Aerobatics Training

[Whitebless]

Hello all,

My apologies in advance if there was a previous post similar to this.

I am thinking of doing some aerobatics training. I am just wondering is there a particular license for aerobatic flying in Canada? All I can find is that aerobatics instructor rating.

If there is no licenses or endorsement, what are some recommended courses I should take? I did look through the international aerobatic club website, and went through the list of schools in Canada; however, it seems that some schools are offering slightly different courses.

Thank you very much!

[Conflicting Traffic]

I am just wondering is there a particular license for aerobatic flying in Canada? All I can find is that aerobatics instructor rating.

There is no non-instructor aerobatic rating. But there are training/experience/recency requirements if you want to carry passengers. Take a look at CAR 602.28: https://lois-laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/reg ... l#s-602.28

it seems that some schools are offering slightly different courses.

There's no standard syllabus, so the program can vary quite a bit. Go to CAR 421.91 (https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-servi ... ars#421_91) to see what exercises are required for Aerobatic Instructor training and are fair game on the Aerobatic Instructor flight test. This should give you a good idea of what to expect on a basic aerobatics course.

(i) aerobatic spin entry and recovery (minimum 1 turn);
(ii) loop;
(iii) barrel roll;
(iv) slow roll;
(v) snap roll;
(vi) hammerhead turn;
(vii) combination manoeuvres including:
(A) 1/2 loop followed by 1/2 roll (Immelmann Turn),
(B) 1/2 roll followed by 1/2 loop (Split S),
(C) 5/8 loop followed by 45º descending 1/2 roll (1/2 Cuban 8 ), and
(D) 45º climbing 1/2 roll followed by 5/8 loop (1/2 Reverse Cuban 8 ); and
(viii) recovery techniques from unplanned aerobatic manoeuvres.

[digits_]

Hello all,

My apologies in advance if there was a previous post similar to this.

I am thinking of doing some aerobatics training. I am just wondering is there a particular license for aerobatic flying in Canada? All I can find is that aerobatics instructor rating.

If there is no licenses or endorsement, what are some recommended courses I should take? I did look through the international aerobatic club website, and went through the list of schools in Canada; however, it seems that some schools are offering slightly different courses.

Thank you very much!

What's your goal? To rent a plane somewhere to fly aerobatics? In that case it would probably be best to fly with an aerobatic instructor at said school.

If you are planning on buying an airplane yourself, you might as well go buy one, read a bunch of books, go fly really high and try some stuff out. Or fly with any aerobatic pilot you trust if you need advice, there are no formal requirements really as long as you fly without pax.
Check with your insurance though if you go that route, they might have additional demands.

[Bede]

If you are planning on buying an airplane yourself, you might as well go buy one, read a bunch of books, go fly really high and try some stuff out.

What could go wrong? You over stress the airplane, get into an inverted spin that you don’t know how to recover from, you know, minor things.

That’s probably the most dangerous advice anyone has given on this board.

[photofly]

Maybe it’s an initiation test for a new poster.

[digits_]

If you are planning on buying an airplane yourself, you might as well go buy one, read a bunch of books, go fly really high and try some stuff out.

What could go wrong? You over stress the airplane, get into an inverted spin that you don’t know how to recover from, you know, minor things.

That’s probably the most dangerous advice anyone has given on this board.

If you are going to quote me, quote everything I wrote:

If you are planning on buying an airplane yourself, you might as well go buy one, read a bunch of books, go fly really high and try some stuff out. Or fly with any aerobatic pilot you trust if you need advice, there are no formal requirements really as long as you fly without pax.
Check with your insurance though if you go that route, they might have additional demands.

And I stand by that.

Teaching yourself aerobatics is one of the more exhilarating things you can do. If you do have access to your own airplane, and you read whatever you can find about flying aerobatics in your airplane, there is really no reason why you couldn't teach yourself if you're comfortable with that. It's still an airplane. It's one of the perks of flying in Canada that there are no formal training requirements to do this. Enjoy if you choose to do this. And yes, be careful.


