College of Professional Pilots
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College of Professional Pilots
I let my membership lapse and when I went to the website I found that nothing new has been posted since 2016. Is the College defunct?
Thanks
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
If we had a CPP we would have had better wages and conditions pre-covid., and there would have been less layoffs.
Sad. We loosed out big time.
Sad. We loosed out big time.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
Better wages? No layoffs? Doubt it... the only certainty would be the 60 bucks less in my account every year.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
$60 well wasted. The end.
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
Well wasted? Did the college accomplish anything before it’s members clearly got bored and tired of wasting their time?
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
I would not say they got bored is 100% accurate. If I remember correctly there was a lot of negativity from the industry while they were active. You have to ask yourself why put effort into making an industry better when a big part of the industry was so negative. The question to ask is, Do we have a need for an association of this sort? If so what do we want to accomplish and how?
Re: College of Professional Pilots
Yes, well wasted in the sense that it accomplished nothing. Very well wasted even.Yycjetdriver wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 8:27 pmWell wasted? Did the college accomplish anything before it’s members clearly got bored and tired of wasting their time?
I wonder if the only asset they had in a projector was sold and used for beer?
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
Re: College of Professional Pilots

I had someone from the CPP ask me to join. After listening to how the CPP would hold me accountable etc it seemed like another regulatory body to me. Perhaps, the person caught me on a bad day and maybe it was how this was delivered.
Sure, by all means, I need to be held accountable. I do think I should behave and function in a manner that holds pilots in a positive light.
However, when we have some of the lowest pay and worst duty regulations out there I also see it as a two way street. When I brought this up.. the person from the CPP told me how If I was held to a higher standard things would fix themselves. - I Didn’t buy the coolaid. The focus for this individual was not looking at how pilots are treated...
Systemic problems are just that... adding another regulatory body that abdicates it’s responsibility to maintain ethical and safe working for other human beings and protects others from exploitative conditions is something I have a hard time paying into freely.
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
Lots of conversation here but no straight up answers. I gather from the conversation that it sounds like the College is defunct.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
Bradley Tucker wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 11:29 am I would not say they got bored is 100% accurate. If I remember correctly there was a lot of negativity from the industry while they were active. You have to ask yourself why put effort into making an industry better when a big part of the industry was so negative. The question to ask is, Do we have a need for an association of this sort? If so what do we want to accomplish and how?
I think the way a college or association would work would have to be similar to say the college of pharmacists. The college is responsible for discipline and licensing of all Ontario pharmacists. You would basically have to give up SMS to the college who would take on that responsibility. The college would also have a hand in licensing and medicals. It would be a drastic change, that no one would really accept as reasonable. If you fudge something up at work it would by up to the college to discipline you. Membership would cost 500 to 1000 per year.
For 60 bucks a year you really can't expect to much. I think the reality is for the college to work the pilots, airlines, unions and TC would have to give up lots of control to make it happen.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
maybe the problem was the name.

Can we reopen that debate ?!

Can we reopen that debate ?!
Re: College of Professional Pilots
No government will ever give up this power; the public would not stand for it. Nor would the ICAO. It cannot happen.montado wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 1:08 pm I think the way a college or association would work would have to be similar to say the college of pharmacists. The college is responsible for discipline and licensing of all Ontario pharmacists. You would basically have to give up SMS to the college who would take on that responsibility. The college would also have a hand in licensing and medicals.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
I'm not sure why not... They do it for other professions.
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
Yes; if the College of Professional Pilots of Canada was remarkable as a professional organization for any reason, it would be because the majority of their putative recruiting base were too stupid to understand what the word "college" means in a professional sense; and resented any implication that they may have been subjected to any form of education in the past.doiwannabeapilot wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 5:36 pm maybe the problem was the name.
Can we reopen that debate ?!
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
Re: College of Professional Pilots
Other professions. Funny.
