School Choice?

[PilotY]

Hi everyone.

Currently a Grade 12 HS student who's close to PPL flight test. I have applied to several schools for aviation as I wish to become a commercial pilot.

Have offers from Confed, Sault, Seneca, and Waterloo.

Waiting on responses (either acceptance or declination) from Algonquin, Western, and I also applied to Brampton Flight Colleges 2 year Integrated ATPL program.

My dilemma is picking a school. I want to fly right away. Fly always, and get working ASAP. Here's a brief overview from each school from my perspective.

CONFED - Quick, but no multi IFR.
SAULT - Many, many complaints of issues with flight training being inconsistent, poor instruction, kids not finishing, being YEARS behind (if I could hear some more responses about these claims that would be great). No flying first 2 seems
SENECA - Older pilots tell me they don't like flying with Seneca grads, but like does that matter? No flying first 2 seems, but work term looks like it would look good on resumes. Academically intense, and Im pretty fed up with U Level HS courses. 4 years.
WATERLOO - Science degree, but 4 years, no flying first 2 seems, 180,000$ so yikes.
ALGONQUIN - Quick, and Instructor Rating, (Plus I think IATRA). Cost is OK cause college is cheaper than UNI
WESTERN - Who knows.

BRAMPTON - Looks really enticing cause you're always flying, 2 years, CPL MULTI IFR, IATRA + ATPL (frozen obv). But some people are telling me that I won't get hired cause I didn't go to an actual college. Although BFC is recognized by JAZZ pathways, is this mentality of "oh well it wasn't a college" still present at AC, or even in the smaller companies like 703/704 Thats what scares me.

Based on reports from AV CAN and other sources, I don't know if I trust the Government paying for my education, it seems that this is leading to several problems.

Thanks for your time, your thoughts and input are greatly appreciated.

[doplemosh]

I went to the program at Western, and have met a few people from the other courses.

Pros for UWO:
- You get an aviation business management degree
- Relatively new aircraft, with factory maintenance on the field
- CYXU is in a Control Zone 'C', so you dont need to worry about other people cutting you off in the circuit, or poor pilotage going unchecked.
- Group 1 IFR
- Jazz APP parter school

Cons for UWO:
- You need to put in the academic work to get an aviation business management degree
- No flying for the first 2 semesters
- The staff at the flight centre at stretched rather thin, extra bookings are hard to get due to scheduling
- No IATRA or Frozen ATPL
- Your PPL wont be fully recognized, as the program is an intergrated-CPL course, where all the training must be done at one flight school. You will only get 30 credit hours for your PPL.

The biggest draw for UWO is the degree, really. Go for it if you're the academic type and want to further your education in commercial aviation. If you'd rather go straight to flying, id say that one of the colleges or flight-college ATPL programs might be more suitable.

If it helps, most of the schools you listed have the same Jazz Pathways affiliation that Brampton has. Some schools send a few students, some send a lot - it depends on their relationship with Jazz. From a graduating flight class of 12 in 2019, Western sent 6 pilots, and 5 of them got in. (I'm the idiot who didn't)

Heres a list of all the schools in the JazzAPP program.https://flyjazz.ca/wp-content/uploads/2 ... DEC-19.jpg

[rudder]

Go to Con. 20 months and you are done. Much cheaper than all of the other alternatives.

You may want to check about the multi-IFR. Looks like they have been sending grads down to Waterloo to get that training completed at school expense.

[PilotY]

Hey man, I'm also grade 12, though I plan on taking a gap year to work and save up money and potentially retake any courses I need to.

Just curious, what are your grades like? I've found it hard to find on the schools' official websites what the required average is. I'm usually a mid-80s student and I was wondering if that would be enough to get in.

My grade rn in HS are pretty high. Well. At least the first set was. Adv Function, English, GEO, Welding left me with a 96. But I got Phys Calc Chem rn and I work 30 hrs a week, so we aint doing much HW to say the least. Im tryna make that change though.

[PilotY]

Go to Con. 20 months and you are done. Much cheaper than all of the other alternatives.

You may want to check about the multi-IFR. Looks like they have been sending grads down to Waterloo to get that training completed at school expense.

Heres a link to the courses section on Confederations page. https://www.confederationcollege.ca/pro ... nt/courses

They used to only offer GIII IFR, but on the bottom it says that course was discontinued for the 2019 intake.

