Spamming AVCANADA with the same job postings won’t get you any more candidates for your positions than the mass carpet bombing inboxes increases prospects for applicants.

If your positions are going unfilled, they don’t pay enough.

End of story.

Mods can we make this a sticky pls.

I like this bob guy

Bob is making some strong points here. We like Bob.

Can we add: post the pay rate. If it says competitive compensation it isn’t. Why are you hiding it?

Aviatard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:08 am Can we add: post the pay rate. If it says competitive compensation it isn’t. Why are you hiding it?

Our company has one of the best pay rates in the country and I am forbidden to share it. Go figure.

CL-Skadoo! wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:56 pm

Aviatard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:08 am Can we add: post the pay rate. If it says competitive compensation it isn’t. Why are you hiding it?

Our company has one of the best pay rates in the country and I am forbidden to share it. Go figure.

Can you tell us where you work?

Aviatard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:08 am Can we add: post the pay rate

And a rough approximation of schedule. Small pay may be okay if I’m hardly ever working.

‘Bob’ needs to work for my union. May it be a lesson for all operators who post ads on repeat: inflation alone is the reason to pay more; the pilots deserve it.

Probably an impossible ask but maybe we should get the admin to not allow posts without pay scales in the jobs forum? One can dream!

+1 to OP. It’s not a dearth of jobs. It is a dearth of jobs that pay a liveable wage.

One of the most recent ads doesn’t even include a way to apply . No email or anything. Along with no location, no company name, no expected schedule, and no pay range. And doesn’t list the airplane types either.

How can people even apply when there’s no application information provided? Not that I’m interested…

PeterParker wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:18 pm Probably an impossible ask but maybe we should get the admin to not allow posts without pay scales in the jobs forum? One can dream!

+1 to OP. It’s not a dearth of jobs. It is a dearth of jobs that pay a liveable wage.

But, but, but,....."Nobody wants to work anymore!"

North Shore wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:21 pm

PeterParker wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:18 pm Probably an impossible ask but maybe we should get the admin to not allow posts without pay scales in the jobs forum? One can dream!

+1 to OP. It’s not a dearth of jobs. It is a dearth of jobs that pay a liveable wage.

But, but, but,....."Nobody wants to work anymore!"

Man, this forum needs a like button!

Let me understand this.

You want to see the pay scale so you can decide if you want to apply.
Demand AvCan to require it.

Is that what is referred to as entitlement?

Of course employers should post that. And none of the 200 hour wonders who think they should be starting at $100 k with 12 duty days a month will comment or criticize.

To be serious for a moment.
If you are qualified, and interested , apply. I am sure that working conditions and pay will be discussed.

I think the most important thing for an employer is to have a pay grid. The whole ‘we will pay you want we can negotiate’, is the fastest way for an employer to cause dissent.
Nothing likeLuke the Lazy making 50% more a month then harry hard worker.

Particularly small companies where the owners sometimes think that you are taking money right out their pockets….not putting it in.

In any event. No sane employer will listen to the demands of the entitled

Goes both ways in this market.

You expect me to leave my high paying job up north (because nobody else meets your experience requirements) but you don't even want to mention your salary range in the ad? You want me to take time out of my day and share all my personal info for a job that likely won't pay enough to interest me anyway?

Talk about entitlement

I honestly don't get why employers don't share a salary range. It would save both parties so much time.

It’s entirely correct and reasonable not to post the pay scale. No company wants their competitors to know what they pay, any more than they would advertise how much they pay to rent their hangar, their fuel contract price or any other commercially sensitive information.

Second reason: anyone who is encouraged to leave a job only because they see another has a higher salary is not the kind of employee any employer wants. Yes, every employer understands the desire to better one’s self, but if it’s true on the way in it’s true on the way out, too. So if what is not said in a job ad discourages the wrong sort of candidate from applying - it’s a good ad.

If you want to work somewhere, apply, and discuss salary terms.

a regional would be perfect fit then !

lownslow wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:41 pm

Aviatard wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:08 am Can we add: post the pay rate

And a rough approximation of schedule. Small pay may be okay if I’m hardly ever working.

normal industries / job ads DO share a salary range !

digits_ wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:39 pm Goes both ways in this market.

You expect me to leave my high paying job up north (because nobody else meets your experience requirements) but you don't even want to mention your salary range in the ad? You want me to take time out of my day and share all my personal info for a job that likely won't pay enough to interest me anyway?

Talk about entitlement

I honestly don't get why employers don't share a salary range. It would save both parties so much time.

photofly wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:21 am It’s entirely correct and reasonable not to post the pay scale. No company wants their competitors to know what they pay, any more than they would advertise how much they pay to rent their hangar, their fuel contract price or any other commercially sensitive information.

The irony is that companies likely know very well what other companies are paying.
Pilots usually also think they know what a company pays, based on information on avcanada. But that info is likely years old, and might be completely wrong. But it might still deter people from applying.

A good example of that were the Missinippi ads. If anyone would have asked me if they were a good company to work for, then I would have told them the pay wasn't the greatest, based on my info that was a few years old. Now they posted a job ad with a 100k - 130k salary, which puts them at the top in their region. If anyone now asks about Missinippi, the answer will be 'they seemed to have really improved their salary, might be worth to check it out'. It's likely other pilots have the same experiences.

photofly wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:21 am Second reason: anyone who is encouraged to leave a job only because they see another has a higher salary is not the kind of employee any employer wants. Yes, every employer understands the desire to better one’s self, but if it’s true on the way in it’s true on the way out, too. So if what is not said in a job ad discourages the wrong sort of candidate from applying - it’s a good ad.