To address your concerns: overstressing an aerobatic airplane during your first few exercises is unlikely, assuming you read some books and don't panic. You need quite a bit of control inputs to pull over (arbitrary number) 6G intentionally. The inverted spin 'danger' highly depends on your airplane type. Before you practice exercises where this is a realistic concern, just go up and do some intentional inverted spins. If you read up on those, and don't panic, it shouldn't be a big deal.

[Bede]

Still a bad idea.

I’ve read books, have lots of experience and have taught myself plenty in aviation. I’d love to do aerobatics but I still won’t do aerobatics without instruction first.

I was in a plane (not as PIC) and the owner goes, “should we do a roll?” We end up over stressing by 0.2 G. No damage but it put a healthy respect into me. I thought it was a pretty nice roll - it wasn’t.

I know another guy who tried a roll. He panicked and split s’d out ripping a bunch of rivets out of the wing.

And I know a third guy who died after a structural failure in an aerobatic plane (Scott Manning-BD-5). Didn’t know him well but it still sucked.

But hey, as long as you read some books and have enough altitude, you should be fine....

[digits_]

Still a bad idea.

I’ve read books, have lots of experience and have taught myself plenty in aviation. I’d love to do aerobatics but I still won’t do aerobatics without instruction first.

As is your right. Nothing wrong with that.

I was in a plane (not as PIC) and the owner goes, “should we do a roll?” We end up over stressing by 0.2 G. No damage but it put a healthy respect into me. I thought it was a pretty nice roll - it wasn’t.

What type of airplane? What were the g limits?

The way you describe it, it doesn't sound like the owner really read up on aerobatic manoeuvres, or was really prepared to do any such exercises during the flight. If you decide on a whim to roll or loop, you'll probably have a bad time.

I know another guy who tried a roll. He panicked and split s’d out ripping a bunch of rivets out of the wing.

Yup. Panick is not good:

To address your concerns: overstressing an aerobatic airplane during your first few exercises is unlikely, assuming you read some books and don't panic. You need quite a bit of control inputs to pull over (arbitrary number) 6G intentionally. The inverted spin 'danger' highly depends on your airplane type. Before you practice exercises where this is a realistic concern, just go up and do some intentional inverted spins. If you read up on those, and don't panic, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Also doesn't sound like he was prepared.
Did these accidents happen in an aerobatic airplane?

And I know a third guy who died after a structural failure in an aerobatic plane (Scott Manning-BD-5). Didn’t know him well but it still sucked.

But hey, as long as you read some books and have enough altitude, you should be fine....

What caused the structural failure? If your wing falls of during straight and level flight, you won't be fine either, even though you should have been.

Plenty of well trained pilots have died and will die in a variety of accidents. No PPL student is fully prepared for every emergency they could encounter during their first solo. Yet we send them solo, because there is no realistic expectation for them to encounter something they shouldn't be able to handle.

A prepared pilot on a nice day with plenty of altitude in a proper aerobatic airplane should be able to fly a loop and a roll without overstressing the airplane if he wishes to do so.

If a pilot thinks he will be able to do that, he will be right.
If a pilot thinks he won't be able to do that, he will also be right.

[Bede]

A prepared pilot on a nice day with plenty of altitude in a proper aerobatic airplane should be able to fly a loop and a roll without overstressing the airplane if he wishes to do so.

I'm pretty sure I could do it too, but it's like one of those things: you don't know what you don't know.

I have a thing called a headline test. Would you look like a fool if something happened and your name was in a news headline?

[digits_]

A prepared pilot on a nice day with plenty of altitude in a proper aerobatic airplane should be able to fly a loop and a roll without overstressing the airplane if he wishes to do so.

I'm pretty sure I could do it too, but it's like one of those things: you don't know what you don't know.

I have a thing called a headline test. Would you look like a fool if something happened and your name was in a news headline?

Whether you took some aerobatic training or not, if you die, it's probably irrelevant whether you look like a fool or not.

That's the thing though: the books will tell you what you what you don't know, it's then up to you to decide if/how you want to deal with that.

What exactly do you think an aerobatic instructor will teach you, that you won't be able to find in books? Most aerobatic books are written by (ex)-instructors, in a structured way. Which you can study at your own pace. There will be details missing on how your particular airplane behaves, but an airplane is, generally, an airplane. If your airplane design is certified or designed for aerobatics, it will survive a loop or roll if not completely mismanaged. Start from there.

