To the Airlines
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
To the Airlines
We all understand the weather can throw a wrench into things.
But stop selling tickets if not you do have the people to crew them. The CSRs and ground staff.
And stop treating people like idiots.
My flight tonight. As scheduled. Boarding at 20.50.
At 20.52 announcement there was no flight crew and that it would be three hours before a crew arrived!
Why would you wait to tell people? No question you knew that our flight was not going to depart on time..
Even with my old failing eyesight I could see the cockpit was empty.
It’s time the Govt stepped in and stopped ticket sales for the next two weeks until all the stranded pax have been moved.
Rant ended. Now looking forward to flying with a crew at the end of their duty day, in the middle of night, and bad weather. What could go wrong!
But stop selling tickets if not you do have the people to crew them. The CSRs and ground staff.
And stop treating people like idiots.
My flight tonight. As scheduled. Boarding at 20.50.
At 20.52 announcement there was no flight crew and that it would be three hours before a crew arrived!
Why would you wait to tell people? No question you knew that our flight was not going to depart on time..
Even with my old failing eyesight I could see the cockpit was empty.
It’s time the Govt stepped in and stopped ticket sales for the next two weeks until all the stranded pax have been moved.
Rant ended. Now looking forward to flying with a crew at the end of their duty day, in the middle of night, and bad weather. What could go wrong!
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: To the Airlines
The real question is why are airlines struggling to find pilots to crew their aircraft at the first place?
Trust me, we hate hearing those stories and most of us want to help you in this situation. Unfortunately most airlines have been treated their crews so bad expecting them to go above and beyond that at some point… crews had enough. The government won’t help, if anything, it is the reason why you’re having the problem you currently have.
Trust me, we hate hearing those stories and most of us want to help you in this situation. Unfortunately most airlines have been treated their crews so bad expecting them to go above and beyond that at some point… crews had enough. The government won’t help, if anything, it is the reason why you’re having the problem you currently have.
Re: To the Airlines
My issue is the corporate mentality that is directing this. And yes, glad I am out to pasture and was able to fly in the good old days. And they were good.
They have to get some management that knows how to actually operate an airline.
They have to get some management that knows how to actually operate an airline.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: To the Airlines
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post.
Re: To the Airlines
And those that can’t think beyond slogans seldom solve problems
You should be a bit careful who you infer does not know.
Looks like WestJet got the memo. Proactively cancelled all flights to Vancouver tomorrow. Good on them. It is a tough decision but the right one.
You should be a bit careful who you infer does not know.
Looks like WestJet got the memo. Proactively cancelled all flights to Vancouver tomorrow. Good on them. It is a tough decision but the right one.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
- oldncold
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Re: To the Airlines
talkn to a friend today, said many of the smaller non sked charter companies phones ringing off the wall since tuesday, in yvr yyc to get folks out of bc if they had cash on the barrel or cc with enough room . i flew thru yvr airpace today and it was like the first 6 weeks of covid back in spring 2020. ghostly quiet. want to go direct no problem today . atc had time to chat even . airsprint and other corp owners rescuing their own family and extended family stuck in airline limbo if you didnt need a gate in yvr peace of cake last 3 days for runway 8r or 26l yvr .
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Re: To the Airlines
The "Gate Agent" wouldn't have two clues about there not being any Pilots. They likely received a call from STOC 1 minute prior to the PA. They are busy doing what Gate Agents do, trying to get asses into seats on continually oversold flights.
Why are there no Pilots? The answer is simple, post 9-11 it turned into a shit career that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Employers exploited Pilots paying less than Mcdonalds. The tide has turned but still a shortage coming through the schools. It has turned into a rich kids game with the incredible cost and the initial pay has not improved.
Now AC and WJ are on a massive hiring spree and sucking everyone else dry, I would recommend avoiding Jazz as they have an extreme Pilot shortage.
Every Pilot in this country is hoping the border opens to the US, then they can turn out the lights on Aviation in Canada!
Why are there no Pilots? The answer is simple, post 9-11 it turned into a shit career that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Employers exploited Pilots paying less than Mcdonalds. The tide has turned but still a shortage coming through the schools. It has turned into a rich kids game with the incredible cost and the initial pay has not improved.
Now AC and WJ are on a massive hiring spree and sucking everyone else dry, I would recommend avoiding Jazz as they have an extreme Pilot shortage.
Every Pilot in this country is hoping the border opens to the US, then they can turn out the lights on Aviation in Canada!
