RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

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BodhiWes
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RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by BodhiWes »

Here's the question pertaining to CYHZ (Halifax). The question is from the Aerocourse ATPL Workbook.

You are about to commence taxing for departure in Halifax (CYHZ), the active runway is 23. The RVR for runways 14 is 1200 ft and 23 is 1000, the latest METAR indicates 1/4 sm visibility. Which of the following statements is correct?

a) The aerodrome operating visibility is deemed to be below minimum so you are not allowed to taxi to 23.
b) The ground visibility (METAR) takes precedence in this case and you are allowed to taxi to any runway.
c) You are permitted to taxi to runway 23 but take-off is not permitted until the RVR increases to 1200.
d) The Aerodrome Operating Visibility does not apply to Commercial Operators.

The answer is a). But why? Honestly, I don't think any of the answers are correct. How I understand it, RWY 23 LVO is 600. Therefore, it is operational for how I understand these rules since the RVR is 1000 for 23.

If anyone can help me, and explain why a) is correct, I would really appreciate it. Aerocourse doesn't seem to care, I guess they only help those who pay the $550 for the course.
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frog
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by frog »

In theory YHZ airport is good to 600 feet for 23.
So is there something missing ? A Notam or a note ?
Something about the plane we don't know ?
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rxl
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by rxl »

Off the top of my head - does the question specify that you have the Specific Approval for Take-Off Minima - Reported Visibility RVR 600’ - Aeroplanes? If not, then you need standard minima of RVR 2600 or 1/2 SM to taxi out or depart. YHZ airport has LVOP in place for runway 23 only, so the AIRPORT is good for RVR 600’ but unless you have Specific Approval as a private (604) or commercial operator (governed under part VII of the CARS),you cannot taxi or depart with the visibility and/or RVR as reported in the question.
The RVR on 14 is a red herring because with an operating control tower, departures are governed by the RVR for the runway of INTENDED use.

From CAP GEN -
EFF 10 NOV 16
16
OPERATING MINIMA
Canada Air Pilot
Effective 0901Z 10 SEP 2020 to 0901Z 5 NOV 2020
EFF 6 FEB 14
16
EFF 10 NOV 16
OPERATING MINIMA
General
CAR 602 specifies take-offs for all Canadian aircraft as being governed by visibility only, approach restrictions by RVR values only, and landings by published DH/MDAs only.
Aerodrome Operating Restrictions – Visibility
CAR 602.96 (2)(b) requires that before taking off from, landing at or otherwise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall be satisfied that the aerodrome is suitable for the intended operation. Additionally, for Air and Private Operators, the CARs (and associated Standards and Operations Specifications) govern operations below
RVR 2600 (1⁄2 SM).
One factor that needs to be considered to ensure compliance with the regulatory requirements above is the Aerodrome Operating Visibility.
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BodhiWes
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by BodhiWes »

Thank you for your responses. I should have included this which pertains to the questions.

-You are flying a large turboprop aircraft in a commercial operation. The maneuvering speed for departures and arrivals is 125kts. Your company has approval to conduct RVR 1200/ 1/4 SM take-offs and has Approach Ban minimum visibility OPS Spec. The aircraft is certified for engine-out take-off, climb and missed approach performance requirements. The scenarios presented are representative of what may be encountered on a regular basis in real world operations.-

I still stick to my belief that the answer a) shouldn't be correct. Am I missing something?
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digits_
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by digits_ »

BodhiWes wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:39 pm Thank you for your responses. I should have included this which pertains to the questions.