Le'ts say you fly with an instructor for 5 hours. You practice loops, rolls, hammerheads, spins. You're happy. Then you would like to do some snap rolls. Are you going to try it yourself, or are you going back for dual? Maybe you'd like to see how your plane behaves when spinning to the right instead of to the left, but you've only don it to the left, back to dual for more? Now you want to string some manouevres together into a sequence. Will you try it yourself, or back for more dual? Where does it end?

The discussion is not soo much only about aerobatic flying, but about being aware and comfortable with your own limitations. I took dual instruction when I bought my aerobatic airplane. To learn how to land it and not crash it on take off, that's what I was worried about. Other people might not have been. But having to run to an instructor every time you want to try or learn something new, is very limiting.

And the moral blackmail about being a fool because people have a differnt comfort level with regards to risk, doesn't help anyone either.

[Big Pistons Forever]

What exactly do you think an aerobatic instructor will teach you, that you won't be able to find in books? Most aerobatic books are written by (ex)-instructors, in a structured way.

As a Class 1 aerobatic instructor doing an initial aerobatic training I will do 2 things that no book can teach you

1) Experience aerobatic attitudes, especially inverted attitudes with me as a safety pilot to prevent you getting into a undesired aircraft state

2) Demonstrate how to recognize and recover from a deteriorating situation and a loss of controlled flight

My personal experience has been that pilots on their first flight are not prepared for how disorientating aerobatics can be and I will have to intervene on many of the initial attempts at maneuvers to avoid unacceptable departures from the ideal flight path. I don't know how many times i have seen new students start pulling when inverted and nose low. This is an example of how quickly you can get into trouble without an instructor to save you.

I also find that for most students the pilot controls are done in a "cookbook" fashion. That is 2 parts elevator 3 parts aileron, 1 part rudder and stir.
At around the 5 hour mark they start to be able to actually see what the airplane is doing during the maneuver and modify control inputs accordingly. At that point they start really having fun and their flying dramatically improves. It also gives me the confidence that even if they really screw the pooch they can see what is happening and react.

I personally don't see how it is possible to get to that "seeing the maneuver" and therefore the ability to safely recover from a botched maneuver without proper instruction.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I can't offer much on the topic, just my personal, inexperienced opinion. But I *can* offer my perspective as someone who is chomping at the bit to try aerobatics but is neither qualified nor capable yet.

Aside from spin training, the closest I've come to aerobatics is a few wingovers, and I've had the plane banked 90° once or twice, inadvertently, while rudder flying in a stall doing the "falling leaf" exercise. Pulled 4G at most recovering from a spin here and there. I was able to recover from a 90° bank with no trouble, and flying wingovers just whet my appetite for more. But more than one instructor has had to open my dive brakes because I didn't pull enough G pulling out and risked an overspeed.

Could I recover from being inverted? Sure. Could I turn that into an inverted spin if I confuse up with down? Sure. Can I recover from an inverted spin? Probably not. Do I know what to do if I run out of G at the top of a loop? Nope. I'm sure reading a few books on the subject can tell me everything I need to know, in theory. But putting that into practice - when the price of failure is death and the probability of it is not statistically insignficant - is another matter entirely. I just can't see myself ever attempting anything that could send me inverted or to pulling say, more than 4G, without someone demonstrating it to me first. Hell, I don't even know what would happen if I used the wrong rudder in a spin recovery. I've never done it.

All that said though, I am quite inexperienced, and others may feel differently. But I do think it's dangerous advice to post in a public forum "Oh, it's no biggie... just go up high enough and try it."

[digits_]

I personally don't see how it is possible to get to that "seeing the maneuver" and therefore the ability to safely recover from a botched maneuver without proper instruction.

I don't think "seeing the maneuver" is necessary to properly recover from a failed attempt or a random state. If you have the skills to recover from an unusal attitude, it doesn't matter how you ended up there, you'll be able to recover.

