Flight Time Interpretation

[pitottubey]

I was recently in a discussion regarding logging flight time, specifically if you were to taxi out intending to do a run up and takeoff but the flight is unexpectedly cut short before you could takeoff due to unforeseen circumstances like the weather changed or there was a snag in the run up. I’ve heard various opinions on this and the CARs definition of flight time.

“(1) The term “Flight Time” is defined under subsection 101.01(1) of the CARs which states “flight time means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.“

[PilotDAR]

but the flight is unexpectedly cut short before you could takeoff due

If a flight is "cut short" before takeoff, it did not occur, so there was no flight time to be logged.

[photofly]

+1. It never came to rest at the end of the flight, if it didn’t fly.

[mintyfresh]

I would say yes as per the CARs, but I think it would depend on the circumstance. Personally if I started a 172, taxied for 5min, then returned due to weather, no I wouldn't log that. I think it would be trivial to log 10 min unless you want a record of the "flight" for one reason or another.

Picture this.
You're flying a 737 out of Toronto, you push back from the gate and start moving under your own power when all of a sudden you receive some caution message, so you stop on the apron. You spend 20 min on the phone with maintenance to troubleshoot and complete the MEL. Continue taxiing to De-Ice, wait for 30 min before its your turn followed by 10 min of type 1 and type 4. Now you've got to taxi 10 min to RWY 05. You wait for 2 inbound aircraft. Start your takeoff roll and for some reason you have to reject at V1 (Or lets say holding short of the runway you have to return to the gate for some reason). You taxi all the way back to the gate. You've spent over an hour managing the "flight".

Do you log it even though you didn't leave the ground?
I would.

Both scenarios result in you not leaving the ground, but with different workloads.

[PostmasterGeneral]

You still log flight time?

[Blowin' In The Wind]

Nothing to do with perceived workload. If you flew: log it. If not: don’t.

[digits_]

+1. It never came to rest at the end of the flight, if it didn’t fly.

Well that interpretation would lead to a flight time of many weeks, as you did start taxi to take off.

[mintyfresh]

"air time means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)"

"flight time means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)"

CARs definition of flight time does not say you must leave the surface. I say if the intent was there, then its considered flight time.

[Cessna 180]

I personally have logged all gate returns. It's infrequent either way.

[BTD]

I often remark to my FO when we are feeling a bit slow because it is a red eye, that at least we are logging the best kind of time.

Multi engine, jet, PIC, night cross country. If we are in a thin layer, then we get that sweet IMC time too.

[GRK2]

I would say yes as per the CARs, but I think it would depend on the circumstance. Personally if I started a 172, taxied for 5min, then returned due to weather, no I wouldn't log that. I think it would be trivial to log 10 min unless you want a record of the "flight" for one reason or another.

Picture this.
You're flying a 737 out of Toronto, you push back from the gate and start moving under your own power when all of a sudden you receive some caution message, so you stop on the apron. You spend 20 min on the phone with maintenance to troubleshoot and complete the MEL. Continue taxiing to De-Ice, wait for 30 min before its your turn followed by 10 min of type 1 and type 4. Now you've got to taxi 10 min to RWY 05. You wait for 2 inbound aircraft. Start your takeoff roll and for some reason you have to reject at V1 (Or lets say holding short of the runway you have to return to the gate for some reason). You taxi all the way back to the gate. You've spent over an hour managing the "flight".

Do you log it even though you didn't leave the ground?
I would.

Both scenarios result in you not leaving the ground, but with different workloads.

The big difference is the crew that did all of the above will get paid for it! Log it? Personally? No. (Your 172 pilot might not get a dime for it.)

[digits_]

I often remark to my FO when we are feeling a bit slow because it is a red eye, that at least we are logging the best kind of time.

Multi engine, jet, PIC, night cross country. If we are in a thin layer, then we get that sweet IMC time too.

Well... you were, your FO hopefully wasn't!

[donnybrook]

Not sure if I’m allowed to link to other forums but there has been a long term discussion concerning this very thing in helicopters. Basically, after much back and forth with TC, including rescinding a document clearly defining it, (I believe!) it means that once you leave the ground for the flight, including one with multiple stops but no shut down, you are logging the flight time until you land and shut down. In the helicopter world this would include the time running on the ground in a swamp while picking up crews etc. This is where flight time is different than air time with respect to aircraft technical logs as the time running on the ground would not be recorded as air time for the aircraft.

[porcsord]

Multi engine, jet, PIC, night cross country. If we are in a thin layer, then we get that sweet IMC time too.

I miss flying an amphibious Twin Otter for this reason. Multi-Turbine, Float, IFR, PIC, Night, X-C.

[Posthumane]

Not sure if I’m allowed to link to other forums but there has been a long term discussion concerning this very thing in helicopters. Basically, after much back and forth with TC, including rescinding a document clearly defining it, (I believe!) it means that once you leave the ground for the flight, including one with multiple stops but no shut down, you are logging the flight time until you land and shut down. In the helicopter world this would include the time running on the ground in a swamp while picking up crews etc. This is where flight time is different than air time with respect to aircraft technical logs as the time running on the ground would not be recorded as air time for the aircraft.

This is how is treated in my place of employment, at least for skid equipped helicopters. For wheeled helicopters, ground taxi time is also included in flight time, whereas air time is based on weight-off-wheels.

[BTD]

I often remark to my FO when we are feeling a bit slow because it is a red eye, that at least we are logging the best kind of time.

Multi engine, jet, PIC, night cross country. If we are in a thin layer, then we get that sweet IMC time too.

Well... you were, your FO hopefully wasn't!

Yeah. But it is a red eye so hopefully he/she won’t catch that verbal faux pas. I can see you are on the day shift.

[digits_]

I often remark to my FO when we are feeling a bit slow because it is a red eye, that at least we are logging the best kind of time.

Multi engine, jet, PIC, night cross country. If we are in a thin layer, then we get that sweet IMC time too.

Well... you were, your FO hopefully wasn't!

Yeah. But it is a red eye so hopefully he/she won’t catch that verbal faux pas. I can see you are on the day shift.

Oh in that case you can log anything you want my friend. Fligh time between midnight and 5:00 should count double.