-You are flying a large turboprop aircraft in a commercial operation. The maneuvering speed for departures and arrivals is 125kts. Your company has approval to conduct RVR 1200/ 1/4 SM take-offs and has Approach Ban minimum visibility OPS Spec. The aircraft is certified for engine-out take-off, climb and missed approach performance requirements. The scenarios presented are representative of what may be encountered on a regular basis in real world operations.-

I still stick to my belief that the answer a) shouldn't be correct. Am I missing something?
You need RVR1200 for takeoff as that is what your company approval is valid for. Rwy 23 is reporting 1000. So no, you can't taxi for take-off on rwy 23. Assuming a controlled airport with active tower.
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/refere ... s-faqs#q13
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turbo-prop
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by turbo-prop »

At sites with an active Air Traffic Control (ATC) Tower :
(in accordance with published airport operational procedures)

For Arrivals and departures, the aerodrome operating visibility is in accordance with the following hierarchy:

1. Runway Visual Range (RVR) for the runway of intended use
2. Aerodrome visibility (METAR)
3. Pilot visibility
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rxl
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by rxl »

1. Runway Visual Range (RVR) for the runway of intended use is the issue here.
Because your company Specific Approval is for MINIMUM RVR 1200’, answer a) is correct as stated above.
Answer b) is incorrect because the reported ground visibility (YHZ is an airport WITH an operating control tower) only takes precedence IF there is no reported RVR available. That is clearly not the situation here. The Specific Approval is not a case of RVR 1200’ or visibility 1/4SM whichever is greater.
Answer c) is incorrect as stated above.
Answer d) is obviously out to lunch.
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digits_
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by digits_ »

rxl wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:22 pm 1. Runway Visual Range (RVR) for the runway of intended use is the issue here.
Because your company Specific Approval is for MINIMUM RVR 1200’, answer a) is correct as stated above.
Answer b) is incorrect because the reported ground visibility (YHZ is an airport WITH an operating control tower) only takes precedence IF there is no reported RVR available. That is clearly not the situation here. The Specific Approval is not a case of RVR 1200’ or visibility 1/4SM whichever is greater.
Answer c) is incorrect as stated above.
Answer d) is obviously out to lunch.
Regarding your explanation for b). For departures you have to take the lowest value of RVR and metar. RVR does not take precedence. I think you are describing the arrival part.
At sites without an active ATC Tower:
(outside ATC operating hours, MF, Unicom, CARS, or advisory sites, etc…)

For Arrivals, the aerodrome operating visibility is in accordance with the following hierarchy:

Runway Visual Range (RVR) for the runway of intended use
Aerodrome visibility (METAR)
Pilot visibility
For departures, the aerodrome operating visibility is the lowest of the following visibilities;

Aerodrome visibility (METAR)
Any reported RVR
Pilot visibility
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
rxl
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by rxl »

I always joke that in situations like this for departure or arrival, I’m calling my lawyer first.
I stand to be corrected but there is this from TC RVOP/LVOP FAQs - I think the key here is whether or not there is an active control tower -

13. For the purposes of reduced/low visibility operations, what is the aerodrome operating visibility?

(1) The Aerodrome operating visibility is defined as follows;

At sites with an active Air Traffic Control (ATC) Tower :
(in accordance with published airport operational procedures)

For Arrivals and departures, the aerodrome operating visibility is in accordance with the following hierarchy:

Runway Visual Range (RVR) for the runway of intended use
Aerodrome visibility (METAR)
Pilot visibility
At sites without an active ATC Tower:
(outside ATC operating hours, MF, Unicom, CARS, or advisory sites, etc…)

For Arrivals, the aerodrome operating visibility is in accordance with the following hierarchy:

Runway Visual Range (RVR) for the runway of intended use
Aerodrome visibility (METAR)
Pilot visibility
For departures, the aerodrome operating visibility is the lowest of the following visibilities;

Aerodrome visibility (METAR)
Any reported RVR
Pilot visibility
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Last edited by rxl on Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by rxl »

There is also this from the TC RVOP/LVOP FAQs -

25. Will a lower ground visibility report take precedence over a runway visibility report?

For the purpose of taxiing for departure;

At sites without an active control tower (ATC) Yes, as a reported lower ground visibility is governing.
Note: For departure, where the reported aerodrome visibility is below the level of service for the intended runway of operations, RVR for that runway may only be used by the pilot where special procedures have been established by the aerodrome operator pursuant to an RVOP/LVOP , such as to restrict aircraft on the manoeuvring area to one at any time.