- rookiepilot
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Re: To the Airlines
Funny these constant issues aren’t real for most — delays, or the 10 hours I know of someone spending stuck on an airplane on YVR’s ramp — or even worse, they are butt of CBC - hysteria type jokes, until it happens to you.
Only a 3 hour delay? Hardly newsworthy.
You guys should think about having some sympathy for the elderly, moms and little kids caught up in someone else’s incompetence, when it goes really wrong.
My $.02
Hey, YVR’s CEO was “pleased”.
YVR CEO 'pleased' with airport's performance after tarmac chaos
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/high ... os-6294576
Only a 3 hour delay? Hardly newsworthy.
You guys should think about having some sympathy for the elderly, moms and little kids caught up in someone else’s incompetence, when it goes really wrong.
My $.02
Hey, YVR’s CEO was “pleased”.

YVR CEO 'pleased' with airport's performance after tarmac chaos
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/high ... os-6294576
Re: To the Airlines
Airports are operated as not-for-profit enterprises and have become bloated, inefficient and worst of all not accountable to the travelling public. Airports are treated as cash-cows by the Federal Government instead of vital National infrastructure, we’ve seen this week how much people depend on them, and how they’ve failed. We could have a gold-standard, envied around the globe, standard of air travel if the government supported every air traveller with the same subsidy provided per passenger to VIA rail or public transit.
The delays that airlines are blamed for are mostly a result of the airport authorities not being able to maintain operations. Runway, taxiway, apron, de-Icing capacity capacity are all 100% out the the airlines control, not to mention bridges that fail in snowy/windy conditions, runways without CAT II/III capability and lighting. Additionally, airlines provide customs with passenger numbers and departure and arrival times, would you say they properly staffed for peak periods?
Is it reasonable for an airport to be able to maintain 100% of its normal operations in a blizzard? No it isn’t. On the other end of the scale, was the complete failure in YVR last week acceptable? I don’t believe it was.
Airlines have a huge role to play, obviously, but making them the scapegoat for all the delays isn’t reasonable either. How is an airline supposed to anticipate weather this horrendous across the entire country the week before Christmas? What about the airport authorities? Should YVR continuously maintain the same winter operations capability as YYZ for the weather that happens once a decade?
WJ cancelled all flights after 10am in YYZ today (certainly a tough decision for them to make). However, AC flew a reduced schedule based on the forecasted airport capacity, as they routinely do when extreme weather is forecast. Who inconvenienced their passengers more? I watched a couple hundred people complete their holiday travel plans with only a (relatively) small delay.
Kudos to all the hard working pilots safely transporting passengers all over the world in these difficult conditions, hope you can all enjoy some time with your families and can tune out the static from those who have no clue what it’s like to do what we do.
The delays that airlines are blamed for are mostly a result of the airport authorities not being able to maintain operations. Runway, taxiway, apron, de-Icing capacity capacity are all 100% out the the airlines control, not to mention bridges that fail in snowy/windy conditions, runways without CAT II/III capability and lighting. Additionally, airlines provide customs with passenger numbers and departure and arrival times, would you say they properly staffed for peak periods?
Is it reasonable for an airport to be able to maintain 100% of its normal operations in a blizzard? No it isn’t. On the other end of the scale, was the complete failure in YVR last week acceptable? I don’t believe it was.
Airlines have a huge role to play, obviously, but making them the scapegoat for all the delays isn’t reasonable either. How is an airline supposed to anticipate weather this horrendous across the entire country the week before Christmas? What about the airport authorities? Should YVR continuously maintain the same winter operations capability as YYZ for the weather that happens once a decade?
WJ cancelled all flights after 10am in YYZ today (certainly a tough decision for them to make). However, AC flew a reduced schedule based on the forecasted airport capacity, as they routinely do when extreme weather is forecast. Who inconvenienced their passengers more? I watched a couple hundred people complete their holiday travel plans with only a (relatively) small delay.
Kudos to all the hard working pilots safely transporting passengers all over the world in these difficult conditions, hope you can all enjoy some time with your families and can tune out the static from those who have no clue what it’s like to do what we do.
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Re: To the Airlines
Your first paragraph is spot on.
The world over, air travel is still considered a luxury.
It's moments like these that people realise it's an integral part of the national infrastructure.
The industry is taxed to death with minimal return investment.