So how would one learn to recover from such attitudes? By practicing it, and preparing on the ground. You could start by stalling and spinning the plane in all attitudes you are comfortable with from previous training. After that, you can throw in some inverted flying. One example could be to start out by rolling the airplane, after reading a lot about it of course. You don't really care about perfection at this point, merely about surviving it without damaging the airplane. Kind of like your first solo. Most (all?) aerobatic airplanes have entry speeds defined somewhere on a placard an/or manual. So look at the entry speed for an aileron roll and a barrell roll, take the average value, and cruise at that speed. Now set climb power and climb about 20 degrees nose up. Roll the airplane to the left with full aileron. One you are right side up again, reduce power and evaluate whether you are descending or climbing. Assuming you are used to bank angles of +- 60 degrees, you'll only be out of your comfort zone for a few seconds, not long enough for the plane to get seriously out of control - unless you panick and go crazy on the controls-.

You can repeat that a few times untill you can fully see the maneuver so to speak. At that point, you can do it again, and try to fly inverted for a few seconds. And immediately continue to roll upright. See if the plane is fully under your control. Now you can start flying inverted longer and longer. Feel the effect of the rudder while flying inverted.

Next, go inverted and stall the plane inverted. Then enter an inverted spin and recover right away. You better have read up about inverted spins, and the recovery for your specific airplane at this point. But once you manage this, you should be able to try any maneuver with the confidence that you can get out of it if necessary. And you can really try to fly them properly. Aittude control during rolls, maintaining a straight line during loops etc.


Note that this might take much longer to reach the same level of competency than flying with a proper instructor. The self taught pilot might also reach a lower plateau in his skill level because nobody is giving him feedback. I'm merely disputing that people are fools for teaching themselves aerobatics.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Note that this might take much longer to reach the same level of competency than flying with a proper instructor. The self taught pilot might also reach a lower plateau in his skill level because nobody is giving him feedback.

Well I guess we both agree that it is definitely better to get aerobatic instruction than not.

However I firmly believe that it is foolish to try it yourself. There is no upside and I think you are underestimating the dangers of the downside of self instruction, messing up and not knowing how to recover….

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Assuming you are used to bank angles of +- 60 degrees, you'll only be out of your comfort zone for a few seconds, not long enough for the plane to get seriously out of control - unless you panick and go crazy on the controls-.

Many people, otherwise cool under fire as a mountain lake, are quite surprised at their own panic.

Next, go inverted and stall the plane inverted. Then enter an inverted spin and recover right away. You better have read up about inverted spins, and the recovery for your specific airplane at this point. But once you manage this, you should be able to try any maneuver with the confidence that you can get out of it if necessary.

And you'd better manage it on your first attempt, or you're dead.

Note that this might take much longer to reach the same level of competency than flying with a proper instructor. The self taught pilot might also reach a lower plateau in his skill level because nobody is giving him feedback. I'm merely disputing that people are fools for teaching themselves aerobatics.

I'm sorry - I generally have a lot of respect and reverence for your opinions, digits. But this advice you're giving here is downright dangerous, in my humble and admittedly inexperienced opinion. You are arguing that pilots should be more bold. How does that saying go, again?

[Conflicting Traffic]

What exactly do you think an aerobatic instructor will teach you, that you won't be able to find in books?

Well, why have flight instructors at all ? Why not just give a student pilot a textbook to read and then let them go figure it out in the airplane? That should work fine .

The problem here is that you don't understand learning and teaching (or maybe you do and you're just trolling?). For example, read up on Bloom's Taxonomy. Among other thing's, Bloom's model breaks learning into three domains: Cognitive (intellectual), Psychomotor (physical), and Affective (emotional/attitude). Learning to fly at any level involves learning in all three domains.

Books are a great place to start and to build a foundation of cognitive knowledge. But using books to learn in the other two domains is very limited. If you're learning something that's not potentially dangerous, you could totally teach yourself with a good book and some trial-and-error. But there are plenty of sensory-physical skills and emotional-response skills involved in aerobatics that you will never learn from a book -- you have to do it, and doing it for the first time involves the very real possibility of getting it completely wrong.

If your airplane design is certified or designed for aerobatics, it will survive a loop or roll if not completely mismanaged. Start from there.