How would delaying your salary reveal attract or discourage people who are only in it for the money? All you are doing is hiding a piece of information necessary to make a decision. I find it unlikely it would significantly affect a decision to work anywhere.

photofly wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:21 am If you want to work somewhere, apply, and discuss salary terms.

The market is changing again. Might as well say 'if you want me to work at your company, tell me what the salary is so we don't waste each other's time'.

digits_ wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:28 am The irony is that companies likely know very well what other companies are paying.

How? It's one thing to have a rough idea, another to see it officially published online.

Pilots usually also think they know what a company pays, based on information on avcanada. But that info is likely years old, and might be completely wrong. But it might still deter people from applying

A good example of that were the Missinippi ads. If anyone would have asked me if they were a good company to work for, then I would have told them the pay wasn't the greatest, based on my info that was a few years old. Now they posted a job ad with a 100k - 130k salary, which puts them at the top in their region. If anyone now asks about Missinippi, the answer will be 'they seemed to have really improved their salary, might be worth to check it out'. It's likely other pilots have the same experiences.
..

The entirety of your answer makes sense only from the perspective of someone who cares the most about money. I realize that describes most pilots, but it's still true.

Here it is, broken down:

If anyone would have asked me if they were a good company to work for, then I would have told them the pay wasn't the greatest,

But they didn't ask about the pay - they asked if they were a good company to work for, which you associate with pay.

If anyone now asks about Missinippi, the answer will be 'they seemed to have really improved their salary

Which is the obvious answer by and for anyone for whom money is the most important thing.

Might as well say 'if you want me to work at your company, tell me what the salary is so we don't waste each other's time'.

True, if salary is the first thing you use to decide whether you want a job or not. But it could be schedule, or location, or something else.

Think about someone who cares about shiny metal. Their approach might be "I asked them if they were a good company to work for but .. no, they have old airplanes - or, yes, they have a great fleet.. Then, they might say tell me up front what airplanes you fly we don't waste each other's time.

The market is changing again. Might as well say 'if you want me to work at your company, tell me what the salary is so we don't waste each other's time'.

And you think companies are bad, for their mercenary attitudes.

photofly wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:39 am How? It's one thing to have a rough idea, another to see it officially published online.

Good point. It would be mainly rumours from ex employees or applicants. Althought in a way one could say that the widespread rumours have more effect on a company's salary and hiring than what the actual salary is.

photofly wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:39 am
Think about someone who cares about shiny metal. Their approach might be "I asked them if they were a good company to work for but .. no, they have old airplanes - or, yes, they have a great fleet.. Then, they might say tell me up front what airplanes you fly we don't waste each other's time.

True, but that information is factually available on the TC registry, and likely on the company's website. And often present in the job ad. Even if it is not advertised, you can find it. You don't need rumours for that.

The entirety of your answer makes sense only from the perspective of someone who cares the most about money. I realize that describes most pilots, but it's still true.

Not really. There are flying jobs I would, realistically, never ever do again, not even if they paid double or tripple. Other people might if the money's good.

This turns it into a philosophical discussion a bit, but most people go to work every day to make money. I think we can agree salary is an important factor of any job. It's also the one factor that is missing from most job ads. Other factors such as airplane type are often mentioned. Bases and schedule are also frequently mentioned. Salary rarely is.


In my mind -which is a twisted place- I find many smilarities with companies advertising products without a price. If it's not advertised, it's likely overpriced.
If a job ad doesn't mention the pay, it's likely too low.

photofly wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:39 am

The market is changing again. Might as well say 'if you want me to work at your company, tell me what the salary is so we don't waste each other's time'.

And you think companies are bad, for their mercenary attitudes.

I don't think they are bad, I think they are being inefficient and I don't understand what they hope to accomplish by hiding the salary.

It gives the impression -to me- that they are very insecure about the salary they are offering.

Generally, if you want something that is hard to find (such as experienced float drivers or medevac pilots), you want to make your job ad as attractive as possible to attract as many candidates as possible. A salary posting would help a lot in that regards IMO.

digits_ wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:54 am
In my mind -which is a twisted place- I find many smilarities with companies advertising products without a price. If it's not advertised, it's likely overpriced.
If a job ad doesn't mention the pay, it's likely too low.

Almost all companies advertise products without a price. The ones that headline prices are competing on price, and looking for a particular class of customer. The ones that don't are competing on something else, and looking for a different class of customer.

Overpriced is simply a value judgement in the eye of the individual purchaser. I'm happy to pay a premium for lots of functionally equivalent products that are differentiated by factors important to me, but unimportant to others. Same with jobs.

Companies advertising their salaries in job ads are selecting against one class of candidate. They are excluding the entire class of candidates who say "if you don't tell me up front how much, I won't bother to apply", and that can be a deliberate and beneficial exclusion. The company may be such that if you're the sort of pilot who's first question about a job is "how much" - we don't want you to apply.

Advertising a service (or a job) is as much about discouraging contact from unsuitable customers (and candidates) as attracting the right ones. If you find yourself complaining that a job ad doesn't attract you - that might be a deliberate thing, from the employer's perspective. The ad might be perfect, and you might be the problem.