At sites with ATC the reported visibility for the runway to be used is governing .

Note : For departure, where the reported aerodrome visibility is below the level of service for the intended runway of operations, RVR for that runway may be used by the pilot. However pilots need to be cognizant because the aerodrome is in a reduced or low visibility condition, the aerodrome operator may have elected to either establish special procedures pursuant to an RVOP/LVOP to continue operations such as to restrict aircraft on the manoeuvring area to one at any time, or to actually cease operations.

As always, I stand to be corrected.
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digits_
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by digits_ »

My mistake, apologies, there is a tower. Quoted the wrong part.
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BTD
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by BTD »

digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:01 pm
rxl wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:22 pm 1. Runway Visual Range (RVR) for the runway of intended use is the issue here.
Because your company Specific Approval is for MINIMUM RVR 1200’, answer a) is correct as stated above.
Answer b) is incorrect because the reported ground visibility (YHZ is an airport WITH an operating control tower) only takes precedence IF there is no reported RVR available. That is clearly not the situation here. The Specific Approval is not a case of RVR 1200’ or visibility 1/4SM whichever is greater.
Answer c) is incorrect as stated above.
Answer d) is obviously out to lunch.
Regarding your explanation for b). For departures you have to take the lowest value of RVR and metar. RVR does not take precedence. I think you are describing the arrival part.
At sites without an active ATC Tower:
(outside ATC operating hours, MF, Unicom, CARS, or advisory sites, etc…)

For Arrivals, the aerodrome operating visibility is in accordance with the following hierarchy:

Runway Visual Range (RVR) for the runway of intended use
Aerodrome visibility (METAR)
Pilot visibility
For departures, the aerodrome operating visibility is the lowest of the following visibilities;

Aerodrome visibility (METAR)
Any reported RVR
Pilot visibility
RVR takes precedence for the intended runway regardless of metar if there is an active tower.

If no active tower you than take the LOWEST of RVR, Ground vis, pilot vis becomes limiting.

For arrivals, tower status is irrelevant.

Edit: NM I posted this as you were posting yours.
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BodhiWes
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by BodhiWes »

Ok, its that simple. A) is correct due to "Your company has approval to conduct RVR 1200/ 1/4 SM Take-offs." Thank you very much everyone, this helps me out and gives me clarity on the subject. Glad I joined this website for aviation discussions.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by Chaxterium »

So we know this: RWY 23's level of service is 600. However that's irrelevant because we only have the Ops Spec for RVR1200 take offs. This means that no matter what, we need RVR1200 for take off. Period. In addition, we need RVR1200 before we can even begin our taxi. So since the current RVR for runway 23 is 1000, we cannot depart—or even taxi. We can start the engines, but that's it.

The correct answer is indeed A. B is wrong because RVR (when available) takes precedence. The only way C would be correct is if the RVR was 1200 when the aircraft started taxiing, but then dropped to 1000 during the taxi. In that scenario the aircraft would be allowed to continue the taxi all the way to the runway, but would then have to wait until the visibility came up to 1200.

Clear as mud?
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by BTD »

I’ll throw this out there for those of us flying into and out of cyhz regularly in real life.

Keep in mind that RVR 600 for Rwy 23 is only available from the displaced runway threshold. You cannot begin your takeoff from the taxiway entrance. You must move forward to the “start” line. There is no centreline lighting before the displaced threshold and there is a note about it.

It’s very sneaky.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by rxl »

BTD wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:02 pm I’ll throw this out there for those of us flying into and out of cyhz regularly in real life.

Keep in mind that RVR 600 for Rwy 23 is only available from the displaced runway threshold. You cannot begin your takeoff from the taxiway entrance. You must move forward to the “start” line. There is no centreline lighting before the displaced threshold and there is a note about it.

It’s very sneaky.
Yep. You have to read ALL the notes. There are a few gotchas out there.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by thenoflyzone »

I think the question is poorly written, regardless.