What makes you so confident that someone trying a loop for the first time won't completely mismanage it? What do you recommend they do if/when they do mismanage it? Are you confident that they will even recognize the mismanagement before it's too late to keep the wings attached or avoid a spin or inverted spin?

I took dual instruction when I bought my aerobatic airplane. To learn how to land it and not crash it on take off, that's what I was worried about.

I don't understand. Why didn't you just read a book and teach it to yourself? I mean, as long as you don't mismanage the takeoff/landing and don't panic, everything will be fine.

Le'ts say you fly with an instructor for 5 hours. You practice loops, rolls, hammerheads, spins. You're happy. Then you would like to do some snap rolls. Are you going to try it yourself, or are you going back for dual? Maybe you'd like to see how your plane behaves when spinning to the right instead of to the left, but you've only don it to the left, back to dual for more? Now you want to string some manouevres together into a sequence. Will you try it yourself, or back for more dual? Where does it end?

But having to run to an instructor every time you want to try or learn something new, is very limiting.

These are fair points and are worth discussing. There needs to be point where someone has a foundation and can go out and expand their horizons with experience and unsupervised practice. Where we should draw the line between formal-instruction and experience-building is probably something we could discuss for many hours without coming to any kind of consensus. But I think anyone who's spent any time teaching basic aerobatics would agree that the line is definitively NOT at "I've never done aerobatics before, so I'm gonna read a book, get some altitude, try it out, and see what happens".

To be safely unsupervised, an aerobatic pilot needs to be proficient at remaining oriented and managing the aircraft through the full range of attitudes (360 by 360 pitch and roll), at recognizing when things are going sideways, and at recovering from errors (what the CAR's refer to as "unplanned aerobatic maneuvers", and we might call "unusual attitudes"). In terms of specific maneuvers, that means they need to be proficient at basic loops, aileron rolls, hammerheads, all spin types, and all unusual attitude types. I would suggest that that's a minimum. Ideally, the list should also include other roll types (barrel roll, slow roll, snaproll), and some basic combinations/sequences (Immelmann, split-S, Cuban-8).

Is it possible to teach yourself aerobatics? Sure, I have no doubt it's been done (as I understand from your post, you've done it). But that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

TO THE OP:
Please DO read about aerobatics in books. There are some good ones available, and they make a great starting point.
Please DO NOT proceed to trying it out on your own after you've finished your reading. Get an instructor, learn the basics, and then consider whether you want to continue with an instructor or build your proficiency on your own.

[digits_]

However I firmly believe that it is foolish to try it yourself. There is no upside and I think you are underestimating the dangers of the downside of self instruction, messing up and not knowing how to recover….

The biggest upside to me was that it was so much more fun. You have to treat it with respect, and prepare properly, but it's a geat feeling to see yourself progress.

It was also more practical to me. No hassle finding an aerobatic airplane and instructor, scheduling, driving for a few hours. It was also quite a cost saving, cost me 30 dollars to go up for half an hour and practice, instead of paying 300 dollars for an hour of flying of which half an hour would be to/from a practice area.

However, the biggest reason I started doing it myself, was that I could be in control the whole flight. I got nauseous/headaches quite quickly during aerobatic flight, which flight schools don't always like if you want to only fly 30 minutes of your one hour slot. My first flights were only 15 minutes long. I was also pretty scared actually to have another pilot flying aerobatics with me as a passenger. Didn't like not being in control. Still haven't ridden an upside down rollercoaster. So I started reading stuff, a lot of avcanada posts as well by the way, and decided to just go for it.

My previous exposure to aerobatic flight was a demo of a roll and a loop about 10 years ago, and another loop demo during my dual training to get the hang of the airplane.

It's easier than you think. More people do it than you would expect as well. But it's a bit taboo to talk about, so you might not always know. I've met 2 pilots who did something similar, or at least claim they did.

Assuming you are used to bank angles of +- 60 degrees, you'll only be out of your comfort zone for a few seconds, not long enough for the plane to get seriously out of control - unless you panick and go crazy on the controls-.

Many people, otherwise cool under fire as a mountain lake, are quite surprised at their own panic.

