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Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:07 pm
by PilotY
Hi there.
I was practicing XC flight planning when I noticed one of my routes would be overflying a gliders airfield. They have an (R) next to their name on the VNC and in the CFS they are noted as needing Prior Permission Required. Now, my memory from the CARs tells me that I could overfly this Aerodrome at 2000ft AGL minimum, so long as I make contact on their ATF frequency, however, their ATF extends to 3000ft AGL and with a 5NM radius.
Therefore, are aircraft which do not have intention to land at that Aerodrome required to remain clear of the ATF area? Or can they overly the Aerodrome provided they are on the correct ATF.
Thanks
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm
by photofly
ATF's impose no mandatory radio communications. Traffic not landing should not overfly an aerodrome below 2000' AAE (602.96(4)), but you're welcome to overfly at or above that altitude, and a call on the ATF is polite but not strictly required.
PPR is a request by the owner or operator and not a regulatory restriction; registrants of uncertified aerodromes do not gain a legal power to keep you from using the airspace around their aerodrome, beyond restrictions that apply to all aerodromes via the CARs.
If you land at a PPR aerodrome without permission you would be committing a trespass, but that's a civil matter and beyond the reach of Transport Canada or the Civil Aviation Regulations.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:16 pm
by PilotY
photofly wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm
ATF's impose no mandatory radio communications. Traffic not landing should not overfly an aerodrome below 2000' AAE (602.96(4)), but you're welcome to overfly at or above that altitude, and a call on the ATF is polite but not strictly required.
Thanks for your response. Does the aerodrome being listed as (R) with PPR required change any of that?
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:17 pm
by photofly
PilotY wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:16 pm
photofly wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm
ATF's impose no mandatory radio communications. Traffic not landing should not overfly an aerodrome below 2000' AAE (602.96(4)), but you're welcome to overfly at or above that altitude, and a call on the ATF is polite but not strictly required.
Thanks for your response. Does the aerodrome being listed as (R) with PPR required change any of that?
No.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:53 pm
by iflyforpie
photofly wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm
ATF's impose no mandatory radio communications. Traffic not landing should not overfly an aerodrome below 2000' AAE (602.96(4)), but you're welcome to overfly at or above that altitude, and a call on the ATF is polite but not strictly required.
PPR is a request by the owner or operator and not a regulatory restriction; registrants of uncertified aerodromes do not gain a legal power to keep you from using the airspace around their aerodrome, beyond restrictions that apply to all aerodromes via the CARs.
If you land at a PPR aerodrome without permission you would be committing a trespass, but that's a civil matter and beyond the reach of Transport Canada or the Civil Aviation Regulations.
I’m pretty sure there’s some rules in Part III about occupying the maneuvering areas without permission of the airport operator.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:07 pm
by Loon-A-Tic
Is 5 miles really that far of track to be a concern
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:09 pm
by photofly
iflyforpie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:53 pm
photofly wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm
ATF's impose no mandatory radio communications. Traffic not landing should not overfly an aerodrome below 2000' AAE (602.96(4)), but you're welcome to overfly at or above that altitude, and a call on the ATF is polite but not strictly required.
PPR is a request by the owner or operator and not a regulatory restriction; registrants of uncertified aerodromes do not gain a legal power to keep you from using the airspace around their aerodrome, beyond restrictions that apply to all aerodromes via the CARs.
If you land at a PPR aerodrome without permission you would be committing a trespass, but that's a civil matter and beyond the reach of Transport Canada or the Civil Aviation Regulations.
I’m pretty sure there’s some rules in Part III about occupying the maneuvering areas without permission of the airport operator.
a quick check and I don’t see anything.. can you investigate?
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:11 pm
by digits_
photofly wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm
If you land at a PPR aerodrome without permission you would be committing a trespass, but that's a civil matter and beyond the reach of Transport Canada or the Civil Aviation Regulations.
What about this one:
Prohibitions
301.08 No person shall
(a) walk, stand, drive a vehicle, park a vehicle or aircraft or cause an obstruction on the movement area of an aerodrome, except in accordance with permission given
(i) by the operator of the aerodrome, and
(ii) where applicable, by the appropriate air traffic control unit or flight service station;
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:03 pm
by photofly
It says you can’t park an aircraft without permission. It doesn’t say anything about landing, taxiing, or taking off.
It’s pretty clear that clause is all about non-operational activities on a movement area, hence parking, vehicles, obstruction, walking, standing etc. I don’t think there’s any regulation allowing an aerodrome operator to direct or restrict moving aircraft on the movement area; I think that’s a power reserved for qualified air traffic control officers, at a controlled aerodrome.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:31 pm
by Heliian
The gliders mention would have me avoiding that like the covid.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:22 pm
by 2R
Call the operator , sometimes they might maybe give you permission to land . Some people like to know who is landing is all . Been to a few places like that they enjoy their airport if you respect the property they might even let you return .
Case of beer usually works
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:34 pm
by praveen4143
2R wrote: ↑Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:22 pm
Call the operator , sometimes they might maybe give you permission to land . Some people like to know who is landing is all . Been to a few places like that they enjoy their airport if you respect the property they might even let you return .
Case of beer usually works
Agree on this. A lot of PPR aerodromes are such only to reduce or avoid liability. Last thing they want is for someone to flip an airplane and sue the operator saying that they didn’t keep the aerodrome perfectly manicured or something. I’ve been to a few PPR dromes after calling ahead and they’re usually okay with it and some were even very welcoming of me.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:13 pm
by photofly
There's not a lot of point registering an aerodrome and putting it in the CFS if you want nobody to land there...
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:50 pm
by digits_
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:13 pm
There's not a lot of point registering an aerodrome and putting it in the CFS if you want nobody to land there...
In MB you need the registration to get aerial markers installed.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:59 pm
by photofly
What are aerial markers?
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pm
by digits_
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:59 pm
What are aerial markers?
That's what the hydro company called those colorful balls on the powerlines.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:05 pm
by photofly
Ah, thanks.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:19 pm
by Heliian
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:13 pm
There's not a lot of point registering an aerodrome and putting it in the CFS if you want nobody to land there...
I'll have to rifle through the cfs but there's many reasons why it would be marked ppr or pnr.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:47 pm
by fleetcanuck
My understanding of the reason for the ATF extending to 3000AGL is that they tow the gliders to that altitude over the aerodrome. I would certainly want to be talking with them to avoid their traffic before flying through the ATF. As mentioned, the glider traffic can be heavy and difficult to see. Whenever I have flown through or into a glider ATF, I have found them to be friendly and helpful.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:49 am
by Squaretail
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:13 pm
There's not a lot of point registering an aerodrome and putting it in the CFS if you want nobody to land there...
You should tell the owners of CFX2 that.
Re: Overflying (R) Aerodromes where PPR is required?
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:04 am
by photofly
Are they stroppy?