[PilotY]

I went to the program at Western, and have met a few people from the other courses.

Pros for UWO:
- You get an aviation business management degree
- Relatively new aircraft, with factory maintenance on the field
- CYXU is in a Control Zone 'C', so you dont need to worry about other people cutting you off in the circuit, or poor pilotage going unchecked.
- Group 1 IFR
- Jazz APP parter school

Cons for UWO:
- You need to put in the academic work to get an aviation business management degree
- No flying for the first 2 semesters
- The staff at the flight centre at stretched rather thin, extra bookings are hard to get due to scheduling
- No IATRA or Frozen ATPL
- Your PPL wont be fully recognized, as the program is an intergrated-CPL course, where all the training must be done at one flight school. You will only get 30 credit hours for your PPL.

The biggest draw for UWO is the degree, really. Go for it if you're the academic type and want to further your education in commercial aviation. If you'd rather go straight to flying, id say that one of the colleges or flight-college ATPL programs might be more suitable.

If it helps, most of the schools you listed have the same Jazz Pathways affiliation that Brampton has. Some schools send a few students, some send a lot - it depends on their relationship with Jazz. From a graduating flight class of 12 in 2019, Western sent 6 pilots, and 5 of them got in. (I'm the idiot who didn't)

Heres a list of all the schools in the JazzAPP program.https://flyjazz.ca/wp-content/uploads/2 ... DEC-19.jpg

Some good points you've raised for sure. Yeah there are a whole bunch of schools that are affiliated with Jazz. Not entirely sure I want to go there right away, cause I'm tempted to work in other environments for a while to see different kinds of aviation. Depends, maybe people can tell me wether this is a good idea or not lol.

The one thing I have considered doing however, is to get all the licenses done at a school like BFC as quickly as I could, and then from there in the future, maybe participate in an online degree program with say Lakehead or something.

[Bede]

These days, Con College, hands down.

You're done and working in the industry getting hours/seniority 2 years before the guys from UW, UWO, Seneca etc even have a CPL. If you want a full degree do it on the side as you're building experience.

[PilotY]

These days, Con College, hands down.

You're done and working in the industry getting hours/seniority 2 years before the guys from UW, UWO, Seneca etc even have a CPL. If you want a full degree do it on the side as you're building experience.

https://www.bramptonflightcentre.com/ca ... pl/2676-2/

I’ve linked the BFC program above. Perhaps some people can give me their input as to what they think about it.

I am tempted to go this route. Same time frame as Confed etc. But of course I need to be accepted first lol. Confeds only got CPL, and from what I’ve heard it’s because they couldn’t finish people when they were doing everything, and as a result they dropped the multi IFR so they could continue the same amount of enrolment. But I cannot confirm any of this (although recently I became aware of a friend of mine who dropped his Sault acceptance because his friends who were there while he was on gap year said they only flew once a month).

Very complicated isn’t it lol. Right now to me, though, it seems that the subsidized schools have problems which I would rather not deal with.

Thanks for all the input guys.

[Pilotdaddy]

Have you considered maybe another path working with a flight school at your own pace, while simultaneously going to college/university for a degree not related to aviation? I think it's a good idea to have a plan B in case a career in aviation doesn't work out or, god forbid, you lose your medical before retiring.

Does the iATPL program through BFC get you a degree? I didn't think it did. The cost is say $90k all in? You can probably spend the same amount doing flight school independently and then paying for (govt subsidized) college/university parallel to flight training and you'd come out more marketable to AC, if that's your goal, but more importantly, it gives you a backup plan if this line of work doesn't work out.

[PilotY]

Have you considered maybe another path working with a flight school at your own pace, while simultaneously going to college/university for a degree not related to aviation? I think it's a good idea to have a plan B in case a career in aviation doesn't work out or, god forbid, you lose your medical before retiring.

Does the iATPL program through BFC get you a degree? I didn't think it did. The cost is say $90k all in? You can probably spend the same amount doing flight school independently and then paying for (govt subsidized) college/university parallel to flight training and you'd come out more marketable to AC, if that's your goal, but more importantly, it gives you a backup plan if this line of work doesn't work out.

I’m pretty dead set on being a pilot at this point. I’ve been flying for a while now. Close to PPL flight test. So I know I’m going for it. I’ve been thinking about doing something online with Lakehead U perhaps in the field of business once I’m working.