I echo your sentiments on subsidies. Every form of mass transportation is subsidised by some government entity or another. That is the only way for it to survive. There's a reason why airlines bleed more money than they make.
The world over, air travel is still considered a luxury.
It's moments like these that people realise it's an integral part of the national infrastructure.
The industry is taxed to death with minimal return investment.
I echo your sentiments on subsidies. Every form of mass transportation is subsidised by some government entity or another. That is the only way for it to survive. There's a reason why airlines bleed more money than they make.
Screw you hippies!!!!
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Re: To the Airlines
Saying they don't have crew, doesn't always mean pilot. All it takes is one FA to book off last minute and now you don't have enough crew.
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Re: To the Airlines
Nothing will ever change, the problem has always been, and forever will be pay. The new caveat to this is newer generations don’t put up with the crap mine and previous ones did in the industry. Almost 30% of Canadas workforce changed careers during the pandemic, I wonder how many walked away from pilot and AME positions after they were thrown away like garbage during the pandemic.
There are more than enough licenses out there and experienced guys to fill these positions domestically, where there is a shortage, is the amount that are willing to work for the miserable wages and working conditions these companies offer. Airlines have caused this problem and I doubt they will change things much at all until employment laws change in Canada. I have zero sympathy for the situation the industry is in, as far as I’m concerned, I fly N reg’d as much as possible.
There are more than enough licenses out there and experienced guys to fill these positions domestically, where there is a shortage, is the amount that are willing to work for the miserable wages and working conditions these companies offer. Airlines have caused this problem and I doubt they will change things much at all until employment laws change in Canada. I have zero sympathy for the situation the industry is in, as far as I’m concerned, I fly N reg’d as much as possible.
Re: To the Airlines
Well said, I couldn’t agree more with you!Stu Pidasso wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:08 pm The "Gate Agent" wouldn't have two clues about there not being any Pilots. They likely received a call from STOC 1 minute prior to the PA. They are busy doing what Gate Agents do, trying to get asses into seats on continually oversold flights.
Why are there no Pilots? The answer is simple, post 9-11 it turned into a shit career that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Employers exploited Pilots paying less than Mcdonalds. The tide has turned but still a shortage coming through the schools. It has turned into a rich kids game with the incredible cost and the initial pay has not improved.
Now AC and WJ are on a massive hiring spree and sucking everyone else dry, I would recommend avoiding Jazz as they have an extreme Pilot shortage.
Every Pilot in this country is hoping the border opens to the US, then they can turn out the lights on Aviation in Canada!
Re: To the Airlines
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/sout ... 10920.html
Apparently SouthWest was responsible for 50% of cancelled flights across the globe today…
Apparently SouthWest was responsible for 50% of cancelled flights across the globe today…
Welcome to Redneck Airlines. We might not get you there but we'll get you close!
Re: To the Airlines
You are absolutely correct. A tad narrow minded on my part. Since there are more pilots than FAs hanging out on that website I figured it was mostly targeted to the front end. But yes you’re right. My bad.
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Re: To the Airlines
WestJet had to deal with a crewing shortage on top of the weather. They were hit by the storms out west which left many crews out of base and low on time. Then they saw the writing on the wall in Toronto and decided to take a reset day so that they could focus their energy on a quick restart instead of days or weeks of recovery.TheStig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:57 pm WJ cancelled all flights after 10am in YYZ today (certainly a tough decision for them to make). However, AC flew a reduced schedule based on the forecasted airport capacity, as they routinely do when extreme weather is forecast. Who inconvenienced their passengers more?
It was a painful decision that hurt many, but I believe that it was the right one in the long term to save many more.
Re: To the Airlines
Zero sympathy for Canadian airlines here. As mentioned above they brought it on themselves.Very poor performance. Embarrassing. Could see it coming a mile away. The two big ones could not keep it together even when the weather was fine. Everyone whining about winter?? Where you been the last 100 years? Preparation is key and is what gets you through. Anybody with any common sense knows that. What a massive sh## show.
Re: To the Airlines
Every time, is the first time, for airlines in Canada 

Gravity always wins
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Re: To the Airlines
So in short, not enough staff because they all pay dog sh1taverageatbest wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:21 amWestJet had to deal with a crewing shortage on top of the weather. They were hit by the storms out west which left many crews out of base and low on time. Then they saw the writing on the wall in Toronto and decided to take a reset day so that they could focus their energy on a quick restart instead of days or weeks of recovery.TheStig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:57 pm WJ cancelled all flights after 10am in YYZ today (certainly a tough decision for them to make). However, AC flew a reduced schedule based on the forecasted airport capacity, as they routinely do when extreme weather is forecast. Who inconvenienced their passengers more?