Go search on the Government of Canada website (https://noc.esdc.gc.ca/) for the classification of pilots. They're listed under 2271 - skill level B "Occupations usually require college education, specialized training or apprenticeship training"
Then check physicians, and all the other health professions: skill level "A – Occupations usually require university education"
Being a pilot is a machinery operation role. Very highly skilled, but not in the same class as the professions. Sorry.
And look at the history: the Royal College of Physicians goes back to 1518, and Henry VIII. The Law Society (in the UK) was founded in 1825. The Law Society of Ontario was founded in 1797. The structure for the regulation of the legal and medical and allied healthcare professions goes back centuries. If this was 1910 and flight had just been invented then you might have a chance. But it's 2020, a hundred years too late, and no country in the world has a college of pilots as a regulatory body, and there is not the slightest chance that Canada will be the first.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
Interesting... I didn't even know such a classification system existed, despite falling into one of the "A" professions.photofly wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 1:36 pmGo search on the Government of Canada website (https://noc.esdc.gc.ca/) for the classification of pilots. They're listed under 2271 - skill level B "Occupations usually require college education, specialized training or apprenticeship training"
This is just one classification system, and it's not absolute. Some of the professions (mine, for example) allow for non-university educated people to "challenge" the system by demonstrating equivalent knowledge and practical experience to be accepted as a professional within the field.Being a pilot is a machinery operation role. Very highly skilled, but not in the same class as the professions. Sorry.
It would be difficult for aviation to have a professional group more than about 100 years old, given there were no aircraft before then. In contrast, the human body has been getting sick for thousands of years, and people have been arguing legal matters as long as there have been two people and one had an apple the other one wanted. All of these professional groups started well after their "professions" were underway, and they've all advanced significantly since their inception. They had to start somewhere.And look at the history: the Royal College of Physicians goes back to 1518, and Henry VIII. The Law Society (in the UK) was founded in 1825. The Law Society of Ontario was founded in 1797. The structure for the regulation of the legal and medical and allied healthcare professions goes back centuries. If this was 1910 and flight had just been invented then you might have a chance. But it's 2020, a hundred years too late, and no country in the world has a college of pilots as a regulatory body, and there is not the slightest chance that Canada will be the first.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
The takeaway is not that every lawyer requires a university degree nor that no pilot has one. It is simply that, as far as government and the world is concerned, being a pilot is job, and not a profession.Some of the professions (mine, for example) allow for non-university educated people to "challenge" the system by demonstrating equivalent knowledge and practical experience to be accepted as a professional within the field.
The professional colleges were advanced as the way to regulate the professions, by the members of the profession, given the state of society in that era, and because there did not already exist any kind of oversight or governance. As far as I am aware in no situation has a professional college taken over a regulatory responsibility that was already engaged by government. For pilots, regulation already exists. Government is pathologically unable to relinquish control of anything, once it has assumed it.All of these professional groups started well after their "professions" were underway, and they've all advanced significantly since their inception.
A more appropriate body than a professional college would be a trade guild; historically the guilds controlled who was allowed to hold themselves out as a practitioner of any trade. Having a look at who controls access to for instance a master electrician's licence, might be instructive: and yes, it's the government.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
With all the disgruntled voices around pilot wages and with how the industry is going, thought I would resurrect this not-too-old thread and see what the appetite is for the CPPC becoming more vibrant. ALPA and Unifor and the other unions are doing not a terrible job but that is not really helping out now, is it? A unified voice across the industry might be the requirement and now seems to be as good a time as any for something like this to come about.
For everyone whose argument is "Don't take that job" or "Stop working for free", remember that not everyone has that option and employers are easily able to manipulate job-seeking applicants to fit their narrative. I am not asking for a regulatory body but more of a wage and conditions negotiator. A college/guild/union to help guide pilots to negotiate a fair wage.