First of all, Runway 23 has 2 RVRs. The question could be more specific in this regard.

And also, in order to be in LVOP, both those RVRs must be below 1200. If RVR A is 1000, but B is still showing 1400, the airport wont go into LVOP. Pilots aren't expected to know this however. All they need to know is that the airport is or isn't in LVOP, and that information can be had through the ATIS.

The question could have specified the LVOP status of the airport also.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by kalerg »

For what it is worth, if you have a RVR equipped rwy 23 but rwy 05 doesn't and rwy 05 is in use, even if the RVR rwy 23 is reported and above 1200, but METAR says 1/4sm vis you can not take rwy 23 RVR if taking off rwy 05.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by rxl »

thenoflyzone wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:39 pm I think the question is poorly written, regardless.

First of all, Runway 23 has 2 RVRs. The question could be more specific in this regard.

And also, in order to be in LVOP, both those RVRs must be below 1200. If RVR A is 1000, but B is still showing 1400, the airport wont go into LVOP. Pilots aren't expected to know this however. All they need to know is that the airport is or isn't in LVOP, and that information can be had through the ATIS.

The question could have specified the LVOP status of the airport also.
I agree with you, but you can only answer the question based on the information given. The knowledge that both RVR A and B should read below 1200’ before LVOP is declared is kind of beyond the scope of an ATPL written exam.
Is this requirement part of Transport Canada’s general rules for airports to develop their RVOP/LVOP or could this be an airport specific thing? What about a CATIII runway with RVR A, B and C?
RVR 1000’ is the stop sign for this question as written.

Having said that, in this example, if CYHZ is operating under their RVOP and has NOT declared LVOP, I don’t think that there is anything regulatory stopping this crew from requesting runway 14 (thereby making it their “runway of intended use”) then taxiing for and departing 14 providing it is suitable for their operation at RVR 1200’ and all of the requirements have been met.
RVOP/LVOP plans are airport and runway specific so like I said in an earlier post, you have to be very careful and read all the notes on your airport charts, in the CAP, CFS and of course NOTAMS.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by Scuderia »

thenoflyzone wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:39 pm And also, in order to be in LVOP, both those RVRs must be below 1200. If RVR A is 1000, but B is still showing 1400, the airport wont go into LVOP.
rxl wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:58 amI agree with you, but you can only answer the question based on the information given. The knowledge that both RVR A and B should read below 1200’ before LVOP is declared is kind of beyond the scope of an ATPL written exam.
Is there an available reference for this? Is it in Nav Canada's procedures?

My understanding was that an airport will go into RVO/LVO when ATC determines that RVR going below 2600/1200 is imminent. The airport operator at the direction of ATC activates the RVOP/LVOP, advises ATC that preparations have been completed, then ATC can declare RVO/LVO is in effect. I have seen all this happen before the vis actually drops.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by rxl »

Scuderia wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:34 am
thenoflyzone wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:39 pm And also, in order to be in LVOP, both those RVRs must be below 1200. If RVR A is 1000, but B is still showing 1400, the airport wont go into LVOP.
rxl wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:58 amI agree with you, but you can only answer the question based on the information given. The knowledge that both RVR A and B should read below 1200’ before LVOP is declared is kind of beyond the scope of an ATPL written exam.
Is there an available reference for this? Is it in Nav Canada's procedures?

My understanding was that an airport will go into RVO/LVO when ATC determines that RVR going below 2600/1200 is imminent. The airport operator at the direction of ATC activates the RVOP/LVOP, advises ATC that preparations have been completed, then ATC can declare RVO/LVO is in effect. I have seen all this happen before the vis actually drops.
I have no idea where this comes from and I haven’t really researched it. My guess is that it may come from TC’s guidance to airport operating authorities when drawing up their RVOP/LVOP.
My understanding before reading thenoflyzone’s post was the same as yours.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by thenoflyzone »

Scuderia wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:34 am
Is there an available reference for this? Is it in Nav Canada's procedures?

