FDTL regs highlighted " clear as mud

[valleyboy]

Right. So when do you switch off your phone if your duty starts at 8:00 and your last flight of the day lands at 14:00

My smart F phone is smart. I set it to come on at end of rest period. You question lacks a lot of information. Are you saying duty ended at 14:15 and I am not scheduled to fly and will be on reserve after a crew rest or do I have a scheduled departure the next day. Regardless you are expected to answer a phone after your "protected" time off duty. I know crew schedulers and bosses for smaller carriers don't seem to have the ability to do the math but you need to communicate and what I usually did was to simply advise all the powers when I was ready for duty again. Why is this so difficult. I turn my phone off and unplug the land line and in some fancy hotels even pull the plug on TV sets since they also come on automatically, because in my experience a brain fart has caused the phone call. Playing the interrupted rest card is always very unpopular. Get your rest because tired pilots are stupid mistake prone. That's advice from a been there done that grey haired gentleman

[digits_]

That is the whole point. You are not scheduled for anything after 1400, but if a trip comes up at 1600 you are expected to do it, if a trip comes up at 0100 you are also expected to do it. You are on reserve but also on rest. When do you switch off your phone?

It is easy to make blanket statements about how it should be, but that doesn't help the topic starter.

[GoinVertical]

If you're feeling ballsy, ask them "When does my rest period start?".

If they don't say "now" then sit around base until your duty day is finished, then go home and leave your phone off until your rest period is finished.

Alternatively, SMS it on the grounds that in order to achieve adequate rest, crews need to know when their rest period will begin and end in order to turn off their phones, as to ensure that their rest is not interrupted.

[valleyboy]

It's simply about communications, either they release you or they don't. Ask the questions simply don't sit around and complain. If you are shit scared of rocking the boat just ask yourself if you have an incident where do you stand then, likely in a very lonesome space and kicking stones.

[altiplano]

Lots of good ideas in above 2 posts.

Make them tell you if you're released or still on call.

If the operator isn't prepared to tell you when you're rest period is, then you tell them when you're taking it. It's your responsibility as much as it is the operator's to ensure you meet CARs crew rest, if they aren't holding up their end, then you do it.

They can't have their cake and eat it too.

However it ends up defined, when your rest period starts, turn off your phone.

I would consider recording the calls about when rest periods start. Put that in your back pocket if required at a later point.

[valleyboy]

Of course the elephant in the room here is the reference to 15 hour duty days. Most 703 operators find out that it's not worth the effort to track when and when it can't be used. They are reluctant to credit and add the extra hour to you rest. It can also be argued that going to the 15 hours needs the agreement of the pilot to do so. Most 703 operators interpret the reg incorrectly and usually get their feet held to the fire after an audit but we all know those are few.

[OldTracker]

I am fairly sure I worked at said company. I had asked TC for clarification with a very similar scenario. There rsponse was a copy of the FDTL regs highlighted " clear as mud

All to often we see this kind of response from an inquiry to gov't agencies. Even if you tell the person you are asking that you have seen the reg, they will copy and paste the reg as an answer to you query. After receiving such a "lazy" response, I will reply and ask for the dept's head e-mail address, (their supervisor) to ask the same question again. Sometimes I get a more thorough answer sometimes not.

[oldncold]

one assumes that op is medivac. well you are sol for new incoming cars 703 ( phasing in 36 months )duty time rules. as they gave medivac ops a pass for. 2 reason cost to. operators and 2 cost passed to govt. o current rules will continue to apply

your only recourse is to state unfit to fly due to fatigue. document the shifting clock for the past week. do this politely! and remind your handlers ie dispatch or ops. of the. their legal Co liability of pressuring crews to fly well beond

[oldncold]

since you fly as a crew and crm is where it's at have a toolbox meeting. get a consensus. say we have been flying literally around the clock. and need a solid 12 hours to reset for safety . most ops will work with the crew. the ones that won't usually have

[oldncold]

can't see the forest thru the trees mentality. and the revolving door of good pilot leaving. puts even more pressure on the remaining crews to complete. most companies a/c. Have approved Mel list if your ops is unflexible then if you have something that is broken and not Mel able. presto your airplane is now not flyable and generally not a smart plan to fly it back base.

[oldncold]

the team concept works both ways. they want max effort then mgt they provide you with top notch machines. they work with you to maximize your capability which is includes proper and sufficient resto provide top notch service to the

[fish4life]

I’ve seen a letter from an inspector saying 10-11 hours at a rest facility and this assumes you are not still on call.

[HiFlyChick]

For people who talk about needing 12 hours off to get 8 hours of sleep, I would like to point out that not everyone lives/works where you do. I live 10 minutes from the hangar - literally. Yup, closer than most hotels (when you factor in waiting for the shuttle). I get that the regs are designed to make everyone everywhere safe, but frankly, a 12 hr rest period is total overkill in some regions/cases.

I like the idea of the poster who said to explicitly ask the company to state when their rest period starts. One problem with the current regs is having the duty day end when the engines stop instead of when you leave the airport. I could never understand why the start is defined as when you arrive, but the end not being when you leave. There would need to be a provision that someone who has exceeded their duty day doing ground duties doesn't actually count as exceeding duty day (for the purposes of punishment), but it could count towards total time on duty by extending the length of rest, or something similar. If the start of duty day can be recorded officially, even though not written in the journey log, why not record the end in a similar manner rather than simply saying it's when the engines stop? I am amazed that TC will look at a Navajo driver in a Canadian winter with no hangar option and actually accept that the duty day ended when the engines stopped. It's certainly taken me hours when I was by myself in a really strong wind to put full wing, tail and engine covers on and plug in the engines, and that doesn't even count having to wait for fueling before you start because you have to taxi from the pump to parking. Granted, I'm very slow, but still....

[digits_]

Your duty day ends when engines shut down, but your rest doesn't start until you leave the airport. The idea most likely being that yoy don't endanger pax by putting on engine tents past 15 hours.

[valleyboy]

medivac companies have been double dipping for ever. Using one crew when 2 crew makes more sense operationally but pressuring a single crew to cover. They take advantage of the egos and invincibility of youth. Today's pilot is starting to *get it* - fatigue is dangerous and operators dislike this.

[digits_]

For people who talk about needing 12 hours off to get 8 hours of sleep, I would like to point out that not everyone lives/works where you do. I live 10 minutes from the hangar - literally. Yup, closer than most hotels (when you factor in waiting for the shuttle). I get that the regs are designed to make everyone everywhere safe, but frankly, a 12 hr rest period is total overkill in some regions/cases.

Does everyone at your company live within 10 minutes? Is it a condition of your employment that you live within 10 minutes?

The rules have to accomodate all your pilots, including the pilots living furthest away from the company. If the company wishes to base their rest on a 10 minute commute, they have to enforce that rule with all their pilots. My guess is, they will not have many pilots left if they were to actually do that. So increase the rest appropriately to match the actual situation.

Living an hour away from the airport is not uncommon.