For everyone whose argument is "Don't take that job" or "Stop working for free", remember that not everyone has that option and employers are easily able to manipulate job-seeking applicants to fit their narrative. I am not asking for a regulatory body but more of a wage and conditions negotiator. A college/guild/union to help guide pilots to negotiate a fair wage.
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
Canada could certainty be the first country to have a self regulated group of pilots. We have very smart and creative people in this industry. Canadian aviation is also full of innovation and is globally respected for our ability to use aircraft effectively and safely in some of the world's harshest climates. This idea of a college or guild in my opinion can only succeed if pilots can self regulate. This of course is a very high mountain to climb.photofly wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 9:25 pmNo government will ever give up this power; the public would not stand for it. Nor would the ICAO. It cannot happen.montado wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 1:08 pm I think the way a college or association would work would have to be similar to say the college of pharmacists. The college is responsible for discipline and licensing of all Ontario pharmacists. You would basically have to give up SMS to the college who would take on that responsibility. The college would also have a hand in licensing and medicals.
There are three massive obstacles to obtaining self regulation as I see it. Firstly Parliment has to agree a guild/collage is up to the job and can do it better than Transport Canada. Under the present government this may not be possible but governments change. Doing things better and cheaper will convince the public at large.
Secondly the costs associated will have to be borne by the guild. Are there any government budget hawks here who could guess what TC spends on the regulation of pilots? There must be a known operating budget for Commercial and Business Aviation. Can the costs for pilot regulatory affairs be parsed out? The other big cost will be liability. How much does TC currently spend defending itself from lawsuits? Can any group other than the GOC handle the potential liability? These numbers will need to be known before moving forward. I think we should have a pragmatic attitude and take a sober look at what this could cost us before we talk further about what is to gain.
Finally there is the ICAO issue. Not only does a guild have to convince Canadians it can function safely, but also the world regulators. No small task.
I'm sure I can muse on further but I must get the kids tucked in.
Onward and upward.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
If Canada wants wages like the rest of the world, it has to come in the form of limiting the supply of pilots.
In Europe, it comes in the form of expensive flight training, and bring your own type rating. Flying a jet in your early 20s because you were a member of the upper class. I’m willing to bet that most of you didn’t have rich parents, so you’d be excluded and those rich kids could have better salaries.
In the rest of the world, it’s limited by the lack of training and aviation opportunities. You are rich, go in through the military, or go in through cadet programs.. and because they have chronic shortages of national pilots, well-paid expats fill the gaps. So Canada would need to make flying light aircraft almost prohibitively expensive or exclusive (maybe bring back regulation and protected bases).
In the USA.. they don’t have those problems. They have lots of flight schools and cheap flight training, a large air force, and plenty of smaller operators to feed pilots to their airlines. The reason why they pay more is because relative to population they don’t have as many smaller operators as Canada does, and they have the 1500 hour rule because of a little incident in Buffalo a few years ago. So again, try and stifle smaller operators and FTUs in Canada and introduce a 1500 hour rule for 705 so most of the puppies they do make die at the pound.
Sure the Buffalo guys had more hours, but they were hired with less so didn’t gain valuable experience on smaller planes, like how not to stall.
However in Canada it seems to be the other way. Three airliner crashes in the last decade, two of them fatal. Two of them had crews with over 20,000 hours of combined experience and the other one nearly 18,000 hours. It seems to me that putting underpaid 250 hour wonders in the cockpit doesn’t seem to be affecting safety. Reading through that First Air script makes me think a less experienced crew wouldn’t have even chanced it at the first sign of trouble.
It should be noted that pretty much all of the things I suggested are counter to what the college or advocates of higher wages want. Now that they are here and “pilots” thanks to one of the easiest and cheapest markets in which to be one, they want the wages where it’s harder.
They aren’t willing to vote with their feet and refuse to work, or move elsewhere.. because they want to stay in Canada. And for good reason too. Moving elsewhere for more money is not without its painful drawbacks.