Well I guess you have to know yourself. I don't think I've ever physically panicked or given up at any point in my life. Scared shitless and stuff, absolutely, but never to the point I closed my eyes and gave up.

Next, go inverted and stall the plane inverted. Then enter an inverted spin and recover right away. You better have read up about inverted spins, and the recovery for your specific airplane at this point. But once you manage this, you should be able to try any maneuver with the confidence that you can get out of it if necessary.

And you'd better manage it on your first attempt, or you're dead.

Depends a lot on the airplane. It takes quite a bit of effort to keep some planes in an inverted spin. That's why it's important to read up on the airplane type you are planning on flying. Either way, with plenty of altitude and the Buegs Muller spin recovery technique, you're pretty safe. You generally won't die if you screw up the recovery.

Note that this might take much longer to reach the same level of competency than flying with a proper instructor. The self taught pilot might also reach a lower plateau in his skill level because nobody is giving him feedback. I'm merely disputing that people are fools for teaching themselves aerobatics.

I'm sorry - I generally have a lot of respect and reverence for your opinions, digits. But this advice you're giving here is downright dangerous, in my humble and admittedly inexperienced opinion. You are arguing that pilots should be more bold. How does that saying go, again?

Thank you. But I am not arguing that pilots should be more bold. Only that pilots should be allowed to prepare for flights that they would like to undertake, even if they fall outside of your comfort zone. Once could say that the whole notion of flying upside down is bold. Or crop dusting. Or waterbombing. Or dog fighting. Those activities carry risk with them, but that doesn't mean you are a fool if you want to enjoy them.

[digits_]

What exactly do you think an aerobatic instructor will teach you, that you won't be able to find in books?

Well, why have flight instructors at all ? Why not just give a student pilot a textbook to read and then let them go figure it out in the airplane? That should work fine .

The problem here is that you don't understand learning and teaching (or maybe you do and you're just trolling?). For example, read up on Bloom's Taxonomy. Among other thing's, Bloom's model breaks learning into three domains: Cognitive (intellectual), Psychomotor (physical), and Affective (emotional/attitude). Learning to fly at any level involves learning in all three domains.

Books are a great place to start and to build a foundation of cognitive knowledge. But using books to learn in the other two domains is very limited. If you're learning something that's not potentially dangerous, you could totally teach yourself with a good book and some trial-and-error. But there are plenty of sensory-physical skills and emotional-response skills involved in aerobatics that you will never learn from a book -- you have to do it, and doing it for the first time involves the very real possibility of getting it completely wrong.

Well for one it would be illegal to jump in a plane and teach yourself to fly.
It's also a completely new piece of machinery that you are learning to operate.

The difference of "never-having-flown" vs "first solo" is much bigger than a pilot trying out an aerobatic maneuver after reading about it. I'm not trying to convince anyone who is not comfortable doing this, to do it themselves, merely pointing out that it is an option that has had success, if you properly prepare and know yourself a bit.

If your airplane design is certified or designed for aerobatics, it will survive a loop or roll if not completely mismanaged. Start from there.

What makes you so confident that someone trying a loop for the first time won't completely mismanage it? What do you recommend they do if/when they do mismanage it? Are you confident that they will even recognize the mismanagement before it's too late to keep the wings attached or avoid a spin or inverted spin?

If you can recover from unusual attitudes, falling out of a loop would not be an issue. You'll simply end up in an unexpected unusual attitude.

I took dual instruction when I bought my aerobatic airplane. To learn how to land it and not crash it on take off, that's what I was worried about.

I don't understand. Why didn't you just read a book and teach it to yourself? I mean, as long as you don't mismanage the takeoff/landing and don't panic, everything will be fine.

Because the stuff I read about it, made me realize that I might not have been able to land the plane properly. There is also much less room for error while landing an airplane without room for recovery. Let go of the controls of an airplane while landing for 4 seconds, and you likely go off the runway. Let go of the controls for an airplane in the air for 4 seconds, and you'll most likely be able to recover.

[photofly]

I think if after taking instruction in aerobatics you found you prefer to teach the subject to yourself from books, you need to find a better instructor.