BFC program gives you a Vocational College Diploma. Now if I top a UNI business degree in top of that later in life, I’m not too concerned about whether to get a college diploma at Confed vs BFC. Unless this is something I should be worried about lol. The other thing that has been mentioned to me in the past by some current airliner pilots is that their companies prefer candidates who completed their flight training through an actual structured school program such as the Integrated ATPL/Confed Sault program, rather than a pilot who did everything self paced. Idk why this is the case. But it makes me leary about doing it all on my own time.

One thing I know for sure. I want to get into the industry ASAP. I’d prefer to be working by the age of 20 at the most. So I’m fully dedicated to putting all my time towards flight training now, and then learning unrelated fields later.

Is this a viable strategy? Or am I dreaming in technicolor?

[Pilotdaddy]

There's no right vs wrong way per se, otherwise, everyone will be doing their training via that one perfect method.

Although, I'm just a student pilot myself so take what I told you with a grain of salt. I was simply putting up an option that may or may not be suitable for you. Best of luck!

[Rubby]

Heads up people wanting to go to confed ! If you couldn’t do solo within 17 hours completed in 6 months you would be kicked out in your end of second semester. This is from experience

[digits_]

The other thing that has been mentioned to me in the past by some current airliner pilots is that their companies prefer candidates who completed their flight training through an actual structured school program such as the Integrated ATPL/Confed Sault program, rather than a pilot who did everything self paced. Idk why this is the case. But it makes me leary about doing it all on my own time.

That might have been the case many years ago, at the moment nobody cares. Some airlines care about having a degree, nobody cares if you did it integrated or modular. While your motivation level to get an extra degree later might be a bit lower, it is more important to get your licenses asap.

Go fly. You can even change schools for different ratings. Eg do your multi stuff at a school with a cheap multi rate, and your CPL at a school that can sign you of quickly etc. Time building can be done wherever and whenever. If you really want to speed things up and you have trouble renting at one place, get checked out at different places. Don't waste time with aviation degrees. This hiring frenzy won't last forever.

[Dronepiper]

Confed is the obvious choice.

10k for 20 months (plus living expenses)

People seem to forget that you can do a full multi ifr in 3-4 weeks.

So if you do it right after confed you will be done everything in 21 months.

Confed has you write the INRAT even though they have stopped the Group 3 flying. You still do a fair amount of sim also. It shouldn’t take long at all to do a quick multi ifr after you graduate.

Anyone who thinks paying 180k for western university is &$36ed in the head!

I went to Confed. I started working for a major, 4 years after graduation.

[Dronepiper]

Confed is the obvious choice.

10k for 20 months (plus living expenses)

People seem to forget that you can do a full multi ifr in 3-4 weeks.

So if you do it right after confed you will be done everything in 21 months.

Confed has you write the INRAT even though they have stopped the Group 3 flying. You still do a fair amount of sim also. It shouldn’t take long at all to do a quick multi ifr after you graduate.

Anyone who thinks paying 180k for western university is &$36ed in the head!

I went to Confed. I started working for a major, 4 years after graduation.

[PilotY]

Heads up people wanting to go to confed ! If you couldn’t do solo within 17 hours completed in 6 months you would be kicked out in your end of second semester. This is from experience

That’s news to me. Umm. Do you mean like. 6 months or 17 hours whichever comes first? I’m guessing it’s just like a filtering out process. But I imagine if that’s the case than like they should be flying kids quite frequently in the early phases of training.

[Jetking]

Heads up people wanting to go to confed ! If you couldn’t do solo within 17 hours completed in 6 months you would be kicked out in your end of second semester. This is from experience

That’s news to me. Umm. Do you mean like. 6 months or 17 hours whichever comes first? I’m guessing it’s just like a filtering out process. But I imagine if that’s the case than like they should be flying kids quite frequently in the early phases of training.

Damn right! I think some students can only fly around 17 hours for first 6-7 months due to instructors changes, weather and lots other cancellations. Lots people passed first toughest ground school semester so not enough planes to train everyone and That’s one way to to cultivate students out so smarter kids can have more availability for the planes

[fathockeycat]

So my daughter is facing the same decision but for the 2021 school year. Where did you finally end up, and do you have any advice for someone one year behind you?