It was a painful decision that hurt many, but I believe that it was the right one in the long term to save many more.
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Re: To the Airlines
It’s disgusting what the industry is now compared to 20 years agobillhill wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:34 am Zero sympathy for Canadian airlines here. As mentioned above they brought it on themselves.Very poor performance. Embarrassing. Could see it coming a mile away. The two big ones could not keep it together even when the weather was fine. Everyone whining about winter?? Where you been the last 100 years? Preparation is key and is what gets you through. Anybody with any common sense knows that. What a massive sh## show.
- rookiepilot
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Re: To the Airlines
Must be the passengers fault. Just must be.
Every delay, weather event, even every accident, is the fault of those cheap stingy passengers.
Every delay, weather event, even every accident, is the fault of those cheap stingy passengers.
Re: To the Airlines
Seems to me this all started out West. When the 3rd largest airport in the country can't move traffic, can't clear gates, when they are running only 1/2 the deice bays and apparently at half rate and they still run out of Type 1 fluid a day into it all what do you expect?
And it's not the first time - it's every time!
These guys are running flow control on clear, calm summer nights with 2 runways and an arrival rate that is suboptimal for a single runway airport.
Can't believe the YVR CEO was so out of touch on their performance.
It snowballed all week from the YVR fiasco.
Sure the airlines slow down in the weather, but when the infrastructure can't support it, when the infrastructure won't operate, when the money goes towards art installations, water fountains, and unaccountable CEO raises that's what you get...
And it's not the first time - it's every time!
These guys are running flow control on clear, calm summer nights with 2 runways and an arrival rate that is suboptimal for a single runway airport.
Can't believe the YVR CEO was so out of touch on their performance.
It snowballed all week from the YVR fiasco.
Sure the airlines slow down in the weather, but when the infrastructure can't support it, when the infrastructure won't operate, when the money goes towards art installations, water fountains, and unaccountable CEO raises that's what you get...
- rookiepilot
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm
Re: To the Airlines
$1.3 million salary…..so as reported. Must be nice, eh?altiplano wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:59 pm Seems to me this all started out West. When the 3rd largest airport in the country can't move traffic, can't clear gates, when they are running only 1/2 the deice bays and apparently at half rate and they still run out of Type 1 fluid a day into it all what do you expect?
And it's not the first time - it's every time!
These guys are running flow control on clear, calm summer nights with 2 runways and an arrival rate that is suboptimal for a single runway airport.
Can't believe the YVR CEO was so out of touch on their performance.
It snowballed all week from the YVR fiasco.
Sure the airlines slow down in the weather, but when the infrastructure can't support it, when the infrastructure won't operate, when the money goes towards art installations, water fountains, and unaccountable CEO raises that's what you get...
Re: To the Airlines
Right? YYZ CEO just gave themself a fat raise too.
What have these people actually done to earn that raise? To make travel more efficient and affordable. All they have done is make it more expensive, higher departure fees, landing fees, gate fees, parking and make it less efficient with cuts to operational staff, more procedures, more restrictions, pdc bs, escalators that never work...
And that's just day to day, never mind the complete lack of resiliency in their systems of operation.
To me that ought to be dismissed, not lifted up.
What have these people actually done to earn that raise? To make travel more efficient and affordable. All they have done is make it more expensive, higher departure fees, landing fees, gate fees, parking and make it less efficient with cuts to operational staff, more procedures, more restrictions, pdc bs, escalators that never work...
And that's just day to day, never mind the complete lack of resiliency in their systems of operation.
To me that ought to be dismissed, not lifted up.
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Re: To the Airlines
The CEOs job isn’t to ensure a good product. They’re there to maximize revenue and share value. Late stage capitalism isn’t going away anytime soon.altiplano wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:34 pm Right? YYZ CEO just gave themself a fat raise too.
What have these people actually done to earn that raise? To make travel more efficient and affordable. All they have done is make it more expensive, higher departure fees, landing fees, gate fees, parking and make it less efficient with cuts to operational staff, more procedures, more restrictions, pdc bs, escalators that never work...
And that's just day to day, never mind the complete lack of resiliency in their systems of operation.
To me that ought to be dismissed, not lifted up.