[PilotDAR]

Let go of the controls for an airplane in the air for 4 seconds, and you'll most likely be able to recover.

I have a different opinion, when it comes to aerobatic flight. A "delay" in control input could result in a very high AoA stall/tail slide, or a dive exceeding Vne. Both of these could be very damaging to most airplanes. A part of competent training will be knowing where the limits of getting it seriously wrong will be, and how to spot approaching them. I'm not comfortable that just reading could teach this well.

If you're considering aerobatic flight, look for the following elements: An airplane whose type permits this, which you will recognize because it'll have a limitations placard which describes each permitted areobatic maneuver, and be equipped with a G meter (and probably jettisonable doors - suggesting the wearing of a parachute). And, an instructing pilot who you believe to be competent to train these maneuvers.

I strongly believe in the benefit of competent training, and occasional practice. in spins, loops and rolls. These basis aerobatic skills are excellent for unusual attitude recovery. More advanced aerobatic maneuvers are not so vital, but certainly a piloting skill of themselves. All properly developed skills are worth having.

On the other hand, and alarmingly so, I was once accompanied during a design compliance test flight, in a school 172, by one of their Class 1 instructors. He was there, as the school had rules about checkouts, so sure, just come for the ride while I fly the plane through the required maneuvers. The plane was fine. I was on my way back from the training area. I half jokingly asked the instructor if there was anything else he wanted to see, alluding to the "checkout" element of the flight... He relied: "Would you show me a roll?" Ah, no! Not in this plane, nor with you in it. He seemed deflated. He seemed deflated by my denial. I though he was trying to trick me into something I should not do. I more realize that he just wanted to experience a roll. He didn't that day, and his approach to gaining experience was flawed. Following the flight, he wrote me a glowing checkout letter, and signed it as the school's safety officer!

There's a right way and a wrong way to experience and learn aerobatic flight.

[digits_]

I think if after taking instruction in aerobatics you found you prefer to teach the subject to yourself from books, you need to find a better instructor.

Maybe. I found it mainly refreshing. Most dual training I've taken because it was required by law, my employer or insurance. While some of the training was really interesting, especially the first few PPL and IFR flights, the majority was rather boring. Not necessarily the instructor's fault, but I really hate training that is defined by a minimum amount of hours spent on a certain task.

It was nice to be able to do something new by myself. I'd hate for other people to miss that opportunity just because they might not have been aware it is possible.

Let go of the controls for an airplane in the air for 4 seconds, and you'll most likely be able to recover.

I have a different opinion, when it comes to aerobatic flight. A "delay" in control input could result in a very high AoA stall/tail slide, or a dive exceeding Vne.

What's the danger of letting go of the controls in a high AoA situation for 4 seconds?

A dive and Vne might be another issue, but in the 'training' scenario I described, I don't think it's a realistic concern.

If you manage to get the plane in a position for a tail slide, and then you let go as it tail slides, yes you'll likely damage something. But if you have the skills to get it into a tail slide, you'd probably also have skills to know what to do to get it out. I find it highly unlikely you would encounter an involuntary tailslide while practicing rolls or inverted flight.

[Squaretail]

I think the most unfortunate part of aerobatic training is the difficulty of acquiring it, which is getting more so as time goes on. I have been fortunate to get some, and have been able to get to the level where I am considering getting my own aerobatic instructor rating, but I have found getting to that level is going to require my own aircraft for that purpose. Even then, finding an instructor is going to be difficult. So I can see where the impetus to do some self teaching comes from.

That said, if you take this route, reading helps a lot. I referred to Bill Thomas’s Fly For Fun a lot, and I feel it gave me a head start in the process.

[swervin]

If you're going to be flying a high performance aerobatic plane, you might as well at least get a full spin training course. The rest of the maneuver's you could safely teach yourself.

What are you flying digits?

[digits_]

If you're going to be flying a high performance aerobatic plane, you might as well at least get a full spin training course. The rest of the maneuver's you could safely teach yourself.

What are you flying digits?

A Pitts S1

[swervin]

Very nice. Who did you go to for your landing training? Budd Davisson seems to be the go to guy.