[Heavy Rayn]

A program that is often forgotten as well is the relatively new University of Windsor program. Flying begins on literally day 1 of the program with a short intro flight. The flight training component leaves you with a multi IFR and even a chance at an instructor rating scholarship, all for around 70k in flight fees as opposed to 90k for BFC and the university tuition is far less than Western and UWO. Living is less expensive in windsor. Looks like a modern fleet as well. They seem to hire a ton of grads from the program as instructors so potential to get the first (and hardest to get) job lined up right out of school as well.

[EGW]

I’m a second year confed student, PM me for some more information

[PilotY]

Hi all,

First I'd like to thank all the responses I got from people. It was very helpful to hear all your great input. As I'm sure you're all aware, the Coronavirus really jumbled up the industry and resulted in a lot of changes that ultimately affected my decision greatly. With that being said, I'm pretty happy with where I ended up. I have taken the career college route, for anyone who is interested in knowing, and I believe I got lucky with that. Several of my other high school students were sadly forced out of any education at all this year, as Seneca, Confed, and Sault all elected to turn away their intakes prior to program start. A few of my friends transitioned to Waterloo, but it has not turned out as expected. I have rumours that most of the class was given an offer to delay training start to 2022, or perhaps even further, and some say that this will cause a backlog in training at the facility. That being said, I do not attend that school, this is not first hand information, and I will not confirm anything that I have been told. One thing is for sure, the degree path has now become twice as expensive, with opportunity to enter into the subsidized schools being severely hampered. One friend of mine who was accepted last year, got waitlisted by Confederation this year, and will now not be pursuing aviation as a career. There is double the demand to enter these subsidized schools, god only knows how it will turn out.

As for me, In the span of 5 months I have logged over 100 more hours, most of which PIC XC, completed my VFR Nav Progress Ride, and am now working on prep for my CPL flight test. I am happy, and since several of the instructors and pilot buddies I know have actually been able to progress their careers onto planes like King Airs, things are looking up I'd say. For now though, I am just enjoying my time flying.

My recommendation to anyone in high school who is interested in becoming a pilot as a post secondary plan, would be to consider all, and I mean absolutely all available options. From colleges, to self paced, to integrated programs, please please please look at them all. There is no harm in sending out applications, talking to staff, and especially talking to students. It is critical that you take control of your learning experience. Believe it or not, there are new flight schools opening in the province of Ontario, like the one in Hamilton, and they are dying for students to stick in their airplanes. Avoid tunnel vision, keep your wits about you, because there is no denying that flying is fun.

If anyone would like some more detailed information, please feel free to PM me, and I'd be happy to write back. Thank you all for your help, and I hope you are staying safe in this difficult time.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Have you considered maybe another path working with a flight school at your own pace, while simultaneously going to college/university for a degree not related to aviation? I think it's a good idea to have a plan B in case a career in aviation doesn't work out or, god forbid, you lose your medical before retiring.

That's the route I went. I did university in the winter, and my summers were spent working and flying. I already had my PPL before starting university, so after my first year, I did my multi, second summer was CPL, third summer was multi-IFR and instructor.

So, at the end of completing a 4 year degree, I had a Group 1 IFR, CPL and Instructor rating. As I did all the training at the same school and they knew my reputation, they hired me on as an instructor right when I finished university.

This route allowed me to fly at my own pace, take a degree I was interested in and better control my costs.

[cdnpilot77]

Have you considered Conestoga College? If not, you should.

[Kejidog]

Piloty congratulations and good luck. I am impressed with your communication skills and drive to succeed. I think you’ll do well just from your well written posts and attitude.

Does anyone know if there are any schools that take into consideration a student with a PPL already? My son has his ppl through cadets and is looking around for a program. He has applied and accepted to Mt. Allison but they don’t credit a ppl And Mt.A is super expensive.

Some suggestions would be appreciated

[up on one]

My recommendation would be to pursue further flight training through a local flight club and completely avoid the aviation college programs. The reason I say this is strictly return on investment. Take the Air Canada job application for example. An aviation diploma is held on par with any other college diploma meanwhile any university degree will award you more points toward that interview.

Another reason I feel this way is because of diversification. Aviation is very cyclical. The folks who have a non-aviation degree have had greater results finding employment during these times and by the sounds of it a few are choosing not to return to aviation.

Options are great.


A commercial pilots license will guarantee you the same job opportunity as that $80,000 aviation diploma at a fraction of the cost.