My understanding was that an airport will go into RVO/LVO when ATC determines that RVR going below 2600/1200 is imminent. The airport operator at the direction of ATC activates the RVOP/LVOP, advises ATC that preparations have been completed, then ATC can declare RVO/LVO is in effect. I have seen all this happen before the vis actually drops.
Your airline can ask for a copy of the LVOP plan from any airport authority, but otherwise, no, its not available for pilots.

You have to understand that airport authorities/Nav Canada doesn't really want to go into RVOP/LVOP if it doesn't have to, because there are restrictions that need to be put in place on the maneuvering area when you activate the plan. If they can avoid this, they will. So if the visibility is above RVR 2600 or RVR 1200, they wont activate RVOP/LVOP. This is the way it is done, at least at the airport I work at.

Take YWG as an example. Like YHZ, they only have 1 runway that is LVOP certifed, rwy 36, but unlike YHZ, they don't have red stop bars on the taxiways leading to the runway. Because of this, if they ever activate LVOP, the plan will limit 1 aircraft on the maneuvering area at a time. That is extremely restrictive for an international airport. You can basically do around 6 movements an hour. So you'll understand why YWG will be reluctant to activate LVOP if the RVRs are above 1200.

RVOPs have similar restrictions if the airport doesn't have runway protection lights (wig wags). 1 aircraft on the maneuvering area at a time, follow me vehicles mandatory, RVOP not allowed at night, etc. These are all TC specs.

YQB didn't have wig wags, until recently. They installed them, due to all the RVOP restrictions that they had to abide by without wig wags.

An airport that is fully equipped with all the bells and whistles (taxiway centerline lights, wig wags, stop bars, etc), going into RVOP is a non issue, because there are virtually no restrictions for aircraft on the maneuvering area. LVOP is a bit more complicated, as it involves certain taxiways becoming one way, based on the airport and the LVOP plan.
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Re: RVOP/LVOP Question, Please help.

Post by rxl »

thenoflyzone wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:16 pm
Scuderia wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:34 am
Is there an available reference for this? Is it in Nav Canada's procedures?

My understanding was that an airport will go into RVO/LVO when ATC determines that RVR going below 2600/1200 is imminent. The airport operator at the direction of ATC activates the RVOP/LVOP, advises ATC that preparations have been completed, then ATC can declare RVO/LVO is in effect. I have seen all this happen before the vis actually drops.
Your airline can ask for a copy of the LVOP plan from any airport authority, but otherwise, no, its not available for pilots.

You have to understand that airport authorities/Nav Canada doesn't really want to go into RVOP/LVOP if it doesn't have to, because there are restrictions that need to be put in place on the maneuvering area when you activate the plan. If they can avoid this, they will. So if the visibility is above RVR 2600 or RVR 1200, they wont activate RVOP/LVOP. This is the way it is done, at least at the airport I work at.

Take YWG as an example. Like YHZ, they only have 1 runway that is LVOP certifed, rwy 36, but unlike YHZ, they don't have red stop bars on the taxiways leading to the runway. Because of this, if they ever activate LVOP, the plan will limit 1 aircraft on the maneuvering area at a time. That is extremely restrictive for an international airport. You can basically do around 6 movements an hour. So you'll understand why YWG will be reluctant to activate LVOP if the RVRs are above 1200.

RVOPs have similar restrictions if the airport doesn't have runway protection lights (wig wags). 1 aircraft on the maneuvering area at a time, follow me vehicles mandatory, RVOP not allowed at night, etc. These are all TC specs.

YQB didn't have wig wags, until recently. They installed them, due to all the RVOP restrictions that they had to abide by without wig wags.

An airport that is fully equipped with all the bells and whistles (taxiway centerline lights, wig wags, stop bars, etc), going into RVOP is a non issue, because there are virtually no restrictions for aircraft on the maneuvering area. LVOP is a bit more complicated, as it involves certain taxiways becoming one way, based on the airport and the LVOP plan.
Thanks for the insight!
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