But eventually this problem will correct itself. It may in the USA as airline lobbyists try and open the floodgates for hour reductions and expats while simultaneously lots of people start training for a lucrative career.. and in Canada people give up and vacate the industry.
Trying to change it with a silly organization that simply says we want more money, or else……. isn’t going to do anything.
In Europe, it comes in the form of expensive flight training, and bring your own type rating. Flying a jet in your early 20s because you were a member of the upper class. I’m willing to bet that most of you didn’t have rich parents, so you’d be excluded and those rich kids could have better salaries.
In the rest of the world, it’s limited by the lack of training and aviation opportunities. You are rich, go in through the military, or go in through cadet programs.. and because they have chronic shortages of national pilots, well-paid expats fill the gaps. So Canada would need to make flying light aircraft almost prohibitively expensive or exclusive (maybe bring back regulation and protected bases).
In the USA.. they don’t have those problems. They have lots of flight schools and cheap flight training, a large air force, and plenty of smaller operators to feed pilots to their airlines. The reason why they pay more is because relative to population they don’t have as many smaller operators as Canada does, and they have the 1500 hour rule because of a little incident in Buffalo a few years ago. So again, try and stifle smaller operators and FTUs in Canada and introduce a 1500 hour rule for 705 so most of the puppies they do make die at the pound.
Sure the Buffalo guys had more hours, but they were hired with less so didn’t gain valuable experience on smaller planes, like how not to stall.
However in Canada it seems to be the other way. Three airliner crashes in the last decade, two of them fatal. Two of them had crews with over 20,000 hours of combined experience and the other one nearly 18,000 hours. It seems to me that putting underpaid 250 hour wonders in the cockpit doesn’t seem to be affecting safety. Reading through that First Air script makes me think a less experienced crew wouldn’t have even chanced it at the first sign of trouble.
It should be noted that pretty much all of the things I suggested are counter to what the college or advocates of higher wages want. Now that they are here and “pilots” thanks to one of the easiest and cheapest markets in which to be one, they want the wages where it’s harder.
They aren’t willing to vote with their feet and refuse to work, or move elsewhere.. because they want to stay in Canada. And for good reason too. Moving elsewhere for more money is not without its painful drawbacks.
But eventually this problem will correct itself. It may in the USA as airline lobbyists try and open the floodgates for hour reductions and expats while simultaneously lots of people start training for a lucrative career.. and in Canada people give up and vacate the industry.
Trying to change it with a silly organization that simply says we want more money, or else……. isn’t going to do anything.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
Isn't that what a Union is for?PeterParker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:38 pmFor everyone whose argument is "Don't take that job" or "Stop working for free", remember that not everyone has that option and employers are easily able to manipulate job-seeking applicants to fit their narrative. I am not asking for a regulatory body but more of a wage and conditions negotiator. A college/guild/union to help guide pilots to negotiate a fair wage.
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Re: College of Professional Pilots
Doubtful most folks here know the difference between a union and a professional association.AirFrame wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:17 amIsn't that what a Union is for?PeterParker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:38 pmFor everyone whose argument is "Don't take that job" or "Stop working for free", remember that not everyone has that option and employers are easily able to manipulate job-seeking applicants to fit their narrative. I am not asking for a regulatory body but more of a wage and conditions negotiator. A college/guild/union to help guide pilots to negotiate a fair wage.
But the short story, in a quick nutshell. When a disciplinary action is being contemplated, the professional association is the enforcer, the union is the defender. For a good example, look at nursing. The college looks after licensing, the union tends to wages and working conditions.
I think part of the issue, airline pilot unions try masquerade as a 'professional association', but are in reality just another trade union.
Re: College of Professional Pilots
PeterParker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:38 pmA college/guild/union to help guide pilots to negotiate a fair wage.
Exactly. And that's what PeterParker seems to want, another Union.goldeneagle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:00 amThe college looks after licensing, the union tends to wages and working conditions.
I think part of the issue, airline pilot unions try masquerade as a 'professional association', but are in reality just another trade union.